Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Well after finally getting to see the buggys up close and gettin IT AWN at WE.ROCK round 2 its got the creative juices flowin ..........

Well the decision is I have a set of 60 series diffs ready my latest rig i recently picked up 4 door VITARA ..that was gunna receive a ute chop and 4 link rear 3 link setup and exo

Since the comp ( we rock ) i havent been able to get the idea of buildn one of these KICK ASS creations the HAULTECH buggys are certainly sweet and even though Adrians new MOON buggy certainly is .... and works very well , Tonys 2 seater buggy ( even though its hard to give credit to those QLD'S ) gets the tick in my book it just looks fugin awesome /and goes very well ( and yes I realise driver abiltiy has alot to do with it ) ..........and the new addition of the sway away ( Ithink ) shocks certainly adds bling factor ......... im sure part of it is that it still looks like a rig given the LUX gaurds bonnet and grille /lights


Now back on track Im up in arms to wat engine drivetrain gets the best re : best suited / reasonably priced / ease of service / and able to handle the abuse .........


From what ive read most of the Haultech guys are running .

1/ Rover V8 3.9l some with efi /some carb
2/ ZF auto
3/ LT230 transfer case

Now this combo gives the ability to have front digs /disconect the rear ..........good power from the v8 and it seems a reasonable tolerance to abuse givin (right foot ) after watchin TOM / RUFF / POS giving it some NUMBERS.........now im a real NOOB when it comes to most stuff but definatley rover tech is there any tricks needed to get this setup to work (to get front digs .....duz the centre difflock last long ? )


Now wat other combos could also be worth thinkin of that give similair characteristics to the above

I know of others building buggys or built runnin the v6 commodore donks / rotarys / chevs /and turboed TOY donks can these get the similair nod for go ahead for price , strenght , reliability, service and I really want if i go ahead front digs as it defianately gives and advantage ..........and if i could afford and ATLAS Transfer i would but this will be 1 very TIGHTLY BUILT PROJECT IF IT GOES AHEAD .............



Cheers

Dan

ps would be happy to receive PM's if any1 wants to reply in that form

Its Not just the fact you can do the front digs with rover stuff Dan,
the 3.32 low is a big bonus and a cost saver ,

Im in the same boat as you i think , I have one set up with V6 th700 lt230 , and with a set of nis or toy diffs and a cage im away .
But its my only regoed rig
So im Biulding a Tube buggy , at the moment looks like a twin cam 2ltr
with a modified LT95 trnsfer case section,
I would use just a front wheel drive transaxle but i can,t find the Magic crawl ratio im looking for (Although I might have) - other probs
with the transaxle type setups is Getting the full wieght to qualify 1000kg, I think . it might turn out to light . engine position i had one years ago with the motor beside the driver , don,t want this want to set up like Adrians either aft or foward of the driver , either way one drive shaft will be a little bit on the short side, .

Tiny was one of my favorites , revered atlas i think debneur short ass power glide and air cooled dakdak just unger 200hp Nice
and so compact.

Larry.

Most of the US guys are going for turboed 4 cylinder engines. From what I understand these engines weigh about 120kg. The rover engine weighs 140kg so isnt much heavier and would have to be alot more responsive cause its a V8 and doesent have a turbo. The engines the US guys were using before this was a cast chevy 4.3l V6 (195kg) or a cast 350 chev (260kg) a few guys even had the alloy LS1 (180kg). So by these guys going to the turboed 4cyl they have made a huge weight saving.

So Im hoping the rover V8 is still the best engine for a buggy cause its responsive, good power, compact, low CoG (cause its got small heads and push rods as opposed to DOHC) and very light.

Holden V6 should still be a good engine as well- not sure what they weigh.

Sam

Sam , Whats your expierence with the tire rim combos EG : 37 on 15 verse 37 on 17 Is there a noticable difference side sloping ?

Sorry hijak dan





Larry

Strange Rover wrote:Most of the US guys are going for turboed 4 cylinder engines. From what I understand these engines weigh about 120kg. The rover engine weighs 140kg so isnt much heavier and would have to be alot more responsive cause its a V8 and doesent have a turbo. The engines the US guys were using before this was a cast chevy 4.3l V6 (195kg) or a cast 350 chev (260kg) a few guys even had the alloy LS1 (180kg). So by these guys going to the turboed 4cyl they have made a huge weight saving.

So Im hoping the rover V8 is still the best engine for a buggy cause its responsive, good power, compact, low CoG (cause its got small heads and push rods as opposed to DOHC) and very light.

Holden V6 should still be a good engine as well- not sure what they weigh.

Sam

the commo v6 is a prey good donk, but cast iren aint light, jerremy is running a 1ggte twin turbo v6, light and powerfull

Tiny wrote: the commo v6 is a prey good donk, but cast iren aint light, jerremy is running a 1ggte twin turbo v6, light and powerfull

Im not sure that the 1ggt is all that light and probly isnt that powerfull either. The only figure I could find was 400lb = 180kg (same weight as an LS1 (alloy 350 chev - Gen3))

Isnt this motor a straight 6?? Which would make it long also sp probably not a good motor IMO.

Sam

does anyone have a real figure for how much the holden v6 weighs? i have googled myself senseless and can't find a number for it.
i know from hoisting mine in and out of my car a few times they aren't _that_ heavy?

the t700 suprised me with how light it is. it is nice to be able to remove and replace a gearbox by yourself without having to use the engine crane or anything. the internet says it is 70kg, but i don't think i could lift 70kg around as easy as i could move this t700? i'd be lucky to weigh 70kg myself.

Strange Rover wrote:

Tiny wrote: the commo v6 is a prey good donk, but cast iren aint light, jerremy is running a 1ggte twin turbo v6, light and powerfull

Im not sure that the 1ggt is all that light and probly isnt that powerfull either. The only figure I could find was 400lb = 180kg (same weight as an LS1 (alloy 350 chev - Gen3))

Isnt this motor a straight 6?? Which would make it long also sp probably not a good motor IMO.

Sam

its not that long, weight I heard a while ago was in eccess of 250KG for the ecotech sounds alot though

Wendle wrote:does anyone have a real figure for how much the holden v6 weighs? i have googled myself senseless and can't find a number for it.
i know from hoisting mine in and out of my car a few times they aren't _that_ heavy?

the t700 suprised me with how light it is. it is nice to be able to remove and replace a gearbox by yourself without having to use the engine crane or anything. the internet says it is 70kg, but i don't think i could lift 70kg around as easy as i could move this t700? i'd be lucky to weigh 70kg myself.

email EKW or one of the other big wrecking crowds and as for the shipping weight of one of the V6's .. I recon they would know it off the top of their head ..

may also be an idea to do a search for the origin of the motor and look for the Buick 3.8 .. It should give you some good numbers to begin with ..

I cant really answer the question but what is the desired overall weight that you guys try and achieve with these buggy's ??

Cause i guess that would steer you in the direction regarding driveline line and engine combination wouldn't it ??

the 1g-gte runs
210 hp @ 6200 rpm
275 Nm @ 3800 rpm

its a 2l twinturbo inline 6

and weighs 175kg

OK well it seems as though I have to do some research and find a good combo ....

But as it stands now the Rover is ahead in Donk weight ............or lack of

Will search for weights of auto / transfers


I would like to get most facets of the build sorted and on paper b4 starting so ..that the frame can obviously get built as tight and light as possible ............... have been sourcing pics of the type of style im heading for and just get as much info as possible .............


Question though at what point -Kg duz the weight factor loose its advantage of being too light .............weight wise i would be hoping to come in under say 1400kg



Thanx Dan and Larry no worries of a hijack concern the more info the betta the way im lookin at it

Strange Rover wrote: Holden V6 should still be a good engine as well- not sure what they weigh.

Sam

Has anyone thought of using the new alloytech 190kw V6 out of the new comodore. Holden has twin turboed it for a demo car so it shows that they are strong and being all alloy they would be light. Or would they be to expensive.

MARKx4 wrote:

Strange Rover wrote: Holden V6 should still be a good engine as well- not sure what they weigh.

Sam

Has anyone thought of using the new alloytech 190kw V6 out of the new comodore. Holden has twin turboed it for a demo car so it shows that they are strong and being all alloy they would be light. Or would they be to expensive.

This would be a good choice i think. Realy depends on how reliable they are. They havent been around long enough to prove themselves yet. But i imagine you would pay around $6000 for a motor alone at the moment. Give it a couple of years and they will prob be cheap enough to use.

A1MAV wrote:Question though at what point -Kg duz the weight factor loose its advantage of being too light .............weight wise i would be hoping to come in under say 1400kg

You would have to be the first person i have seen planning on building a buggy that is thinking a realistic weight.

Mine would be somewhere between 1350 and 1400 as it is now. Originally it weighed 1350 without me but ive added a little steel and removed a little weight as well so it should still be around the same weight. If i could loose a couple of hundred more it would be great. But as it is now it does work well.

whats adrians moon buggy weigh tony???

antt wrote:whats adrians moon buggy weigh tony???

We have not had a chance to weigh it yet.

Wendle wrote: i'd be lucky to weigh 70kg myself.

You might make 70Kg with a carton on your shoulder

love_mud wrote: may also be an idea to do a search for the origin of the motor and look for the Buick 3.8 .. It should give you some good numbers to begin with ..

On this list

http://www.mustangworks.com/articles/mi ... ights.html

Its got a Buick V6 as 170kg - which sounds about right for a holden V6.

Sam

RUFF wrote:[
Mine would be somewhere between 1350 and 1400 as it is now. Originally it weighed 1350 without me but ive added a little steel and removed a little weight as well so it should still be around the same weight. If i could loose a couple of hundred more it would be great. But as it is now it does work well.

MMM ok i would be guessin i may struggle to keep to around that wieght im un sure the ,of the differences between LUX to Cruiser comparison in diff weights but iwould assume there to be a few kg,s difference ........ i recall reading that Adrians old buggy weighed around 1410 kg so hopefully may still have a chance

Yeah I guess the removal of the coils / shock setup to just sway away shock would save a couple of kg although ive never held a sway away or fox shock to get some idea and the little bit of extra tube would be similair to the coil perches and brackets of the old setup ...


Did you change much of the front tube work to accomodate the lux guards bonnet ....



Dan

Wendle wrote:does anyone have a real figure for how much the holden v6 weighs? i have googled myself senseless and can't find a number for it.

Google found this http://www.hsv.com.au/news/99news/ls1_e ... ngine2.htm

And it says

The LS1’s reduced weight also translates into a significant drop in kerb weight which remains slightly higher than a Holden V6-powered equivalent because of the beefier hardware required for the extra performance. This includes the HSV-calibrated Turbo Hydra-Matic 4L60-E automatic transmission with its massive 298mm torque-converter. However, most of this extra weight is spread throughout the wheelbase leaving a weight distribution similar to more nimble V6 models. This in turn endows the most potent version of the WH Grange with unprecedented balance and levels of agility for a large 5.7 litre V8 luxury car.

So im guessing the LS1 is about the same weight as the V6 which puts it closer to 180kg

When you look at it the rover is a bloody light motor!!

Sam

Strange Rover wrote:

love_mud wrote: may also be an idea to do a search for the origin of the motor and look for the Buick 3.8 .. It should give you some good numbers to begin with ..

On this list

http://www.mustangworks.com/articles/mi ... ights.html

Its got a Buick V6 as 170kg - which sounds about right for a holden V6.

Sam

thanks guys. i am happy with those sort of numbers. i'd be happier still if i could mount it 6" lower, but that;s not gonna happen.

i wonder how much further forward the c/g is using this setup over the rover stuff? the motor is heavier, the box would have to be lighter(?) but the motor must also be a fair bit shorter? the commo v6 is only 530mm overall including pulleys/balancer.

with the lt230 adaptor and the lt230 mated to the th700 and the commodore v6 the overall length was 4 inches shorter than the rover combo.

GQ wrote:with the lt230 adaptor and the lt230 mated to the th700 and the commodore v6 the overall length was 4 inches shorter than the rover combo.

how short did you manage to get the adapter? i used a marks adapter and it is a big, long, heavy, stupid piece of shit. and it took me nearly 3 months to get it out of them after i paid them so i am allowed to say that.

I did some research on this not too long ago and came up with these numbers.
Correct me if they are wrong as I am no engine expert


Commo v6 is around 125kg
The LS1 is 47kg heavier than the Ecotec V6.

LS1/LS6
The LS6 is about 9 kilo less than the LS1.
Block - 52kg
Crank - 17.85kg
Head(s) - 9kg each
Pistons and Rods - 9kg
Cam - 3.5kg
Complete Long Motor assembled with oil - 172kg - 178kg.

Whatever you choose you really need to ensure it has decent torque from down low and across the rev range. Get a dyno graph of the motor in question and see what the torque curve looks like.

Commo v6 is around 125kg
TH350 is only 54kg's
Torque converter (full of oil) is 20kg
Atlas II weighs 55kg's

Total driveline weight is 257kgs

A cheaper option than the atlas II is the jeep/bronco Dana300 transfer case.
This is cast iron, gear driven, similar length to an atlas, 2.62:1 (and 4:1 if you upgrade), twin stick, etc.

Or if anyone has the $ you can look at a klune V and Dana 20 combo which costs around US$2800 but gives you something like 10:1, 4:1, 2.3:1, and 1:1

cheers

z

Wendle wrote:

GQ wrote:with the lt230 adaptor and the lt230 mated to the th700 and the commodore v6 the overall length was 4 inches shorter than the rover combo.

how short did you manage to get the adapter? i used a marks adapter and it is a big, long, heavy, stupid piece of shit. and it took me nearly 3 months to get it out of them after i paid them so i am allowed to say that.

What transfer you using?

I think Toms adapter was about 100 mm long and the only reason its that long cause the front output flange (if it was mounted engine in the front) would hit on the auto pan.

Sam

Wendle wrote: i don't think i could lift 70kg around as easy as i could move this t700? i'd be lucky to weigh 70kg myself.

Carlton, who you kidding, your hair weighs more than 70kg.

Strange Rover wrote:What transfer you using?

I think Toms adapter was about 100 mm long and the only reason its that long cause the front output flange (if it was mounted engine in the front) would hit on the auto pan.

Sam

nissan patrol GQ/GU, flipped upside down. the t700 is skinnier on the LH side, and the nissan case has roughly the same offset as the rover case, so the front output could comfortably sit next to the auto pan.

the marks product is a very, very well made bit of gear, it is just exactly wrong for what i am using it for. the adapter is 155mm long to bring the auto back up to the same length as the nissan box. you can throw a t700+5.0 in a patrol and basically not change anything.

i should have made an adapter myself, it could have been about 60mm long, or even shorter with some tricky machining to get the bolts into the back of the auto. i used the marks gear, because it was an easy "off the shelf" job. if i had of known it would take so long to get it i would have made it up myself. you live and learn i guess. i had to put a clocking ring in there also to get it where i wanted it, so there is another 16mm or so of length.

at the end of the day, it has worked out perfect, but i would have liked to have a little longer rear shaft, and maybe an inch or two less wheelbase. neither of which would be a problem if i wasn't using mog stuff.

i think the cruiser case adapters are quite long too, which may be something others should look out for if going that route.

I play around with rear engined 2wd buggies A LOT.
Engine weight is a big factor in the setup of these.

A mate and I both settled on rover 3.5s in our units.
(these block weight roughly the same as std cast iron 4 cyl)

My mate has gone a coupe of steps further.
He bought a runner motor for $400 off this site.
Bolted on 2 2nd hand turbos - that can from a pile of junk under a work bench somewhere.
Made all the fittings himself (hes a computer boffin by trade)
Running all that thru a 450 holley he got:
220kw at rear wheels and over 500nms of torque.
took 3 runs on the dyno to get it all sorted.
Big bore fuel system, replaced std dizzy etc.

but cost him around 2k all done.

A DAM cheap 450hp motor in anyones language.
(he just has to find a driveline to keep up with all the power now !! - go Paul)


Just some food for thought...

for something different what about the Pajero V6, auto and t/case, from memory they give good performance at a good weight