Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hi All,

After fitting my recently locked rear I had a bit of a play with some ramps on my front steps, I ramped the drivers side front then reversed up the passengers side rear.

Looking at the spring packs I'd say I am getting maximum travel out of the fronts but the rears dont seem to tuck as well (they do droop Ok though)

I am tempted to removed the bottom spring, I think its called the load carrier or something like that, the fat short one that only has about 4 inches contact with the next spring up in the pack.

What I want to know is will this improve the flex in the spring and how will ride height be affected.

P.S. This is SPOA configuration with extended shackles so I dont want to go any higher than where I am now hence playing with the standard springs

Steve

Steve remove any of the clips holding the springs together, if you remove the overload spring you will find that the springs will sag and fatigue quite quickly but they will flex more. Do you have the inserts on the end of the springs, teflon I think, this helps reduce friction between the springs when they flex and rub against each other.

when you ute it, the back end will be way more lighter, so you probly will need to do something. make sure the metal that wraps round the spring (forgot name) is loose, also. Some remove them, but I wouldn't, and grahams right, need some sort of anti-friction between leaves. try polishing the leaves, or just lift zook till they full droop, and put graphite powder between the leaves, christover

Steve remove any of the clips holding the springs together..................................would be good if I read things properley

i've got some booty fab anti-friction devices in my leaf pack - cable ties!

they're wrapped around near ends of each leaf. fairly big and heavy duty ones mind you. they stay in place and if they wear out they're easy to replace. that might work for you too.

bigsteve wrote:Hi All,

After fitting my recently locked rear I had a bit of a play with some ramps on my front steps, I ramped the drivers side front then reversed up the passengers side rear.

Looking at the spring packs I'd say I am getting maximum travel out of the fronts but the rears dont seem to tuck as well (they do droop Ok though)

I am tempted to removed the bottom spring, I think its called the load carrier or something like that, the fat short one that only has about 4 inches contact with the next spring up in the pack.

What I want to know is will this improve the flex in the spring and how will ride height be affected.

P.S. This is SPOA configuration with extended shackles so I dont want to go any higher than where I am now hence playing with the standard springs

Steve

Big Steve,

Have a look at my spring packs next time you see them - i've removed the clips and the load springs to get maximum flex out of the springs - however, they are only a few months old and have already started to flatten out quite a bit...

However, i suspect you may find that one of the down sides of the SPOA setup is that you have to run a hard/stiff spring to avoid destroying other components under there - like drive train, uni's etc... I believe this is what you will find if you have a look at Peter's SPOA - it has very minimal flex to avoid breaking other things. That may just be the way it's done

cheers,
Greg

I cant see the point then of doing a spring over if you dont want flex..we do them so we can get MAXIMUM flex

i did my first spring over with 2 inch lift springs that were pretty darn stiff....and it was a complete disaster as all it wanted to do was tip over, rather then go thru the travel arc......stock springs work the best, but i have buggered the front springs as they have turned into an "S". but that also is due to running a 3 leaf spring pack

I agree, long flat springs work the best with spring over. Definately not hard stiff ones.

Hard stiff springs don't work period. I should know, I use to have GRP 3" springs, and Tim knows how much the flex

This is my idea of flex out of a SPOA.
Here is a pic of my mate Geoff's beast in the states.

here's another pic for ya'll

I thought Geoff was using yj wrangler leaves, could be mistaken

yeah his is. i didn't say they were stock

and is my idea of what a spoa should flex like

also, proof stiff springs don't work. He very rarely breaks ANYTHING, yet has bullshit amounts of flex.

was speaking with him yesterday and we got into the whole "breaking stuff" discussion. he's broken less with that setup than I have with a stock/mild setup.

hey steve i was having the same trouble as u
the front workin nice on compression an droop
but the rear wouldnt stuff very well but it would droop good
so i took out the overload an added another main leaf with the ends cut off it

this allows me to get more compression but keeps the same amount of droop

but i wouldnt recomend opening up the clamps u will get to much axel wrap and it will kill your springs

ill will get a photo of my spring pack later tonight
as well as a pic of it flexin on a ramp :wink:

hope it helps ya
Tim



*EDIT* the way i done it it kept it at the same height (didnt lift it any more)

my rear spring pack

and ramping on a sleeper

I look those pics and don't see why you need to go spoa to get flex here is a pic of Greg's car (same setup as mine) spua with rear 2.5" old man emu springs up front and as you can see it flexes beuatifully without all the negatives that a spoa has

the first pic shows the comparison of my car and another guys Brett. He has a spoa and extended wheelbase using old man emu springs I have spua using old man emu rear springs. We both have 3/4 eliptic rears but he has about 7" longer wheel base. As you can sort of see mine flexes better than his

grimbo wrote:I look those pics and don't see why you need to go spoa to get flex here is a pic of Greg's car (same setup as mine) spua with rear 2.5" old man emu springs up front and as you can see it flexes beuatifully without all the negatives that a spoa has

the first pic shows the comparison of my car and another guys Brett. He has a spoa and extended wheelbase using old man emu springs I have spua using old man emu rear springs. We both have 3/4 eliptic rears but he has about 7" longer wheel base. As you can sort of see mine flexes better than his

what are the negatives of spoa?
i havent got any

imo it would be easier to go spoa
then putin a frame xtension on to run the rears upfront
an 3/4 eliptic in rear

spoa also gives u more clearance


Tim

hahaha... I feel a bit of a Ramp Off* may be required to see which setup does actually flex the car out more.

Red Zook - the negatives I believe Grimbo would be refering to are to do with all the customizing required to get the springs sorted out and the drive line working with all the right angles - these are less of a problem with the Spring Under set up.

The other negatives are to do with extra vehicle height and weight transfer.

* - even though we all know they don't really prove all the much.

pull out the load leaf and add a trac bar to stop the diff wrapping. If it drops a bit just add a small block to level it back out or cut the first or second leaf down a bit a shorter in the front to make the front drop a bit lower. Cut about an inch or so off the leaf at a time.

When we pull the load leaf out of the rear we actually leave it in there as a just cut the load leaf either side of the spring perch as it acts like a little block then.

I would put the rear springs in the front and put some of my springs in the rear. With that set up it flexes awesome!

Tim,

You don't need to do a frame extension to put rears up front.

that diagram I sent you the other night creates a bolt on bracket for the rear hanger of the front spring. all you need after that bracket is a 1" longer than stock shackle.

putting your front diff roughly .75" forward from stock.

Thnks for all the comments,

For the record I prefer spring under as oposed to spring over, at the time when I wanted a lift the SPOA was cheap and I got to keep my springs so if I bugger them I have no loss.

I have to say that Gregs & Grahams setups seem to work a hellova lot better than any SPOA's I have seen.

My rig is only in its very early stages so I may even go back to Spring under but for the moment I am just wanting to see how it all works before trying a different approach.

Your comments are appreciated, I didn't think a SPUA vs SPOA debate would ensure but hey its all good.

I will be removing all the clips and probably playing with the pads this weekend, will get some pics too.

Cheers

Big Steve

mickbj42 wrote:I would put the rear springs in the front and put some of my springs in the rear. With that set up it flexes awesome!

what r your rear springs?

skippy wrote:Tim,

You don't need to do a frame extension to put rears up front.

yes i know but grimbo has put a frame extension on to run the rears upfront :wink:

I have the frame extension and it was a lot easier than the spoa with its issues of getting the perches exactly right and having to modify the steering. Also the spua has a longer spring life than a spoa. The 3/4 eliptic comment was more to do with the comparison pic than an easy setup as it is not that easy to do on a swb. Greg's car is non 3/4 and flexes great

grimbo wrote:I have the frame extension and it was a lot easier than the spoa with its issues of getting the perches exactly right and having to modify the steering.

There is an easy way to do this but....sit the perches on, bolt the springs and ubolts on, take the load of and let it settle...tack weld it, unbolt it all and then finish the welding..

This is a very sensitive topic, but I want to throw in my 2 bob.
First a correction, Greg said:
"look at Peter's SPOA - it has very minimal flex to avoid breaking other things"
The reason it has minimal flex is, it is stock other than SPOA, it is engineered with a 1.6L, 33" tyres and the spring over, and as I am planing to put a 2.0 l engine in, and get it aproved by the engineer I am not playing with the suspension yet.
I have a foot in both camps here as I am a great beleaver in keeping the COG as low as posible, but the main reason I went SPOA was not flex, it was not about the easyest way to get it up, or what looked the best, it was to keep the bottom of the axle tube as clean as posible, and you can never have a SPUA as clean as a SPOA, you can neaten it up a bit, but not totaly, and if you are pushing through mud or scraping over someting solid (rocks, logs) I would prefer to have as much clearance as possible down there, it is one of the best fetures of a Suzuki, that small diff center give us heaps of clearance.
mine has just a U bolt thickness below the axle tube, and before it had the spring pack, fish plates, U bolts, and nuts hanging down there, just waiting to snag me on a rock or slow me down trying to push it all through the mud.
Now don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of SPUA, (and if I could solve the above problem I would be there in a flash) you just have to look at Gregs SPUA Suzuki with 34" swampers perform, to make you think about it.
Peter.

hello

droopypete wrote:This is a very sensitive topic, but I want to throw in my 2 bob.
First a correction, Greg said:
"look at Peter's SPOA - it has very minimal flex to avoid breaking other things"
The reason it has minimal flex is, it is stock other than SPOA, it is engineered with a 1.6L, 33" tyres and the spring over, and as I am planing to put a 2.0 l engine in, and get it aproved by the engineer I am not playing with the suspension yet.
I have a foot in both camps here as I am a great beleaver in keeping the COG as low as posible, but the main reason I went SPOA was not flex, it was not about the easyest way to get it up, or what looked the best, it was to keep the bottom of the axle tube as clean as posible, and you can never have a SPUA as clean as a SPOA, you can neaten it up a bit, but not totaly, and if you are pushing through mud or scraping over someting solid (rocks, logs) I would prefer to have as much clearance as possible down there, it is one of the best fetures of a Suzuki, that small diff center give us heaps of clearance.
mine has just a U bolt thickness below the axle tube, and before it had the spring pack, fish plates, U bolts, and nuts hanging down there, just waiting to snag me on a rock or slow me down trying to push it all through the mud.
Now don't get me wrong, I am a huge fan of SPUA, (and if I could solve the above problem I would be there in a flash) you just have to look at Gregs SPUA Suzuki with 34" swampers perform, to make you think about it.
Peter.

Well said Pete (Worth saying twice)

OK .. I am a SPOA fan ..

I dont care waht anyone says SPOA or SPUA the suzuki springs OME or otherwise are not designed for the mammoth flex that Greg, Graham etc are getting out of them SPUA nor are they designed for massive flex that others are getting out of them SPOA, Greg has already noticed alot of settling with his sporngs after just a few months of mostly weekend only stuff (pretty hardcore but still very limited kilometer wise) I alos noticed that Mocks "Critta" fronts are very flat with the drviers side front begining to take on a negative arch .. And from memory they have only been serving duty on critta since Wandin .. The most extreme flexing Zuk in the Vic Zuk club eating springs

Having owned and gone 4 wheeling as pilot of a Zuk thats been suspended many differnt ways on diffrent brand springs ... I had shitte loads of fun with all the setups ... guess thats what really matters ...

Do I detect a case for coil spring Suspension here???