REAR STEER on the cheap

[GQ4.8coilcab]

Jus found out the other day that the front steering assembly can bolt to the rear as the rear bolt pattern is the same. How cool is that. Or is it a lie. I got a spare rangie in the yard and my old man is a sheetmetal worker. So I can use my old rangie for parts (hyrdo pump, front assembly) and my old man to weld on all the brackets. I reckon i could do it all for $1K. How kool is that. Any one ever attempted it. I am also considering drop boxes. Not MD's they are to expensive. I wanna make my own. My brother inlaw has a 3axis machine so i am sure i can do it. Any help would be great.
Cheers JULIAN

[ISUZUROVER]

The flanges may be the same bolt pattern but they are about 6" further out - so you could do it but would either need to reduce the width or need 6" more track. Also the CV joints won't hold up. Mal Story uses 101 forward control CV's on his rear steer conversions, they are much bigger than the biggest patrol or cruiser CV, (with 1.47" axles) so you need a special swivel ball to fit them. Doing a rear steer setup with 30 spline longfields would be another option.

As to portals, Bill (daddylonglegs) has built his own custom portals - do a search on here...

[THE 109]

as far as i know mal uses standard rangie cv's in the rear when using his drop boxs and the 101 cv's without the drop boxs.

[ISUZUROVER]

as far as i know mal uses standard rangie cv's in the rear when using his drop boxs and the 101 cv's without the drop boxs.

I haven't seen any MD portal setups with rear steer - have you?

With a portal box the rangie CVs would be fine for a rear application.

[GQ4.8coilcab]

MD make a rear diff with drop boxes and rear steer, thats where i got the idea. But i heard its like $15k or more

[uninformed]

rears proabably not much good without the front

yes, Maxi-drive do use a range rover cv in portal axle rear steer and still use the 101 cv and custom swivel for non-portal. you'd be surprised at the amount of sets he has sold and a few of these have been rear steer
cheers, serg

[uninformed]

ps, i have a magizine that has a range rover chassis zook bodied rear steer rig over in europe. the rear axle is definately a front converted.
i believe Maxi-drive did some axle/cv work for this rig through outback-imports, there eruopean distributor

serg

[Bush65]

Maxidrive portals with rear steer.

1st from recent LR event - link to pics was posted by Maggot. I believe Bruce Davis and Macquarie 4 x 4 both had something to do with this.

2nd from Maxidrive importer in Europe (France?).

[ISUZUROVER]

Maxidrive portals with rear steer.

1st from recent LR event - link to pics was posted by Maggot. I believe Bruce Davis and Macquarie 4 x 4 both had something to do with this.

2nd from Maxidrive importer in Europe (France?).

Thanks John - I have seen both of those pictures - didn't twig that they had portals AND rear steer.

Even with the portal reduction, you would think that the 10-spine stub axle would have a hard time.

[DaveS3]

Is the stub intergal to the flange?

If not, it wouldnt be a hard task to have some stronger ones machined / splined.

Even the flange could be done.

[ISUZUROVER]

Is the stub intergal to the flange?

If not, it wouldnt be a hard task to have some stronger ones machined / splined.

Even the flange could be done.

The problem is you need to broach the CV to the same spline. I remember Bill having problems with the CV shrinking or expanding when trying to do this.

And then you no longer have a stock CV. You might as well cut the stub off some longfields and broach them if going that far.

But Mal knows what he is doing and IME will refuse to sell you something if he thinks it isn't up to the task.

[THE 109]

the stubs are separate from the flange,they're only short.

[uninformed]

From what Mal has told me, the portal boxes are withstanding a pretty had time, theres a set on Def 130 that came third in a trophy challenge in africa and a set on a tomcat that won a winch challenge event in russia. i'm not sure if anyone is running them with large (37+) tyres in hi traction conditions
Serg

[Bush65]

Is the stub intergal to the flange?

If not, it wouldnt be a hard task to have some stronger ones machined / splined.

Even the flange could be done.

The problem is you need to broach the CV to the same spline. I remember Bill having problems with the CV shrinking or expanding when trying to do this.

And then you no longer have a stock CV. You might as well cut the stub off some longfields and broach them if going that far.

But Mal knows what he is doing and IME will refuse to sell you something if he thinks it isn't up to the task.

No you don't. The cv is before the portal reduction.

[ISUZUROVER]

No you don't. The cv is before the portal reduction.

Just realised Dave was talking about the outer stub/drive flange. I was talking about the inner stub axle that must exist between the upper gear ad the CV, which would presumably be 10-spline, since Mal told me (and other people have said) that he uses the stubless rangie CV's in the portal kits. If you have 23/24 spline inner axles, and 24 spline or larger outer stub from the bottom gear to the drive flange, then surely the 10-spline stub from the CV to the upper gear would be the weakest point in the setup (which isn't all that accessible if it breaks).

But I'm sure it is more than strong enough. And I definitely wouldn't turn down a set .

[Bush65]

It does not look like 10 spline in this pic.

Also remember that the portal reduction is 1.3:1 so the outer stub/drive flange is loaded almost that much more than the cv.

[rick130]

on the subject of CV's, what are KAM using ?
It appears to be a 23/24 spline stubless CV, with a grooved (fused) stub shaft.
I asked on a KAM thread on LRA, but no reply, as yet.

[rick130]

and on the subject of rear steer, at one stage I thought of looking into using hydraulic lower rear trailing arms to generate a few degrees of steer either way. The A arm ball joint is an excellent pivot point, although the cylinders would be a little too vulnerable, but it would be a darn sight cheaper than 'real' rear steer. (only a few degrees would help big time on the 130)
If the chassis ears were moved up and forwards, I suppose some short stroke cylinders could be fitted in the end of the arms, and then it might be a little more practical. Spherical bearings, or at least a high misalignment 'Johnny' joint would need to be used on the axle end of the arms.
Basically billy kart steering in the back end.

The hard part would be easily mechanically locking it for legallity purposes, as I'd want to use it on road in parking/turning situations etc.

[bushy555]

i'm not sure if anyone is running them with large (37+) tyres in hi traction conditions
Serg

Talked to Mal about his Portals probably over 12 months ago now. With whatever the setup of the splines/CV's were at that time, he replied to me (after a query about 39" tyres on the portals), don't even think about running anything larger than 35" tyres - problems will arise.

Maybe the internals have since been made stronger?

[Bush65]

and on the subject of rear steer, at one stage I thought of looking into using hydraulic lower rear trailing arms to generate a few degrees of steer either way. The A arm ball joint is an excellent pivot point, although the cylinders would be a little too vulnerable, but it would be a darn sight cheaper than 'real' rear steer. (only a few degrees would help big time on the 130)
If the chassis ears were moved up and forwards, I suppose some short stroke cylinders could be fitted in the end of the arms, and then it might be a little more practical. Spherical bearings, or at least a high misalignment 'Johnny' joint would need to be used on the axle end of the arms.
Basically billy kart steering in the back end.

The hard part would be easily mechanically locking it for legallity purposes, as I'd want to use it on road in parking/turning situations etc.

Now theres a thought. Now thinking along the lines of a rocker at the chassis end of the trailing arm. Hydraulic cyl on one side of rocker pivot, trailing arm at the other. A locking pin through the rocker should be easy to arrange.

The roll steer from rangie rear suspension generally works against you off road and it would be an advantage if it was opposite (or even neutral). But on the highway the roll understeer is better.

[rick130]

Now thinking along the lines of a rocker at the chassis end of the trailing arm. Hydraulic cyl on one side of rocker pivot, trailing arm at the other. A locking pin through the rocker should be easy to arrange.

gets the cylinder up, out of the way, and you could use a motion ratio to suit a smaller ram.........

[rick130]

It's amazing how only a few degrees on the rear can make a difference. I remember watching a then new Mazda 929 parking in the early-mid 90's. The way the bloke driving approached the parking spot, there was no way he was going to get into it, then he just turned the wheel, the rear wheels steered the opposite way and he was in.
Brilliant.
All the systems in use at the time steered a degree or two in the same direction as the front wheels at speed for stability, then the opposite way at low, parking speeds.
Mazda used an electronic/hydraulic setup, Honda a mechanical rack across the rear axle.