Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hi All

Have a new truck(413 lwb truck )looking at doing a spoa,I wont to know who can sell me hi steer arms/and would be willing to send them to the land of many sheep

Cheers Simon

overkill engineering

sells high steer kits

plus he had a second hand highsteer of his rig (changed diffs so the highsteer was not needed) for sale pm or ring him

number is in my sig

Mercedes Benz Model 126

Use their steering arms and bolt them to the Brake caliper mount.

Bazooka wrote:Mercedes Benz Model 126

Use their steering arms and bolt them to the Brake caliper mount.

More info please
Do you know which year and class ??
Table below from http://home.hiwaay.net/~gbf/mbmodels.html


126 S-Class Sedans Chassis Engine Model Years HP Weight WB
W126.032 M116.961 V8 380SE 1984-85 155 3685
W126.033 M116.961 V8 380SEL 1981-83 155 3640 121.1"
W126.035 M116.965 V8 420SEL 1986-91 201 3850
W126.037 M116.963 V8 500SEL 1984-85 184 3730
W126.039 M117.968 V8 560SEL 1986-91 238 4125
W126.120 M617.951 I5 300SD Turbodiesel 1981-85 120 3625
W126.125 M603.961 I6 300SDL Turbodiesel 1986-87 148 3835
126.025 103.981 I6 300SEL 1988-91 177 3630
126.024 103.981 I6 300SE 1989-91 177 3585
126.135 603.970 I6 350SDL Turbodiesel 1990-91 134 3850
126.134 603.970 I6 350SD Turbodiesel 1991 134

W126 Coupes Chassis Engine Model Years HP Weight
W126.043 M116.961 V8 380SEC 1982-83 155 3760
W126.044 M117.963 V8 500SEC 1984-85 187 3655
W126.045 M117.968 V8 560SEC 1986-91 238 3960

i had one of these arms but never got around to fitting it

was easy to find from a merc wrecker

will post pics when i get home

info is on this board and pirate

N*A*M wrote:i had one of these arms but never got around to fitting it

was easy to find from a merc wrecker

will post pics when i get home

info is on this board and pirate

Come on N*A*M where are the pics ??

Here are a few pics of what they look like and how they are mounted.

The numbers on them are 1616 and 1617. Any Merc Wrecker should know what too look for.

Thanks Bazooka

Hi,

If you will be using the MBZ arms, the Zuk tie rod end will fit in the hole but is actually a different taper and needs to be rebored to retain the original strength.

We do right and left hand drive

Where did you get my ZUK picture of the steering and who put it here ?

Hi Jeff,

Is that your rig?

I found those pictures while I was researching the Merc arms for myself. Cant remember where I found the pics now, it was a while ago.

HI,

Yes,

That is a pic of one of my samurais with the standard SPOA crossover steering systems, actually it was one of the first VW diesel conversions I did about 8 years ago. We have been doing the "Hi-Link" crossover steering systems for just about as long, you may have seen our original post on a different loop regarding the MBZ arms and how they are used. We sell systems for the standard SPOA lift that raise the tie rod and drag link up 4 inches or have the option of the "Hi-LInk" Extreme systems for those who have lift shackles, YJ or lift springs and about any other kind of lift that will raise the tie rod and drag link up 5 and 6 inches. We can configure these "Hi-Link" Extreme steering systems for either right or left hand drive. Visit our website and see the photo of the "Hi-Link" Extreme system installed on one of our project samurais.

Let me know if you need any other info

Hi Guys

With using the Merc arms does it affect you steering on road?
Do you have to change the length of the drag link or tie rod ?
Certification here in NZ means if it's welded (Steering parts)it would have to be X-rayed,More $
A local 4x4 shop said 500$+ for high steer with what looked like Merc arms but this included custom drag and tie rod.

Thanks for the help
Simon

simonwalker wrote:Hi Guys

With using the Merc arms does it affect you steering on road?
Do you have to change the length of the drag link or tie rod ?
Certification here in NZ means if it's welded (Steering parts)it would have to be X-rayed,More $
A local 4x4 shop said 500$+ for high steer with what looked like Merc arms but this included custom drag and tie rod.

Thanks for the help
Simon

I believe that the seering arms are bolted on with the brake caliper.
The taper needs to be altered where the tierod ends go through the steer arms with a reamer or somthing else.

I would probably use mbz tie rod ends and have a new tie rod either made or sourced from another application that fits.

just use a calmini drop pitman arm, its ok for certification in NZ as i've done it. about $NZ350, and it was on my door step within 5 day from the USA.
And your zook will actually drive better than stock .

We have been using these for years and make the samurais handle very well on or off road and will eliminate your bumpsteer created when you perform the SPOA lift.
When you utilize the MBZ arms both the tie rod and drag link need to be shortened, length also depends on if your rig is SJ410 or SJ413. The tapered tie rod hole needs to be re-reamed to fit the zuk taper and one of the mounting bolt holes in each arm needs to be opened up a bit. We do them all on our mill and turn out real nice. We sell complete units with new DOM tubing for $250 USD

If you ever saw the MBZ tie rod ends you may think twice about using them, they look about half the size of the zuk.

Looking over the application list of MBZ models posted previously, I see there are some 300 diesels listed there, even tho they mount the same, those arms are a bit different and if you try to use them your tie rod will rub the top of the springs at 3/4 turn.

Jeff I couldnt of put it better myself.

The MBZ arms are so simple. Doing the whole Histeer conversion myself this way cost me $40. That was the price of the MBZ arms. The drag link and tie rod both need to be cut shorter and the rod ends re tapped into the ends. No welding required and totally legal. The taper on the MBZ arms is pretty close so as Jeff said a simple reaming to get them perfect.

Hey Guys. This is some good tech on merc arms - the best I've seen so far.
I'm doing a SPOA at the moment, and I'm planning on using these arms.

I've got a question for you guys who've reamed them. What size is the taper for the zuk tie rod end? And what is the merc taper if anyone knows that too?

I'm fitting celica power steering (with a YR21 Tarago/Lite-Ace pitman arm) so I will make a new tierod to match the Toyota taper in the pitman arm, and maybe the Merc taper if I can find a good sized merc TRE, or I'll ream it out to fit a zuk TRE. - I'm not going full hi-steer at this stage.

Just a note - using two of these arms to do hi-steer will reverse your ackerman angles and give you anti-ackerman. Probably not such a big issue on a zuk doing low speeds though.

Ben

BenT wrote:Just a note - using two of these arms to do hi-steer will reverse your ackerman angles and give you anti-ackerman. Probably not such a big issue on a zuk doing low speeds though.
Ben

But why is this so ??

Hey Ben,

I dont know the sizes of the tapers but the difference is bugger all Many dont even bother to fix it. I had a mate who works at a machine shop do mine so he worked it all out. Im sure Jeff knows the answer.

If your using a YR21 tarago pitman ar then you will need a bush machined to reduce the hole size to the Sierra taper. There is quite a big difference in size here.

I was wondering how long it would be before someone mentioned "Ackerman". I think most people forget about it and dont notice any difference in steering because the Sierra handles like a boat at the best of times. You are right that the wheels will now move in the wrong directions to one another. In fact I think the MBZ arms put the tie rod ends near parallel with the king pin meaning zero ackerman. I suppose if you really care about it then adjusting the toe in/out might help. Suppose it cant be any worse than trying to turn corners with a welded rear diff

Why?? Well....

Whe you turn a sharp corner, you need the inside wheel to turn slightly sharper than the outside wheel, as the inside wheel is running around a smaller diameter arc than the outer. To do this, you have to have your steering arms set up so that if you drew a straight line through your steering arm end pivot and kingpin axis it would intersect the centre of the rear diff. Mr Ackerman figured this out.

On a normal car, the steering arms are usually behind the knuckle and inboard of the kingpin pivot axis, so that they line up with the centre of the rear axle. On a zuk the steering arms are in front of the diff, so the steering arm tie rod end pivot point is outboard of the kingpin axis to still give you ackerman. If you put merc arms on the tie rod pivot point is much further in, actually inboard of the kinpin, so the ackerman ends up the wrong way around, and becomes "anti-ackerman"
This means the outer wheel turns slightly more than the inside - moreso the more lock you have on the steering, and so the two front wheels end up fighting each other at high steering angles.

Ok after typing all that crap I found a link on google that has a picture. check it out.
http://www.rctek.com/handling/ackerman_ ... ciple.html

Ben

Yes I know how the ackerman principle works.

As I said most people just dont care about it and do it anyway.

Yes it would stuff these angles up, how badly it does it is unknown to me.

To get around all this mess would be to use one MBZ arm on the passenger side linking the drag link and use the tie rod in its original location. this way you end up with a cross over steering system and the ackerman angle remains unchanged. Correct??? However this would give the drag link end a bad angle seeing it is now verticle in the MBZ arm and not horizontal. But its vertical at the other end in the pitman arm so it may work. Now im just rambling and typing everything that comes to mind.

Oh and that link Ben posted is excellent at explaining all this jibberish.

My zook already understeers in corners, so using mbz steering arms will make the problem worse ??

Like I have said before, we have been running these for years, I know a crazy man that has this system on his Samurai, he frequently runs it near 100mph and offroads it on the trails too, he says they corner better than stock.

It does not matter what kind of aftermarket hi steer system you use, none of them retain the stock ackerman principles because the arms we all use are all inside the trunion and all the factory setups run in line or outside as stated. In the original suzuki application they kinda run inside the wheel and if you tried to put a hi steer arm in there by the time you located it where you want it, it would only be 2 inches long.

If you are a true diehard ackerman pureist then any modification of a 4x4 steering/suspension is not for you. There are comprimises to any modification of any part on any vehicle, you need to figure out what you want and what comprimises you can live with/without and go from there. Everyone I talk to does not seem to care much about ackerman, but every once in a while a rig ends upside down or in the ditch, usually the drivers fault, not the type of steering system. My experience is you will not be able to notice any difference at all in how the MBZ arms steer on or off road while sitting in the drivers seat.

The problem with using only one arm is you will loose the combined strength you get when you have two arms, one on each side and from my perspective I would rather steer with four bolts than relying on the one arm steering the whole thing with only two bolts.

The Suzuki taper is 1.5 inches per foot same as the smaller toyota trucks[and celica] and we use a spiral flute to ream them. The MBZ taper is less, 1.27 inches per foot.

Hi Guys

All this info is great, I'm getting inspired to do something,one last trip in the old Zuk before pulling all the parts off and getting to work on the truck

Cheers Simon

There was an error in one of the last figures regarding the MBZ taper, I wrote that "The MBZ taper is less, 1.27 inches per foot." It should have read 1.127 inches per foot.

If anybody needs any MBZ arms all machined and ready to bolt on with new bolts let me know.

You guys are dead right, the ackerman issue isn't woth worrying about on a wee zuk. I'm not saying these arms are no good, I just find it interesting and thought someone might like to know

I was planning on doing the new tie rod plan bazooka, but now Jeff has a really good point about the load being shared when using two arms.

Jeff, thanks heaps for the taper info!

Bazooka, have you moved the front diff forward? If so do you get any interference between the drag link and the tie rod end at the pitman arm? That would be one of the good things about only using one MBZ arm - there would never be any interference with the steering links.

Ben

If your axle is moved forward and you are using the MBZ arms with the Zuk rods, the tie rod and drag link will interfere with each other for sure when you make your turns, been there, done that.

If you like the "Hi-Link" Extreme system like we manufacture, there is a way to put the drag link on the rear instead of the front but I think your axle needs to be forward at least 2-3 inches.

I'm only looking for 15-25mm of forward movement to allow a bit more tyre to firewall clearance, but it looks like the stock geometry only allows about 15mm forward movement before they will interfere.
I haven't got any merc arms, so don't know how long they are and how much clearance they will give.

Ben

The tie rod holes in the MBZ arms when mounted up are about 12mm farther forward than the stock location on the samurai knuckle.

Or like you put it they are 12mm longer and will not give any more clearance for you but less in that situation.

AcmeAdapters wrote:
It does not matter what kind of aftermarket hi steer system you use, none of them retain the stock ackerman principles.

What about this option?
http://store.snakeracing.com.au/cache/i ... l?cache=no