Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I've been reading the rules over and over for the CCDA, looking at pictures of vehicles that are currently competing and have a couple of questions for those that are in the know.

1. The rules say that back braces must be straight. Many vehicles that are competing do not have straight back braces, does this mean this is allowable or are these people just getting away with it?

2. Cages must be made from DOM tube. I have seen some trucks with square tube back braces. Can you get square DOM?

3. Can external cages be used on their own or would you require a 6 point internal cage as well?

I hope someone can clear this up for me before i start building my rig as i want to get this as close to right as possible the first time.

Regards,

James

sierrajim wrote:I've been reading the rules over and over for the CCDA, looking at pictures of vehicles that are currently competing and have a couple of questions for those that are in the know.

1. The rules say that back braces must be straight. Many vehicles that are competing do not have straight back braces, does this mean this is allowable or are these people just getting away with it?

2. Cages must be made from DOM tube. I have seen some trucks with square tube back braces. Can you get square DOM?

3. Can external cages be used on their own or would you require a 6 point internal cage as well?

I hope someone can clear this up for me before i start building my rig as i want to get this as close to right as possible the first time.

Regards,

James

must be CAMS type I understand and EXOs are not covered by CAMS so basically has to be 6 point internal. I beleive it is only tube allowed, but I am chasing this ATM and will let you know

sierrajim wrote:I've been reading the rules over and over for the CCDA, looking at pictures of vehicles that are currently competing and have a couple of questions for those that are in the know.

sierrajim wrote:1. The rules say that back braces must be straight. Many vehicles that are competing do not have straight back braces, does this mean this is allowable or are these people just getting away with it?

the back stays must be straight. no question about it. at this stage there is a bit of give as it is asking a bit much to get every one up to spec in such a short amount of time, but now the OBC is over i believe the reg's are going to be enforced

sierrajim wrote:2. Cages must be made from DOM tube. I have seen some trucks with square tube back braces. Can you get square DOM?

the cages must be made out of CDS or CDW (DOM), and no SHS or RHS is not accepted

sierrajim wrote:3. Can external cages be used on their own or would you require a 6 point internal cage as well?

External cages are excepted but should be made out of 50.8x3 as apposed to 50.8x2 for internal cages, this is to take into account for "rock rash"

sierrajim wrote:I hope someone can clear this up for me before i start building my rig as i want to get this as close to right as possible the first time.

Hope this helps

Regards,

James

James if you want any help just give me a call

Thanks for that offer mate. After i've had my meeting with the negineer and he's told me what i can and can't do i'll give you a call.

James

Fathillbilly wrote:

sierrajim wrote:I've been reading the rules over and over for the CCDA, looking at pictures of vehicles that are currently competing and have a couple of questions for those that are in the know.

sierrajim wrote:1. The rules say that back braces must be straight. Many vehicles that are competing do not have straight back braces, does this mean this is allowable or are these people just getting away with it?

the back stays must be straight. no question about it. at this stage there is a bit of give as it is asking a bit much to get every one up to spec in such a short amount of time, but now the OBC is over i believe the reg's are going to be enforced

sierrajim wrote:2. Cages must be made from DOM tube. I have seen some trucks with square tube back braces. Can you get square DOM?

the cages must be made out of CDS or CDW (DOM), and no SHS or RHS is not accepted

sierrajim wrote:3. Can external cages be used on their own or would you require a 6 point internal cage as well?

External cages are excepted but should be made out of 50.8x3 as apposed to 50.8x2 for internal cages, this is to take into account for "rock rash"

sierrajim wrote:I hope someone can clear this up for me before i start building my rig as i want to get this as close to right as possible the first time.

Hope this helps

Regards,

James

James if you want any help just give me a call

I was under the understanding that external were not approved, has this changed, or was it the way I read the ruled

On a side note when is/does a cage reach its use by date. Who judges at what stage a cage needs to be replaced. ie how many rolls or how hard a roll deems it is done, time for a new one. Same to exos with rock rash, when does a scratch become a gouge that is structurally unsafe

grimbo wrote:On a side note when is/does a cage reach its use by date. Who judges at what stage a cage needs to be replaced. ie how many rolls or how hard a roll deems it is done, time for a new one. Same to exos with rock rash, when does a scratch become a gouge that is structurally unsafe

one impact and they should be scrapped technically, but that is based on high speen and for what we are doing what is safe

Tiny wrote:

grimbo wrote:On a side note when is/does a cage reach its use by date. Who judges at what stage a cage needs to be replaced. ie how many rolls or how hard a roll deems it is done, time for a new one. Same to exos with rock rash, when does a scratch become a gouge that is structurally unsafe

one impact and they should be scrapped technically, but that is based on high speen and for what we are doing what is safe

but what is deemed an impact worthy of replacement

grimbo wrote:

Tiny wrote:

grimbo wrote:On a side note when is/does a cage reach its use by date. Who judges at what stage a cage needs to be replaced. ie how many rolls or how hard a roll deems it is done, time for a new one. Same to exos with rock rash, when does a scratch become a gouge that is structurally unsafe

one impact and they should be scrapped technically, but that is based on high speen and for what we are doing what is safe

but what is deemed an impact worthy of replacement

who knows, but for us a slow flop would be AOK in my mind, but anything that bends tha cage would be cause for replacment IMO

are you 100% sure just an exo is ok. can anyone else back this up.

bru21 wrote:are you 100% sure just an exo is ok. can anyone else back this up.

I am with you, I think that you need an internal

I had heard (could be a load of crap) that organizers prefered that you did not have an exo.

Reason being that with an exo it's foot to the floor all the way and bounce off the trees with no damage to the car.

Without an exo people will slow down a bit based on them not wanting to destroy their body panels too quickly.

My reading of the rules, about a 1000 times to double check is that no exo for wagon, only on cab chassis where 2 seperate cages are permitted. the rules dont actually mention exo only where the bars must be. It does state that they substantially reduce body shell deformation. An exo would do this as well as an internal as a large rock or a stump could hit the body shell and not the cage on an exo as with an internal body would come onto the cage.

The other thing is how do you cross brace an exo?

Cheers

Pondy

I reasearched and you must have an internal cage. Also things are only going to get stricter over time so do it right the first time.

LudaCris

So would i be correct in assuming that i can run a 4 point (built into the tray and braced to chassis) and a 4 point internal cage in my extended cab Hilux?

Even better is there a CCDA "customer assistance" line?

bj42oz wrote:My reading of the rules, about a 1000 times to double check is that no exo for wagon, only on cab chassis where 2 seperate cages are permitted. the rules dont actually mention exo only where the bars must be. It does state that they substantially reduce body shell deformation. An exo would do this as well as an internal as a large rock or a stump could hit the body shell and not the cage on an exo as with an internal body would come onto the cage.

The other thing is how do you cross brace an exo?

Cheers

Pondy

like mine, still not as strong as a proper internal though

sierrajim wrote:So would i be correct in assuming that i can run a 4 point (built into the tray and braced to chassis) and a 4 point internal cage in my extended cab Hilux?

Even better is there a CCDA "customer assistance" line?

Yes you can.

You can also have rear 4 pt at the tray mounted to the chassis as you have said then run bars into the cab and down the A pillar to make a 6pt.
This is what a friend has done to a Landy which will run in most Vic events this year. He investigated it quite extensively and that is what he's built to comply.
The only problem i see with this, is that you now may need a centre brace to run between the driver and navigator to be up to spec with the new rules.

Dave.

must be CAMS type I understand and EXOs are not covered by CAMS so basically has to be 6 point internal. I beleive it is only tube allowed, but I am chasing this ATM and will let you know

CAMS will pass an exo on a ute. My class 8 racer has an exo which complies with all CAMS rules and is fully log booked and has been raced. Under CAMS if you comply it doesnt matter exo or internal.

Under the CCDA it would appear that the rules are stricter but here in the west we dont have any such events so it hasnt been a worry to date

As for design heres some action shots you get the idea

I wonder if Im CAMS approved whether the CCDA would pass me anyway

Preparing to get shot down in flames here.

I submitted the current "Draft" CCDA Roll Over Protection Specs so that they could be checked. Many members on this board and others had input into them. Currently they are under review so that they will also be CAMS approved. I understand the frustation everyone is having, I still havent built my cage until this is sorted. The draft was released so that people could see what we were aiming for.

All A grade events this year have required A pillar protection and there has been a moretorium until next year on having cages comply.

As has been mentioned there is some rubbish out there but we are trying to increase safety through the new regs.

Most of the knockers don't realise the work that has gone into this and that our sport is differenty to other cams classes and that most of our vehicles are a lot heavier.

No need or want to shoot you down in flames LOCKEE, I like others are ready to build a cage and want to know what we can build as we want it to comply.

LOCKEE wrote:Preparing to get shot down in flames here.

I submitted the current "Draft" CCDA Roll Over Protection Specs so that they could be checked. Many members on this board and others had input into them. Currently they are under review so that they will also be CAMS approved. I understand the frustation everyone is having, I still havent built my cage until this is sorted. The draft was released so that people could see what we were aiming for.

All A grade events this year have required A pillar protection and there has been a moretorium until next year on having cages comply.

As has been mentioned there is some rubbish out there but we are trying to increase safety through the new regs.

Most of the knockers don't realise the work that has gone into this and that our sport is differenty to other cams classes and that most of our vehicles are a lot heavier.

can you shoot me a copy of the draft?

I for one beleive it is important that we have regs on this kind safety stuff, I have seen first hand the benifit of a good cage, and wonder why you would want to put yourself at risk over a few $$....my brain might not be the brightest, but I am happy with it in my skull

CCDA Website has all the details.

LOCKEE wrote:CCDA Website has all the details.

thanks, your a champ

EDIT: URL http://ccda.4wd.org.au/cms/

It looks like the CCDA regs allow for EXO only, as long as they don't impede on entry / exit from vehicle by driver or navi, stil undertand that the CAMS specs don't allow, but I see here that someone is getting it approved so maybe a loophole??? that is good as I have being building a semi exo on a 40 with a mate. lockee can you confirmn this, and anyone able to tell me if willowglen will be enforcing cages this year or still ok with out?

still have not decided where the GQ will be choped, but regs allow a 4point in the cab and a 4 point rear woth braced through the cab but can be removable (PITA leave em in )

Will look in to the rules a bit more over the weekend

2005 revisions:

o The introduction of an “Aâ€

I did read something stating that the A pillar support can only have one bend, this would make an exo only rig non-compliant for many vehicles due to design limitations.

Is there any transition period used when rules are changed to give people some time to work on their trucks?

Ann:

That TJ with the cams spec cage, did a cams scrutineer log book the cage with the front legs bolting to the A pillar? How big are the plates, eg. are they big enough to meet whatever number of square mm they require? I look at the (CAMS spec) cages in out race cars and I'd be outright amazed (particularly given the new attention to a pillar strength) if they allowed the front legs to bolt to the a pillar like that.

Do the rear legs meet the main hoop within 150mm of the double cross in the main hoop?

hotgemini wrote:Ann:

That TJ with the cams spec cage, did a cams scrutineer log book the cage with the front legs bolting to the A pillar?

they go through the dash to the floor

hotgemini wrote:Ann:

That TJ with the cams spec cage, did a cams scrutineer log book the cage with the front legs bolting to the A pillar? How big are the plates, eg. are they big enough to meet whatever number of square mm they require? I look at the (CAMS spec) cages in out race cars and I'd be outright amazed (particularly given the new attention to a pillar strength) if they allowed the front legs to bolt to the a pillar like that.

Do the rear legs meet the main hoop within 150mm of the double cross in the main hoop?

CAMS scruitineer hasn't gone over the car, as there's no need to have a log book for it at this stage. If the sport goes that way, then I'll pursue it.

Where you see it bolt to the windscreen, it's not a structural part of the cage. A couple of tabs are welded to the tube to allow the windscreen frame to be bolted to the cage to hold it up. It's not relevant in terms of the cage at all. As Thor said, the front legs go right down to the floor.

There are 150x150mm (minimum) reinforcing plates welded to the body where all points of the cage are secured. The welded in foot plate is then bolted to the reinforcing plate using 3 and 4 (depending on the mount) grade 8 bolts.

The backstays are 150mm from where the double cross memebers meet the main hoop at the top (both the roof double cross members and the members in the main hoop).

The design of the cage comes straight out of the CAMS manual, schedule J, with the only difference being double cross members rather than single, as there is an amendment to the manual which says any cages built after Jan 1, 2005 must have doubles.

Hope this helps.

sierrajim wrote:1. The rules say that back braces must be straight. Many vehicles that are competing do not have straight back braces, does this mean this is allowable or are these people just getting away with it?

2. Cages must be made from DOM tube. I have seen some trucks with square tube back braces. Can you get square DOM?

3. Can external cages be used on their own or would you require a 6 point internal cage as well?

Here's my understanding after reading CCDA and CAMS manuals on the subject.

1. Backstays must be straight, no bends allowed, no exceptions (unless you want to homogulate your own cage <read: good luck>)

2. DOM == Drawn Over Mandrel (also known as CDS, Cold Drawn Steel). There's no square DOM

3. My understanding is that it has to be internal, unless you're cab-chassis, which has its own section of rules on cages.