Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I'm having trouble turning my 35's when running low PSI. So I had the pump and box both reco'd and it made a slight difference, but still nowhere near what I want it to be. I know the pump is putting out good pressure because I just had it tested..... and the box is as good as it's going to get for a 20yr old pump thats just been reco'd.

I also want to run bigger rubbers in the future too. Sooooooooooo,

Can anyone tell me websites with info, or people to get in touch with that have had something like this done before. I'm up for doing the install but would just need someone to point me in the right direction. And I want to get it on the rig within the next 2 months.

As far as I know... hydro assisted steering is still legal(engineerable) as it retains the OE steering links etc (correct me if I'm wrong!!)

Ohhhh, and any benefits/pitfalls/things to look out for, would be of help too.

Cheers.

Have you checked out Pirate 4x4 ?? they have a dummies guide for setting it up fairly comprehensive. A good read at least..

You could stick with your standard links but most would go Hi-steer and Hydro to complement each other....

JemmyBubbles wrote:Have you checked out Pirate 4x4 ?? they have a dummies guide for setting it up fairly comprehensive. A good read at least..

You could stick with your standard links but most would go Hi-steer and Hydro to complement each other....

The only info I could find on there is the "full hydro" steering... I know it's similar, but not quite the same. Maybe I'm just having a blonde moment and can't find it!!!

everytime i sit down and think about it,

assisted steering doesn't work properly, becasue they both the manual steer and hydro, would be fighting each other,

the only way i can see it working would be runnin something like a sequence valve off ya standard power steer,

the best system is ram assisted steer.

there is a piece in Pirate4x4 that deals with "tapping" a p/s box so that you can run a ram.

found it

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... index.html



hope this helps

Mitch

mooman wrote:the best system is ram assisted steer.

there is a piece in Pirate4x4 that deals with "tapping" a p/s box so that you can run a ram.

found it

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... index.html



hope this helps

Mitch

http://www.wildyoats.com/hydraulic_assist_tech.htm - from the bottom of the page you quoted - has all the info you need. Brilliant!

core engineering in qld does hydro assist, plumed into the box. they make their own rams from scratch as he feels the oil volume is incorrect in off the shelf stuff. it wasn't that dear from memory either might have been $1400 all up but it was a while ago i had a yarn. it was for a gq. but he is a toyota man. cheers bru

does anyone have a circuit drawing of the power steer system.

bru21 wrote:core engineering in qld does hydro assist, plumed into the box. they make their own rams from scratch as he feels the oil volume is incorrect in off the shelf stuff. it wasn't that dear from memory either might have been $1400 all up but it was a while ago i had a yarn. it was for a gq. but he is a toyota man. cheers bru

You wouldn't happen to know contact details or a website... tried a search and only came up with some joint in SA.

I've been told that the rams usually don't turn as fast as you normally would, so you have to adjust your driving to suit. These rams sound the goods I reckon, if they can push/pull the wheels at the same speed you turn.

brighty wrote:

bru21 wrote:core engineering in qld does hydro assist, plumed into the box. they make their own rams from scratch as he feels the oil volume is incorrect in off the shelf stuff. it wasn't that dear from memory either might have been $1400 all up but it was a while ago i had a yarn. it was for a gq. but he is a toyota man. cheers bru

You wouldn't happen to know contact details or a website... tried a search and only came up with some joint in SA.

I've been told that the rams usually don't turn as fast as you normally would, so you have to adjust your driving to suit. These rams sound the goods I reckon, if they can push/pull the wheels at the same speed you turn.

don't worry about em, just go get ya self ag-cylinder.

the reason it turns slower than u, is because oil takes the easist path, so it will have to build up pressure to move the cylinder.

just "T" in before the steering box, run an adjustable flow divider and adjust the flow to the cylinder to be more than the box.

customhilux wrote:
don't worry about em, just go get ya self ag-cylinder.

the reason it turns slower than u, is because oil takes the easist path, so it will have to build up pressure to move the cylinder.

just "T" in before the steering box, run an adjustable flow divider and adjust the flow to the cylinder to be more than the box.

Can you explain the AG-cylinder??? I'm a novice a this shiat...

From the info I've read, you need two outlets from the box.. one for left turn, and one for right turn on the ram. If I by-passed the box and ran straight to the ram, wouldn't it only give me one outlet ... in effect, not really assisting in the steering process.

You still want the box to function at it's optimum level, but by tapping into both the left and right sides of it, it then allows the same amount of pressure to build within the ram aswell as the box(once all air is out of the system).... hence the ram "assisting" the box. Correct me if I'm wrong , but thats the way I've understood it from all the reading/research I've been doing over the last week.

brighty wrote:...Can you explain the AG-cylinder??? I'm a novice a this shiat...

AG for agriculture. They are less expensive hydraulic cylinders used on farm machinery, behind tractors etc.

You can get them from hydraulic places (and probably at farm machinery places).

customhilux wrote:
don't worry about em, just go get ya self ag-cylinder.

the reason it turns slower than u, is because oil takes the easist path, so it will have to build up pressure to move the cylinder.

just "T" in before the steering box, run an adjustable flow divider and adjust the flow to the cylinder to be more than the box.

So how does the Cyl know which way to turn? Problem with an Ag Cyl is it cant be pulled appart. Go with an industrial cyl then you can pull it appart to set the perfect stroke.

brighty wrote:

From the info I've read, you need two outlets from the box.. one for left turn, and one for right turn on the ram. If I by-passed the box and ran straight to the ram, wouldn't it only give me one outlet ... in effect, not really assisting in the steering process.

You still want the box to function at it's optimum level, but by tapping into both the left and right sides of it, it then allows the same amount of pressure to build within the ram aswell as the box(once all air is out of the system).... hence the ram "assisting" the box. Correct me if I'm wrong , but thats the way I've understood it from all the reading/research I've been doing over the last week.

You are correct. It needs to have feed from both sides. The problem your going to have is the steering becomes realy slow and actually about twice as heavy. BUT it rarely changes from how heavy it is. Wether its steering on road or you have a tyre bound up and your pushing the car sideways while turning it. I can park my buggy beside a forklift with the tyre hard against it and start turning and the effort doesnt change it just pushes the rig away from the forklift.

The Simplest steering box ever is the Rover Steering box when it comes to adding Hydro assist. This is the main reason we all run Rover boxes in the Haultech buggies. You only need to remove the top of the box and drill and tap the bleader for one line and the external pipe around the outside of the box gets a T in it for the other line. Its a 1/2 hour job in the car.

RUFF wrote: You are correct. It needs to have feed from both sides. The problem your going to have is the steering becomes realy slow and actually about twice as heavy. BUT it rarely changes from how heavy it is. Wether its steering on road or you have a tyre bound up and your pushing the car sideways while turning it. I can park my buggy beside a forklift with the tyre hard against it and start turning and the effort doesnt change it just pushes the rig away from the forklift.

The Simplest steering box ever is the Rover Steering box when it comes to adding Hydro assist. This is the main reason we all run Rover boxes in the Haultech buggies. You only need to remove the top of the box and drill and tap the bleader for one line and the external pipe around the outside of the box gets a T in it for the other line. Its a 1/2 hour job in the car.

If you say the steering is going to get twice as heavy... thats not really what I'm looking for... the steering at the moment is similar to driving a lux with no power steer in it(heavy, but not that heavy)

My stocko 60 runs 33's and I am able to turn it using just 2 fingers, where as my SOA 60 series chev with 35's is alot harder and near impossible when to turn running low psi(no lower than 15psi) it's a definite no go when bound up!!!!

As I've said in previous posts, both pump and box in the SOA 60 are fully reco'd, so there shouldn't be any probs there. I had the pump pressures tested on both of them and came back very similar in pressure outputs. I can post up the results if needed... (just need to find them first...)

THe style of box doesn't really worry me, as I have a spare box on the floor I can play with if I need to and I have another which is disassembled to just the external casing... this helps in finding where to drill the good box when I get round to doing it.


Thanks everyone for the input... this should make a great read for future people interested in Hydro Assisted Power Steering.

RUFF wrote:

customhilux wrote:
don't worry about em, just go get ya self ag-cylinder.

the reason it turns slower than u, is because oil takes the easist path, so it will have to build up pressure to move the cylinder.

just "T" in before the steering box, run an adjustable flow divider and adjust the flow to the cylinder to be more than the box.

So how does the Cyl know which way to turn? Problem with an Ag Cyl is it cant be pulled appart. Go with an industrial cyl then you can pull it appart to set the perfect stroke.

not true, PTE cylinders and Deere john's can be rebuilt.

i haven't looked at the steering box, so all it is, is pressure port and tank line,

where the turning of the steering wheel, rotate's a spool, causing the flow of the oil, to go from the pressure leg across to the direction u want.

hey ruff, do u find it easier to turn one way than the other.

customhilux wrote:

RUFF wrote:

customhilux wrote:
don't worry about em, just go get ya self ag-cylinder.

the reason it turns slower than u, is because oil takes the easist path, so it will have to build up pressure to move the cylinder.

just "T" in before the steering box, run an adjustable flow divider and adjust the flow to the cylinder to be more than the box.

So how does the Cyl know which way to turn? Problem with an Ag Cyl is it cant be pulled appart. Go with an industrial cyl then you can pull it appart to set the perfect stroke.

not true, PTE cylinders and Deere john's can be rebuilt.

i haven't looked at the steering box, so all it is, is pressure port and tank line,

where the turning of the steering wheel, rotate's a spool, causing the flow of the oil, to go from the pressure leg across to the direction u want.

hey ruff, do u find it easier to turn one way than the other.

Yes but this also has to do with the fact im using a Single ended ram. So it takes more fluid to turn one way than the other. The difference between the 2 is minimal.

So what is the difference between an Ag Cyl and an Industrial?

brighty wrote:
If you say the steering is going to get twice as heavy... thats not really what I'm looking for... the steering at the moment is similar to driving a lux with no power steer in it(heavy, but not that heavy)

My stocko 60 runs 33's and I am able to turn it using just 2 fingers, where as my SOA 60 series chev with 35's is alot harder and near impossible when to turn running low psi(no lower than 15psi) it's a definite no go when bound up!!!!

As I've said in previous posts, both pump and box in the SOA 60 are fully reco'd, so there shouldn't be any probs there. I had the pump pressures tested on both of them and came back very similar in pressure outputs. I can post up the results if needed... (just need to find them first...)

THe style of box doesn't really worry me, as I have a spare box on the floor I can play with if I need to and I have another which is disassembled to just the external casing... this helps in finding where to drill the good box when I get round to doing it.


Thanks everyone for the input... this should make a great read for future people interested in Hydro Assisted Power Steering.

Its prob not twice as heavy but its defianatly heavier. You will have almost no difference in how heavy it is wether you have 60PSI or 5PSI with hydro assist.

It sounds to me that your SOA 60 has a caster problem if its so heavy to steer.

RUFF wrote:
Its prob not twice as heavy but its defianatly heavier. You will have almost no difference in how heavy it is wether you have 60PSI or 5PSI with hydro assist.

It sounds to me that your SOA 60 has a caster problem if its so heavy to steer.

If it's a caster prob... how can I find the prob and then rectify it??? Sorry, but steering geometry is double dutch to me.

Ruff

Just to get this straight. Do Haultech use the LR box with double ended rams? When you say it is heavier, do you mean heavier than steering under normal conditions (i.e 30psi, flat ground, level vehicle) but that it remains the same even when the vehicle is in a hole, all the weight on one front wheel?

Tim

tim wrote:Ruff

Just to get this straight. Do Haultech use the LR box with double ended rams? When you say it is heavier, do you mean heavier than steering under normal conditions (i.e 30psi, flat ground, level vehicle) but that it remains the same even when the vehicle is in a hole, all the weight on one front wheel?

Tim

It would be very similar to a 4wd on 35s with 30PSI in the tyres trying to park in a CarPark with no power steering. It basicaly remains the same at all times. And we use a single ended ram as they are less prone to damage and are much easier to mount.

brighty wrote:

RUFF wrote:
Its prob not twice as heavy but its defianatly heavier. You will have almost no difference in how heavy it is wether you have 60PSI or 5PSI with hydro assist.

It sounds to me that your SOA 60 has a caster problem if its so heavy to steer.

If it's a caster prob... how can I find the prob and then rectify it??? Sorry, but steering geometry is double dutch to me.

You need to find out how much castor it should have had from factory and either add castor wedges or cut and rotate the Knuckles to correct the castor. It is better to cut and rotate the knuckles but its not a simple job for everyone.

With the hydro assist dose it take stress out if the pump and do you need to run a cooler

4sum4 wrote:With the hydro assist dose it take stress out if the pump and do you need to run a cooler

It makes the pump work a little harder but it takes stress off the steering box. I dont run a cooler but its not a bad idea.

How badly dose it reduce road feel for highway driving?
Is it annoying or dangerous driving at 110k with hydro assist?
Also what are the legalities of it?

Was toying with the idea but maybe using quick disconect hydro fittings on the lines and pins on the end of the ram so it can be removed while on road.
Paul.

RUFF wrote:

customhilux wrote:

RUFF wrote:

customhilux wrote:
don't worry about em, just go get ya self ag-cylinder.

the reason it turns slower than u, is because oil takes the easist path, so it will have to build up pressure to move the cylinder.

just "T" in before the steering box, run an adjustable flow divider and adjust the flow to the cylinder to be more than the box.

So how does the Cyl know which way to turn? Problem with an Ag Cyl is it cant be pulled appart. Go with an industrial cyl then you can pull it appart to set the perfect stroke.

not true, PTE cylinders and Deere john's can be rebuilt.

i haven't looked at the steering box, so all it is, is pressure port and tank line,

where the turning of the steering wheel, rotate's a spool, causing the flow of the oil, to go from the pressure leg across to the direction u want.

hey ruff, do u find it easier to turn one way than the other.

Yes but this also has to do with the fact im using a Single ended ram. So it takes more fluid to turn one way than the other. The difference between the 2 is minimal.

So what is the difference between an Ag Cyl and an Industrial?

yeah i thought it would be easier, your cylinders displacement is probably about 2:1,

the difference between an ag cyl and an idustrial cyl, is the quality, ag cyl are made on the cheap, where as it's cheaper to buy a new one then repair them(if your takin it to a hydraulic workshop), see once u start getting into, new rod, gland, hone the barrel, it's not worth fixing one.

for hydro assist i would go with the PTE cylinder, i think BJ was running one on his wasn't he.

hey 4sum4, there wont be much difference in the load cause your relief will still cut in when it builds pressure, but if it's relievin alot you oil is goin to get hot.

hey ruff i'm not having ago at ya, just adding more info to the hydro assist page, i haven't done hydro assist, but i do hydraulics for a living, so any Q's i might be able to help.

Didn`t the old school F350`s come out with a type of Hydro assit,would that be any good for our purposes?

4sum4 wrote:Didn`t the old school F350`s come out with a type of Hydro assit,would that be any good for our purposes?

Bump,Anyone???

80 series box has more volume in it and turns the wheel alot easier than the 60 series box not sure whats involved in fitting it to a 60.
As for the pumps they all run about the same volume and pressure.

Who recoed the box and pump?

ausyota wrote:How badly dose it reduce road feel for highway driving?
Is it annoying or dangerous driving at 110k with hydro assist?
Also what are the legalities of it?

The effect of driving with ram assist on the road at 110km/h is like that of having a really good steering damper ie the wheels only turn when there is an imput from the steering wheel. To get acceptable "feel" in the steering, it all comes down to the size of the ram. I've used 1 1/2" bore with reasonable success. The only downside is turning from full lock one way to full lock the other. The box (lux in my case) phisically cannot pass the fluid to the ram fast enough. What you feel in normal driving is that you learn to just predict your steering a bit because the box has to register the wheel resistance to being turned before it will direct fluid to the ram. And unless your box is allowing the fluid in the ram to cycle, you'll have no chance to fight it with your manual steering imput.

As to it being legal; as long as there is no significant delay and you can achieve the lane change test (a Queensland Transport test) then it is legal as you are still maintaining the mechanical steering linkages and the wheels can still be turned manually with the engine off.