Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Im doing research on some vehicles before i leap into the deep end and buy myself one.
This will be my first 4wd.(i've been wheeling a few times, just that this would be my own vehicle)

Im on a tight budget, max of 5k, really dont want to spend more than 4 cause im a tightass, and im poor (double whammy).
But the advantage is that this vehicle is only for offroad, doesnt matter how it handles on road, aslong as it can still be driven to tracks, im happy.
So in buying a vehicle, this would be an advantage seeing as i dont care what the condition of the exterior is in(aslong it isnt covered in rust or has other massive problems, obviously).

From reading posts here ive gathered that the sierra, hilux and mq seem to be the most suggested in the -5k budget, and also just as first 4wds generally.

I have a few questions about these.
Ill start with the sierra.

1. Cheap, seems to have a shitload of aftermarket support and seems to be very popular among 4wdrivers in general.
But, im "mid" tall. 192cm (6'3) and im concerened as to how id fit in a sierra. (i should really just go and sit in one, but, i havent) Obviously i dont want to be uncomfortable when im supposed to be having fun.

2. They dont seem to be able to fit a large size tyre without extensive modifcations, now im only going off the fact that harder offroad vehicles seems to have atleast 33s all the way up to 37s. Is there some advantage to the sierra that makes it not need these larger sizes?



Hilux.
1. I seem to like larger vehicles in general and they're (the hilux) about the same size as a triton, which i learned to drive in, so im familiar with that size and quite happy with it.

2. They can fit a larger tyre more easily it seems than a sierra. (again, is it really necessary for the driving ill be doing, this'll be a little further down the post)

3. Lots of aftermarket support it seems. Although im not sure what its like for the earlier (80-84)models.

4. They seem to be quite cheap.

5. Way down the line if i get the hardcore modifcation bug, i could chuck a 1uz or 2uz in it if i was dedicated, or had the money to pay someone else to do it for me.


MQ.
1. As superficial as this is, i really dont like the look of the MQ, its looks a little like a retarded brick on wheels.

2. I really havent looked in the MQ as i dont really like it (as for mentioned above)


The general stuff.
Im in victoria so the type of wheeling id be doing in this vehicle is mostly mud. (the Otways, i've never driven on any of the alpine tracks)
So is it really necessary for 6 inch lifts and 35inch tyres just to drive muddy rutty tracks? Yes, i know some ruts can be very deep.

Plus, im the sought of person that likes to get it right the first time (ie, i dont want to buy a set of 33s if in 6 months time already need & want to get 35s). But again, will that ever be necessary (i guess its kind of hard to tell how hardcore ill get in time, but oh well)

Sorry for the long ass post, but these are the questions i need to ask, and after such a long time lurking, i think this might begin in making up for it.


Oh, and one pre-requisite is power steering, i've never even noticed if any of the aforementioned vehilce have it, but i f**king hate not having it.

It is worth considering an old 2 door rangie.

They can be picked up cheap
They are pretty powerful (V8)
The 4 speed manual is basically indestructible
They have good suspension travel in stock form
Almost all have Power Steer

Cons:
They like leaking oil
The axles/diffs are not as strong as a hilux, but probably stronger than a sierra.

I have a HJ60 Diesel landcruiser and love it. Consider one of these since you could pick one up and have some spare change. Maintenance is simple. If it's a 5 speed manual, make sure the gearbox is OK, other than that, they are great and very capable for first time 4WDers. If you wish to go smaller, a Dyhatsu Rocky is good value. If you squint, they look like a disco (not sure if that's a good or a bad thing). They have a very strong drive train and are under rated in my opinion.
Cheers,
Glen.

I think that the 3 you picked are probably the best to start with.

A sierra has much more ground clearance on 31"s than say a GQ Patrol on 33"s - partly due to how much you need to lift it to clear the 31"s in the first place and partly due to the smaller diffs providing greater clearance.

The "ramp over angle" is also far superior on a shorter wheelbase - great for stepping over rocks, but easier for rolling ass-over-tit on a steep climb when it all goes wrong.

The sierra has more aftermarket mods and support than any other 4wd vehicle in the world. You will need to do a few things to a sierra to make it tough, but witha few well chosen mods it will be a very capable truck indeed.


A Hilux or MQ is much tougher in stock form and wont need anywhere near as many mods to fit bigger rubber, but the improvement over stock isn't as great until you reach the levels that cause similar issues to the zook (eg 35"s and above you risk axle breakage same as the zook).

They will both be substantially more expensive to run and modify than the sierra.

ISUZUROVER wrote:It is worth considering an old 2 door rangie.

They can be picked up cheap
They are pretty powerful (V8)
The 4 speed manual is basically indestructible
They have good suspension travel in stock form
Almost all have Power Steer

Cons:
They like leaking oil
The axles/diffs are not as strong as a hilux, but probably stronger than a sierra.

I've seen them around and they seem to be pretty cheap, although everyone i talk to, their eyes light up in horror at a slight mention of a Range Rover. Now whether this is appropriate and they are shocking, i dont know, because these people havent really been 4wd savey, so its hard to tell with my ignorance towards the subject whether what they're saying are bullshit rumours or truth.
And i seem to suck at using the search function. Its seems to hate me for some reason, whatever i search for, it never seems to come up.


The HJ60 i think is a little too large for my tastes.

Beastmavster wrote: A sierra has much more ground clearance on 31"s than say a GQ Patrol on 33"s - partly due to how much you need to lift it to clear the 31"s in the first place and partly due to the smaller diffs providing greater clearance.

This is good to hear.
Are there any specification threads that give mm height for sierra and hilux diffs after different size tyres that you know of?

Room in the zook.

Not exactly roomy, but also not cramped. I'm over 6" and pretty big. I just tend to rest my right arm on the door for a bit more room. You can still easily drive without your arm hanging out the door, but its more comfy.

In the zook you're in a more upright position, so I don't find myself hitting my legs on the steering wheel like I do in hatches. My clutch has a nice amount of freeplay but if the clutch didn't have this on mine my left foot would be a bit sore. But it'd probably depend on how you drive.

So yeah, not exactly the roomiest car around, but you should fit. Hopefully. Just see if you can fit in one.

I think the "original" redzook (NSW) has the clearances on zook to lux diffs.

Your comment on MQ patrols

Do you intend on driving the vehicle any great distances? If so the Sierra may be a little small. Hilux is very versatile, sierra is very nimble.

sierrajim wrote:I think the "original" redzook (NSW) has the clearances on zook to lux diffs.

Your comment on MQ patrols

Do you intend on driving the vehicle any great distances? If so the Sierra may be a little small. Hilux is very versatile, sierra is very nimble.

The longest distance will be a few hundred kms too alpine tracks. (it seems probable that ill want to tackle some in the future)

I think you could be happy with a good specimen of any of the three you've listed there. I would personally prefer an MQ short wheelbase out of those options but to be honest if you were just to shop around for the very best example in your price range any of the three would serve you well.

The sierra would have to be the least comfortable (but cheapest to run) of the three, but I would say they'd all be of roughly similar capabilities for your spend.

A lot of people seem to have heaps and heaps of fun in sierras then move on to something bigger when they are sick of the (dis)comfort levels.

From what I have personally witnessed the weakest off-road performer of those three would be the hilux but I know there will be others who swear they are great off-road, so maybe I have just seen lousy examples.

Just my thoughts. Good luck.

Jason

backspace wrote: I've seen them around and they seem to be pretty cheap, although everyone i talk to, their eyes light up in horror at a slight mention of a Range Rover. Now whether this is appropriate and they are shocking, i dont know, because these people havent really been 4wd savey, so its hard to tell with my ignorance towards the subject whether what they're saying are bullshit rumours or truth.

You get that a lot. I think people are just afraid of something different (not a toyota like EVERYONE owns).

If you know what you are doing they are easy to work on and just as reliable as other 4x4's. There are HEAPS of aftermarket bits available, and most of the bits from rangies 1970-1992, all discoveries 1989-2000, and 110 landies 1984-current are interchengeable (to a greater or lesser degree), so heaps or parts around.

One main reason they are cheap is they are getting on a bit and use a fair bit of fuel, but either of these are no problem for a weekend offroader. There is a reason that many of the rock crawling buggies on here use range drivetrains (engine/gearbox/Tcase), and suspension components.

It would appear from your previous comments (mq a brick outhouse) that outside appearance does bother you maybe just a little.

Hmmm sierras are fun but as mentioned little smallish and ummm high (read rolloverish)

I would probably go an older dual cab hilux (diesel ) more room, very capable, more grunt (read torque)

Just dont let the TOJO name put you off

ISUZUROVER wrote:If you know what you are doing they are easy to work on and just as reliable as other 4x4's. There are HEAPS of aftermarket bits available, and most of the bits from rangies 1970-1992, all discoveries 1989-2000, and 110 landies 1984-current are interchengeable (to a greater or lesser degree), so heaps or parts around.

One main reason they are cheap is they are getting on a bit and use a fair bit of fuel, but either of these are no problem for a weekend offroader. There is a reason that many of the rock crawling buggies on here use range drivetrains (engine/gearbox/Tcase), and suspension components.

I guess this would be a problem, as i dont know what im doing, i never really know what im doing.

Would be good learning experience though.


I am tempted by the RR because i like a vehicle of that size. And they seem to be easily modified to take a large tyre. (again, i still dont understand exactly how to figure out the required tye size and the like, but it seems that large tyres are easily adapted to the RR so ill just go with the blind logic and think it must be good.)

Wiring and axles seem to be the main problems of early RRs i gather from searching, is this accurate?
Any other big problems i've missed?

What are the general costs for fixing these problems?(if there is a popular way)

add oil leaks and apparently fuel consumption.

and axles are fairly weak on any bigger tires

i.e. very new disco on 33's snapped 3 axles on an obsticle 2 40 series toyotas drove with open diffs...

kinda the nail in the coffin of my respect for their axles

backspace wrote: Wiring and axles seem to be the main problems of early RRs i gather from searching, is this accurate?
Any other big problems i've missed?

What are the general costs for fixing these problems?(if there is a popular way)

Wiring is not a huge problem, just the Lucas components the wires are attached to . The only major thing that you need to do with the wiring is fit a relay to the headlight circuit if someone hasn't done it already.

As for the axles, the rangies come with about the same size tyres as a hilux - about 29" diameter. Up to about 31" tyres the axles hold up pretty well (especially if you don't have lockers). Bigger than that and it is a good idea to upgrade. Common upgrades are:

Fitting 24 spline axles from a later model rangie/discovery - fine up to about 33" tyres
Maxi-Drive lockers (comes with replacement, stronger axles) - fine up to about 35" tyres (possibly more if you fit a 110 (Salisbury) rear axle)
ARB/Macnamara lockers and Maxi-Drive/Macnamara axles - fine up to about 35"
Toyota diff centres and Macnamara axles - good for about 37+"
Nissan GQ/GU axles - good for about 37+"

As with anything it depends how you drive it. I know someone with a 6.2L Chev diesel and stock axles (does a lot of 4x4ing) who has never broken an axle, despite the huge amount of torque the engine has.