Outer Limits 4x4 Board

OK you buggy building freaks… what are you all building?? Buggies for Legends Class, or buggies for Super Modified class??

Major differences I see (from the WE Rock rules)… there are others, but these look to me to be the biggies:

Body: Legends needs to look ‘OEM’, Super Mod anything goes
Fenders: Legend needs front fenders, Super Mod anything goes
Tub/cab: Legends must look OEM, Super Mod anything goes
Frame chassis: Legends has to have a box frame, ladder type… Super Mod can be full tube (anything goes)
Axel position: Legends front tires can’t stick out beyond the front frame rails and centre line of rear can’t be past frame rails, Super Mod anything goes
Seating: Legends must be 2 seater, Super Mod can be single seater
Steering: Legends can by hydro assist, Super Mod can be full hydro and rear steer
Suspension: hydraulic OK in both classes, as long as it controls the entire axel and not just individual corners
Tires: Legends max of 37â€

At the moment there are already 6 or 7 full tube buggys that are Super Mod specs.

I personally see Super Mod been more active as its easier to build as there are a lot less restrictions on the design. What i mean is that Super mod allows for pretty well anything, however to build a legends rig you have a lot of things to factor in such as panels, frame specs etc etc that just makes it that much harder to build!

However Legends class will be equally as good as you can compete in a modified rig that has been slowly adapted over time to legends specs!

I am and always will compete in the Super Mods, i always believe that if i am going to compete then i might aswell compete in the top (hardest) class. I prefer to come third in the top grade than 1st in the lower grade. (just my opinion and my beliefs)

I think by Bathurst there will be even a few more supermods floating around.

Its totally up to yourself, you will find that no matter what class you aim for you will have plenty of competition.

i believe that legends would be the way to go, for it will mainly come down to driver ability when all the rigs are basically the same, supermod will have a fair degree of driver ability also but will have a fair amount of "who can afford the best will have the best"

I'm building a buggy for the super mod class. Not for the competition but just to get out and drive some harder stuff.

Ours will be Super Mod.

Less Restrictions means more possabilities = Fun Times Ahead

Wicked - that's what I want to hear... I wanna build a super-mod but wanted to make sure that I wouldn't be driving against myself!

I love my full hydro steering and the thought of not using it on my buggy leaves me rocking in the corner sucking my thumb...

S.

my buggy falls under supermod but it could be made to comply with legends if needed. this is a disadvantage really. supermods is the big ocean and i'm just barely beyond legends spec.

We were originally building the CJ Hybrid for Legends, but then after we starting looking at where we wanted the diffs and what we wanted from the wheelbase, the fact we dont want to run front guards etc we are now placing ourselves into the SuperMod class.

That said, very happy with that because we will prob be one of the only semi-full bodies vehicles in this class.

...come on guys, don't be shy, bashful, timid or apprehensive... what are you building??

super mod for mine.... was originally going legends but decided i didnt want to run 37s and cant be bothered making guards and bonnet fit....

basically "anything goes" was a more attractive bracket to do.....

david

Firstly - I have been promised that the legends class is going to be opened up to full tube buggies next year but will still have a steering box and the 37in tyre limit. They will still have the bonnet, guards, grill requirement so that the rig can be reconised as something.

Now I believe that to think of the legends class as being a second grade class or any lessor than the super mods is a mistake. The legends class is just a different vehicle spec. Nobody ever thinks the V8 supercars as being a lesor grade to formula 1 and the way Legends and Supermod will work will be the same

If you look at how the classes evolved and are still evolving in the US then you should get some idea on where these classes are headed. In the US the popurality rockcrawling really grew on the back of "legends" type rigs. These were rigs that were somewhat reconisable to the average punter. Up until last year most of the unlimited rigs were still reconisable as a normal 4wd vehicle (with a few exceptions like Tiny). Last year about half were reconisable and this year most are unreconisable as a normal 4wd vehicle (basically mostly single seat moon buggies)

Most of the industry people believe the way the unlimited are heading isnt good for the growth of the sport because the supermods only attract the really hard core spectators.

So this is where the Legends rigs fit into the picture - this class is setup to allow rigs to have really high performance (comparable to the supermods) while still resembling factory 4wds (by making them 2 seat, steering box, panels and 37in tyres). This class is designed to attract the spectators and therefore the sponsors. This class is going to be the class where the money is going to be because its the class that attracts the general public.

The only thing the supermods have got going for them in terms of spectator appeal is that they should be able to drive harder obstacles but the difference in the stuff they can drive is very very small. In almost every competition the legends drive the same courses as the supermods.

So if you guys are trying to work out which class to build for then here are some build hints based on whats happening in the US at the moment.

If you want to build a Supermod rig:

Build a single seat moonbuggy (engine in the rear) with or without rear steer. For the time being the moonbuggies without rear steer are working better than the moonbuggies with rear steer so may as well not have it.

Or build a single or 2 seat front engined rig that has rear steer.

These are the sorts of rigs that are competitive in supermod in the US at the moment and they are all running 39 - 40in tyres (either Krawlers, MTRs, or Procomps)

If you want to build a front engined rig without rear steer then you probably should build it with the idea that it is going to be a legends class rig - even if you compete in supermod for the time being (ie next year) because a front engined non rear steer rig isnt going to be competitive in supermod once people start building moonbuggies. The moonbuggies just have so much advantage over the conventional front engined rigs in so many areas (like manouverability, axle strength, low centre of gravity etc) that it just doesent make sence to build a supermod rig any other way if you want to be competitive.

So if you want to have 2 seats and a front engine then legends is the class to be in cause once the moonbuggy craze hits here (which is happening right now) the supermod class will not resemble anything like a normal 4wd.

So in my opinion either build a legends rig or build a moon buggy or build a rear steer rig if you want to be half competitive.

Sam

Just as an example of whats currently in the US here some pics of rigs from the first pro UROC round this year. In these three pages all the supermod rigs either are moonbuggies with or without rear steer or front enginer rigs with rear steer.

Any front engined rig that doesent have rear steer are in the legends class (and of course they have 2 seats).

The only exception is the rhino buggy and we dont have them out here and the new curtis rig and its just way fawked up and doesent reall count.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/trailreports/u ... 5/day1.php
http://www.pirate4x4.com/trailreports/u ... /index.php
http://www.pirate4x4.com/trailreports/u ... 5/tech.php

Sam

i recall reading a thread started by the team redbull guy (dustin?) about spectator recognition of the rigs and the sport. i'll try to find it

edit-> http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=327152

sam,

when you say rear steer do you mean 4 wheel steer or forklift style?

can you extend what you are saying above further eg the reasons as to the benefits of 4 wheel steer front engined vs live axle rear engined. i am assuming that the front without an engine is far more capable suspension wise.

why would 4 wheel steer not always be a benefit when you need it? why does the engine balance affect the turning need of the buggy?

secondly to run a rear motor do you just use a conventional set up in reverse your - eg front output becomming the rear drive and flip the diffs?

thanks mate

bru

Interesting info Sam... any other hints as to changes for Legends class next year?? Still need a steering box?? Same rules for tyres within front frame etc??

S.

and it also says the legends need to run a ladder type box frame.....wouldnt this rule out alot of the super mod class?

Super mod for me too

Mock

We are building a super mod moon buggy but I'm still keen to get into a legends class vehicle as well. For the moment, it will be super mod

Just build what you want to drive, if what you want fits into the Super Mod class then build it and vice versa!

Its all Rockcrawling!!

The new Outers moto "Just Build it"

POS wrote:Just build what you want to drive, if what you want fits into the Super Mod class then build it and vice versa!

Its all Rockcrawling!!

The new Outers moto "Just Build it"

I have to disagree with this moto. If everyone just bilt it then the tech sections would be pretty empty.

looks like most are building for Super Mod to me... I guess things will shake out in the next 1-2 years anyway.

S.

I am with the just build it, I do want to win, but I also have a concept in my mind of what I want to drive, for me I may evolve into a moon buggy, but for now, going from the XJ, wanna stay Jeep, but bugger and stronger, if I have to compete against moon buggies, all well and good, as long as the courses then dont get made so tight that a moon buggy can do them and a bigger truck will struggle as it needs to be kept in a middle ground.

bru21 wrote:sam,

when you say rear steer do you mean 4 wheel steer or forklift style?

can you extend what you are saying above further eg the reasons as to the benefits of 4 wheel steer front engined vs live axle rear engined. i am assuming that the front without an engine is far more capable suspension wise.

why would 4 wheel steer not always be a benefit when you need it? why does the engine balance affect the turning need of the buggy?

secondly to run a rear motor do you just use a conventional set up in reverse your - eg front output becomming the rear drive and flip the diffs?

thanks mate

bru

Rear steer - I mean 4 wheel steer.

It seems that the rear engined rear steer dont work as well as the front engined rear steer or the rear engined non rear steer. It may be because when you have a rear engine and rear steer that you just end p with too much rear weight.

Look at the latest UROC results for the supermodified (starts 15 places down)
http://www.uroceast.com/Scoring/UROCPho ... yNight.htm

1st rear engined, non rear steer
2nd rear engined, non rear steer
3rd front engined, rear steer
4th rear engined, non rear steer
5th front engined, non rear steer
6th rear engined, non rear steer
7th rear engined, non rear steer
8th rear engined, rear steer
9th front engined, rear steer
10th rear engined, rear steer

It seems to me that the rear engined rigs are just so manouverable that they can complete the courses without the use of rear steer and the rear engined rigs with rear steer are just carrying around extra weight for no benefit.

The front engined rig non rear steer that placed 5th is very supprising. In UROC pros i carnt remember seeing a front engined non rear steer rig doing that well in the last year.

The front engined rear steer rigs have always been very competitive against the rear engined rigs.

Sam

how do the rules accept a vehicle that is set up for full time 4 wheel steer? do you get penalized for the use of the rear steer every time you hit an obsticle?

sierrajim wrote:how do the rules accept a vehicle that is set up for full time 4 wheel steer? do you get penalized for the use of the rear steer every time you hit an obsticle?

You get 5 point penaliy if you use it on an obstacle and once you use it on an obstacle you can use it as many times as you like during that obstacle.

Hitting a cone is 10 penalities, reversing gets you 1 penality etc

An obstacle is a short course normally comprising of around 3 to 8 sets of cones.

The competition is usually held over 8 to 10 obstacles.

Sam

Super mod.