Outer Limits 4x4 Board

if turbos create boost
what does a superchager create? (boost too?)
thanks
Scott

both create boost

im confused scotty.. are you talking about superchangers,superchages or superchargers....either way all three would create boost.. ...

Both create boost. A supercharger takes a litttle power from the motor too creae even more power. The power thake is due too it being belt driven, supercharger is working from the moment you start the engine. Turbo doesnt have the constant boost like a charger, you have to reach a certian rev then boost will start. At the the end of the day they create the same thing and its personal choose to what you want.

scotty if you want a bit of light reading have a look at the yahoo strokers news group.. despite all their stroker info and AMC related stuff there is good info including a current discussion on turbo v. superchargers.

Difference between superchargers and turbochargers on a car engine-

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question122.htm

MARKx4 wrote:Both create boost. The power thake is due too it being belt driven, supercharger is working from the moment you start the engine. Turbo doesnt have the constant boost like a charger, you have to reach a certian rev then boost will start.

on the money .......so with a supercharger u get boost at low revs

how good would a supercharger work on a deisel engine? i have heard of it being done, but have no idea of any benefits, aside from no lag,

RoeDao wrote:how good would a supercharger work on a deisel engine? i have heard of it being done, but have no idea of any benefits, aside from no lag,

i drove a supercharged TD42 patrol, almost did wheel stands...........

superchargers are running boost all the time, and just add horsepower from the mark, for using on diesel, its better run the them a on larger six cylinder engine and bigger, as the grunt is there to push them from the start. but as i say this im intreaged (SP?) as some of the aussie imports from asia have superchargers fitted, i believe Vortex? are one brand? please corrrect me if im wrong. im interested in them because they run from fan belt not gears or shite. can you runa super charger and turbo at once? one feeding the other? to much writing

eliteforce32 wrote:superchargers are running boost all the time, and just add horsepower from the mark, for using on diesel, its better run the them a on larger six cylinder engine and bigger, as the grunt is there to push them from the start. but as i say this im intreaged (SP?) as some of the aussie imports from asia have superchargers fitted, i believe Vortex? are one brand? please corrrect me if im wrong. im interested in them because they run from fan belt not gears or shite. can you runa super charger and turbo at once? one feeding the other? to much writing

apparently so, it think they do it on larger truck engines, there was a thread here some time ago on it now that i think about it. ill try and link that.

I'm planning to supercharge my L28, only because I reckon I can do it veerry very cheap.

We'll see though, I got a stack of other things I need to do before supercharging.

you can buy rebuilt stage 1 Vortex superchargers for about 1500 bux..... but i think thats just the supercharger... no pulleys and belts. It would be interesting to see how one would go on a 4cyl diesel....... say a 2.8

i am supercharging my TD42 and have purchased a eaton m90 supercharger from the states 2nd hand for $350 to my door hows that for cheap. there is a tread on pirate about turbos and superchargers and you can run them together most comonly done on big 2 stroke deisels

here's the link http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthre ... percharger

92mav wrote:i am supercharging my TD42 and have purchased a eaton m90 supercharger from the states 2nd hand for $350 to my door hows that for cheap. there is a tread on pirate about turbos and superchargers and you can run them together most comonly done on big 2 stroke deisels

here's the link http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthre ... percharger

gotta be pleased with that!!! i'm considering LPG fumigation for mine, might be cheaper in the long run.

[quote="mickyd555"][quote="eliteforce32"]superchargers are running boost all the time, and just add horsepower from the mark, for using on diesel, its better run the them a on larger six cylinder engine and bigger, as the grunt is there to push them from the start. but as i say this im intreaged (SP?) as some of the aussie imports from asia have superchargers fitted, i believe Vortex? are one brand? please corrrect me if im wrong. im interested in them because they run from fan belt not gears or shite. [color=red]can you runa super charger and turbo at once? one feeding the other?[/color] to much writing [/quote]

apparently so, it think they do it on larger truck engines, there was a thread here some time ago on it now that i think about it. ill try and link that.[/quote]

Alot of old 2 stroke detroit diesels had turbo's feeding blowers. Although the job of blowers on those are to blow the ehaust gas out and feed fresh air to the engine and not to create boost like on cars they work really well togethger. But put a supercharger onto a V8 and feed it boost from a turbo well, strap yourself in and hold on!

i cant find the link anymore, but there has been a couple crazy japenese cars that had twin s/c and twin turbo one was a r32? and the other i got a feeling (dont hold me to it) was an old datsun 240z with a VH45 conversion to boot

MARKx4 wrote:Both create boost. A supercharger takes a litttle power from the motor too creae even more power. The power thake is due too it being belt driven, supercharger is working from the moment you start the engine. Turbo doesnt have the constant boost like a charger, you have to reach a certian rev then boost will start. At the the end of the day they create the same thing and its personal choose to what you want.

Don't forget the differences between a positive displacement blower and a centrifigual one. P. D. blower provides a given amount of air (boost) per blower revolution. Centrifgual provides a progressive turbo-like boost curve, increasing boost as engine speed rises.

Depends on the engine and the rev range you want to drive it within. Want boost off idle, go p.d. supercharger. Not that the others cant be configured to achieve that same result, but that's the way I'd do it I think.

Mal

thanks mate very good info

There is a toyota engine which came with a supercharger and turbo from factory. Came out of a celica i think, was only about 2litres.

The Supercharger has an electric clutch and is switched off after a certain amount of revs to allow the larger turbo to take over.

This system would work really well in theory in that a very efficient supercharger could be used for boost at low revs, and then a large "laggy" turbo can be used to take over the boost at higher revs.

so you can use a smaller supercharger that doesnt sapp as much power from the engine, and a cheaper turbo which doesnt need to spool as quick.

At low revs, the supercharger is on and creating boost. The turbo is not spooled up, but still allows the air to flow through it relatively unrestricted.

At high revs when the turbo is pushing alot of air, the supercharger needs to be able to flow all the air being pushed by the turbo (or pulled depending on configuration, turbo before supercharger or vice versa).

To the best of my knowledge there are two types of superchargers, one does not let alot of air flow when its idle unless its in the parked position, thus requiring extra mechanics to "auto park" it.

The other is a centrifugal and will still pass air even when idle.

You would need either the auto parking type, or a high flowing centrifugal type.

If you can find the supercharger toyota used, then this would be the best option as its an already engineered solution.

Finding another "off the shelf" supercharger that does the same job may be very difficult, and may require experimentation ($$$$).

HKS developed a kit for the 4AGZE which was fitted to corolla's and MR2s called the twin charger which incorporated a turbo into the equation. I have an airflow diagram here somewhere. It worked and provided decent results but meant a lot of pipework and complexity. Go one or the other in my opinion.

Be careful you don't confuse the types of superchargers. From the factory the toyota chargers ran a clutch setup to disenguage the charger but still allow air to flow through it. Positive displacement blowers are superchargers such as the factory toyota blowers, as well as traditional rootes style 6/71s etc and eaton blowers, for example, like the one fitted to the commodore 6. Every time the engine rotates the blower gears a given amount of air is passed through the vanes and into the engine. By changing the size of the blower pulley you speed up the its operation and extra air is drawn through it, effectively increasing the boost pressure. But it draws the same amount of air per engine revolution so at idle it makes the same amount of boost per engine rev as it does at 6000rpm.

Centrifugal blowers like vortechs, powerdynes, prochargers are basically belt driven turbos. Belt drive from the engine spins an impeller which pressurises air into the engine. Boost is directly proportional to the speed that the impeller is being turned at. Depending on blower spec, for example it might make a peak of 10psi at 6000rpm but at 4000rpm it might only be making 6psi and at 1500 might be making 3psi.

It depends on what result you are chasing. Due you want a peaky power curve or a extra grunt off idle to crawl over the rough stuff. Is it for a diesel or petrol engine? Inline or V configuration? 4, 6, 8, rotary? Setup and intended driving show which provides the best option for you.

Alot of old 2 stroke detroit diesels had turbo's feeding blowers. Although the job of blowers on those are to blow the ehaust gas out and feed fresh air to the engine and not to create boost like on cars they work really well togethger. But put a supercharger onto a V8 and feed it boost from a turbo well, strap yourself in and hold on!

Not this simple

All engines two stroke or four stroke try and get the above results. The end result is good clean conbustion.

A turbo or a super charger will increase the amont of clean air in a cylinder thus allowing move fuel to be put into the cylinder resulting in move power.

Super charger give you instant power, but have the down side is they use engine power to drive them.

Turbo chargers have a power delay, but they are driven for free by waste exhaust gas.

i have both
a TD42 supercharged WAGON
and a TD42 turbo intercooled UTE

the S/C running 8-9lbs boost is a nice smooth power awesome torque and pulls like tractor is nice to drive but does require extractors and 3" zaust ... i'll be adding an intercooler later on and bigger radiator ... tows a full dual axel trailer with ease

the Turbo I/C ute running 12lbs boost ... setup the way it is i hardly notice the lag its a safari kit thats been hiflowed has awesome power very spikey when u want it torques huge ...

i dunno how to compare the 2 cause its 2 diff setups for different purposes
but i would recomment turbo I/C for comp power for sure

yeah im more after grunty low crawl work where the trubo is just spooling or just about at idle, it just a dirty 2.4D, but intercooled and running 12psi, just sitting around talking shit to mates, got onto it and if could hook something like as menchened a old celica type, could this work? and does anyone one no of the cost of these old small blowers?

if ur stugglingn to turn ur tyres get the diffs regeared or transfercase gears

a 2 stroke diesel needs the supercharger just to start, but just cause it has a blower dosn't mean it is supercharged. The exhaust valves stay open slightly after the inlet port has closed therefore they only have atmospheric pressure in the cylinder at start of compresson and are thereofre classed as normally aspirated. However, these engines will also take a turbo no problems at all. The Detroit 92 series diesels 2 stroke diesels are a example of this.

I remember from a documentary a while a go that they measured the power needed to drive the sc on a v8 (guess 5.7 chevy). It needed 70+ hp to drive the sucker????

Chucky wrote:a 2 stroke diesel needs the supercharger just to start, but just cause it has a blower dosn't mean it is supercharged. The exhaust valves stay open slightly after the inlet port has closed therefore they only have atmospheric pressure in the cylinder at start of compresson and are thereofre classed as normally aspirated. However, these engines will also take a turbo no problems at all. The Detroit 92 series diesels 2 stroke diesels are a example of this.

dead right, pretty sure the turbo detroits run a slightly different cam/port timing so as to actually have positive pressure, the extra air volume is enough to blow out the exhaust gasses even if the exh valve closes just before the intake port.

yeah that is where you get the term blower from since they are used to blow all the burnt gasses out of the cylinder.

yeah that is where you get the term blower from since they are used to blow all the burnt gasses out of the cylinder.