Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:17 pm**

OK, Now after twice snapping axle studs, I've decided to replace the old 60 series axles studs (8mm) with the 100 seires ones(10mm)

So, I've drilled and tapped the holes with an M10 thread to suit the new studs..... and fitted the studs as well. Everything went well with no probs.... just got to drill the holes bigger on the axle to suit the new studs....

HOWEVER.... the question I have is.... how do you make the taper in the axle (for the cone washers) larger to suit the new cone washers???? Is there any sort of tool to buy that will reem it out a bit to make it sit more snuggly in the axle???

Any help would be appreciated.... I want to finish this off tomorrow(Sat) so I can go and test it out and have a bit of fun!!!

Cheers,
Brighty.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:21 pm**

brighty wrote:OK, Now after twice snapping axle studs, I've decided to replace the old 60 series axles studs (8mm) with the 100 seires ones(10mm)

So, I've drilled and tapped the holes with an M10 thread to suit the new studs..... and fitted the studs as well. Everything went well with no probs.... just got to drill the holes bigger on the axle to suit the new studs....

HOWEVER.... the question I have is.... how do you make the taper in the axle (for the cone washers) larger to suit the new cone washers???? Is there any sort of tool to buy that will reem it out a bit to make it sit more snuggly in the axle???

Any help would be appreciated.... I want to finish this off tomorrow(Sat) so I can go and test it out and have a bit of fun!!!

Cheers,
Brighty.

yeh you need to machine the right taper to accept the 100series cone washers.

the axle is very hard and will take a good drill bit to drill and plenty of cutting fluid. Theres a few guys on here that have the bit to do it, you might be able to take the axles to them and give em a carton or 3 and have them do it.

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:24 pm**

what sort of bit am I looking for if I were to go buy one????

Posted: **Fri Oct 21, 2005 9:27 pm**

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=11856

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?id=5864

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:40 pm**

A bent axle will shear off these studs - get a straight one and don't overtighten them and you'll be right.

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:44 pm**

What is it looking like costing you bright one, the conversion?

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:48 pm**

joel HJ60 wrote:What is it looking like costing you bright one, the conversion?

* Studs, cone washers, washers & nuts x 12 = $90-$95 (from toyota)
* M10 1.25 fine thread Tap = $35
* Drill bit 11/32 = $8.50 (for drilling larger hole into the hub to be tapped)
* Drill bit 10.5mm = $15 (for drilling clearance hole in axles)
* Cutting fluid = $10

You might want to add onto that....
-rear axle seals
-bearing kit

The only thing that i'm trying to work out now is how to enlarge the tapered axle housing where the cone washers sit into..... Once I work that out, I'll edit this post and add it to it.

I suggest you use a drill press to drill all the holes out.... much easier to keep the holes straight and true.

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2005 8:21 pm**

I wouldnt bother doing the conversion this way. You would be better off drilling the hub out and tap it to 3/8UNF and then throw away the cone washers. Buy some Grade 12 Cap head bolts and bolt the axles up with these. Dont worry about washers under the bolts just check them before you go wheeling every time. You wont break these bolts and its easy to remove the axles when they break. Cruiser axles are weak in any case. Once you fix the breaking studs problem they then break the axle off right behind the axle flange. The axles are Induction hardened from factory the induction hardening finishes at the flange and does not include the flange so they break at this point.

I have just fitted a 80series rear diff to my buggy but will be running Custom Chromolly Axles which are splined at both ends and have had custom drive flanges made with 12 7/16th bolt holes. I will be running all 12 7/16th UNF Cap head screws. Hopefully the pinion will hold up

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:16 pm**

RUFF wrote:I wouldnt bother doing the conversion this way. You would be better off drilling the hub out and tap it to 3/8UNF and then throw away the cone washers. Buy some Grade 12 Cap head bolts and bolt the axles up with these. Dont worry about washers under the bolts just check them before you go wheeling every time. You wont break these bolts and its easy to remove the axles when they break. Cruiser axles are weak in any case. Once you fix the breaking studs problem they then break the axle off right behind the axle flange. The axles are Induction hardened from factory the induction hardening finishes at the flange and does not include the flange so they break at this point.

I have just fitted a 80series rear diff to my buggy but will be running Custom Chromolly Axles which are splined at both ends and have had custom drive flanges made with 12 7/16th bolt holes. I will be running all 12 7/16th UNF Cap head screws. Hopefully the pinion will hold up

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:19 pm**

brighty wrote:
joel HJ60 wrote:What is it looking like costing you bright one, the conversion?
* Studs, cone washers, washers & nuts x 12 = $90-$95 (from toyota)
* M10 1.25 fine thread Tap = $35
* Drill bit 11/32 = $8.50 (for drilling larger hole into the hub to be tapped)
* Drill bit 10.5mm = $15 (for drilling clearance hole in axles)
* Cutting fluid = $10

You might want to add onto that....
-rear axle seals
-bearing kit

The only thing that i'm trying to work out now is how to enlarge the tapered axle housing where the cone washers sit into..... Once I work that out, I'll edit this post and add it to it.

I suggest you use a drill press to drill all the holes out.... much easier to keep the holes straight and true.

Just use a die grinder. I forget the name but you can get cheap ones form hardware stores.

Just look for hand held die grinders...Good luck

Posted: **Sat Oct 22, 2005 11:41 pm**

MY45 wrote:
Im glad you think the toy axels are sooo weak compared to your cromo axles....ruff you have lost the essence of your origins. Pffft we dont all have big sponsors to pay for our shit! Go without the conewashers (but they do serve a purpose----Spreading the load when torque is applied...IE you may as well use the cone washers.

So many people have done this mod sucsessfully, give it a go and im sure you will be happy.

Adam

Adam i dont know where this is comming from but it just so happens not everyone in this sport has Sponsors that buy them everything. I have a sponsor that supplies me a set of Tyres a year and a Sponsor that supplies me my Airlockers. The rest i work hard to pay for.

So many people have done this mod succesfully and also for no good reason. The Cone Washers are not needed. They do nothing for the strength and in actuall fact usually are half the problem because they bind up on the stud before the nut is tight. Upgrade the size of the bolts and you will fix the bolts snapping. But the axles are still weak. I watched 3 snap last week on the same obstical. They had only been replaced the day before. No broken Studs. Just broken axles.

And if your going to use a Die Grinder to tapper the holes your wasting time and money. You may as well just drill the axles and fit the nuts with no cone washers. If they are not machined right then the cones will not seat right so die grinding the holes is not going to get the job done.

The most common reason a cruiser snaps the bolts off the end of the axle is because the bolts are either loose(ie-cone washer bound up) to start with or the wheel bearings are loose.

Its replies like yours that stop the guys with knowledgeble suggestions from replying here.

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2005 12:00 am**

If the axles are the next week spot,While the axles are out good idea to do a mar Tack on the spline to save a locker and also why can`t you drill the original cones washers and reuse them or just go with the bolt idea,I can help you out with Taps

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2005 1:39 am**

4340 alloy rear axles are being produced in the US by PolyPerformance. I'm getting a set for an 80 series rear diff next month. These will also have additional holes drilled for extra dowel pins, which IMO carry just as much if not more load than the studs.

Why not add extra dowels to the axle?

Dave

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:53 am**

beanz2 wrote:4340 alloy rear axles are being produced in the US by PolyPerformance. I'm getting a set for an 80 series rear diff next month. These will also have additional holes drilled for extra dowel pins, which IMO carry just as much if not more load than the studs.

Why not add extra dowels to the axle?

Dave

These are allready available in Australia. Although im pretty sure the Polly Performance ones are a one piece shaft just like the factory shaft. The ones im using are double splined with a drive flange. With this set up you also replace the inner wheel bearing seal with a double lip seal and run the wheel bearings in oil rather than grease as you do away with the inner axle seal.

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:07 pm**

RUFF wrote:
These are allready available in Australia. Although im pretty sure the Polly Performance ones are a one piece shaft just like the factory shaft. The ones im using are double splined with a drive flange. With this set up you also replace the inner wheel bearing seal with a double lip seal and run the wheel bearings in oil rather than grease as you do away with the inner axle seal.

(sorry for the thread hijack, Brighty)

That is very interesting, Tony. That is a similar design to what I have in my FJ40. Back in the days when we could not get full floater diffs in the US, I made my own by having an adapter plate made to fit front stub shafts (spindles) to the semi floater diff housing. Then front hubs are used in the rear thus making the diff a full floater unit:

(Note that the rear diff cover is removable, a semi floater feature, LOL)

Indeed my current problem with this set up is the inner axle seal as it is an adapted Dana 44 seal that is very difficult to install. But I had doubts whether the outer axle seal (the one that rides on the body of the wheel hub) would be adequate to seal oil instead of grease that it was intended to do.

Are there double lipped outer axles seals that fit the front of a 40/60/75 series diffs?

Dave

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:18 pm**

beanz2 wrote:
Indeed my current problem with this set up is the inner axle seal as it is an adapted Dana 44 seal that is very difficult to install. But I had doubts whether the outer axle seal (the one that rides on the body of the wheel hub) would be adequate to seal oil instead of grease that it was intended to do.

Are there double lipped outer axles seals that fit the front of a 40/60/75 series diffs?

Dave

To be honost Dave i have not got as far as buying a Double Lip seal. Im just presuming there will be one in a similar size available. I dont mind using a couple of speedy sleeves to make the difference if i have to.

Posted: **Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:38 pm**

as Tony said, but I prefer to use M10x1.25 class 12,9 cap screws, at least it keeps it metric (so if you really wanted to you could screw in a toyota stud) even if they aren't quite as strong as the UNF ones. you will still shear the axle behind the flange long before the bolts break.

the 8mm original studs are very strong strong if they are done up properly, it's quite possible to snap the axle instead of the studs even with the 8mm studs (just ask Carts, he did one ON THE ROAD, UNLOCKED, IN HIGH RANGE a week or so ago!). fresh studs properly installed with straight axles will not fail.

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:00 pm**

RUFF wrote:
MY45 wrote:
Im glad you think the toy axels are sooo weak compared to your cromo axles....ruff you have lost the essence of your origins. Pffft we dont all have big sponsors to pay for our shit! Go without the conewashers (but they do serve a purpose----Spreading the load when torque is applied...IE you may as well use the cone washers.

So many people have done this mod sucsessfully, give it a go and im sure you will be happy.

Adam
Adam i dont know where this is comming from but it just so happens not everyone in this sport has Sponsors that buy them everything. I have a sponsor that supplies me a set of Tyres a year and a Sponsor that supplies me my Airlockers. The rest i work hard to pay for.

So many people have done this mod succesfully and also for no good reason. The Cone Washers are not needed. They do nothing for the strength and in actuall fact usually are half the problem because they bind up on the stud before the nut is tight. Upgrade the size of the bolts and you will fix the bolts snapping. But the axles are still weak. I watched 3 snap last week on the same obstical. They had only been replaced the day before. No broken Studs. Just broken axles.

And if your going to use a Die Grinder to tapper the holes your wasting time and money. You may as well just drill the axles and fit the nuts with no cone washers. If they are not machined right then the cones will not seat right so die grinding the holes is not going to get the job done.

The most common reason a cruiser snaps the bolts off the end of the axle is because the bolts are either loose(ie-cone washer bound up) to start with or the wheel bearings are loose.

Its replies like yours that stop the guys with knowledgeble suggestions from replying here.

Hey man, sorry about that post last night. I think i may of had one to many beers and thought you were saying toy stuff is crap

I know you work hard to pay for your 4x4 and i respect that.

My bad

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:05 pm**

Brighty, i had a similar issue on my 60. After removing the rear axles for a locker installation a couple of years ago, i proceded to snap 2 sets of axel studs off the passenger side rear.

In order to get the cone washers out to remove the axel, it was hit a few too many times, and the tapered section for the cone washers was left out of round.

When it was all bolted back together and tightened up, i thought it was all good. After a week, i noticed all the nuts and studs would become loose, as the axel slowly resumed its old shape. Once i worked out that the studs were coming loose, before they snapped, all that was required was to retighten them every so often. After about a month of checking them, i found that they stopped becoming loose and that all the cone washers had reseated correctly.

About 2 years later, i am driving along on a sydney road, trying to overtake a bus that stopped in front of me, when all of a sudden, my rear passenger axle snaps. It broke as Ruff already explained, right at the drive flange.

Moral to the story, 60 series axles are no match for 35's, safari tough clutch and the most turboist 2h in the world.

Under perfect conditions, an axle should break before the 6 drive studs snap off.

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:35 pm**

MY45 wrote:
Hey man, sorry about that post last night. I think i may of had one to many beers and thought you were saying toy stuff is crap

I know you work hard to pay for your 4x4 and i respect that.

My bad

No worries mate. Your Forgiven

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:09 pm**

carts wrote:Brighty, i had a similar issue on my 60. After removing the rear axles for a locker installation a couple of years ago, i proceded to snap 2 sets of axel studs off the passenger side rear.

In order to get the cone washers out to remove the axel, it was hit a few too many times, and the tapered section for the cone washers was left out of round.

When it was all bolted back together and tightened up, i thought it was all good. After a week, i noticed all the nuts and studs would become loose, as the axel slowly resumed its old shape. Once i worked out that the studs were coming loose, before they snapped, all that was required was to retighten them every so often. After about a month of checking them, i found that they stopped becoming loose and that all the cone washers had reseated correctly.

About 2 years later, i am driving along on a sydney road, trying to overtake a bus that stopped in front of me, when all of a sudden, my rear passenger axle snaps. It broke as Ruff already explained, right at the drive flange.

Moral to the story, 60 series axles are no match for 35's, safari tough clutch and the most turboist 2h in the world.

Under perfect conditions, an axle should break before the 6 drive studs snap off.

i had the same thing happen to me a day before the willowglen chalenge. The car seamed to pull to one side under acceleration. I pulled up at the lights and a guy yells out to me that the axle was hanging out about a foot. Lucky the rear diff is welded

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:56 pm**

RUFF wrote:
MY45 wrote:
Hey man, sorry about that post last night. I think i may of had one to many beers and thought you were saying toy stuff is crap

I know you work hard to pay for your 4x4 and i respect that.

My bad
No worries mate. Your Forgiven

feel the love! Ruff *heart* MY45

Posted: **Mon Oct 24, 2005 11:03 pm**

dumbdunce wrote:
RUFF wrote:
MY45 wrote:
Hey man, sorry about that post last night. I think i may of had one to many beers and thought you were saying toy stuff is crap

I know you work hard to pay for your 4x4 and i respect that.

My bad
No worries mate. Your Forgiven
feel the love! Ruff *heart* MY45

It wasnt only the *heart* i got

Posted: **Fri Apr 13, 2007 8:46 pm**

are 60's axles the same strength as 75 axels pre 90's

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2007 7:42 am**

known 2 wrote:are 60's axles the same strength as 75 axels pre 90's

same diameter, different lengths.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2007 11:14 am**

dumbdunce wrote:
known 2 wrote:are 60's axles the same strength as 75 axels pre 90's
same diameter, different lengths.

Short side is the same, I am pretty sure.

I agree with the above comments, the axle is far weeker than the studs. I broke an axle for the first time in many years of pretty hard off roading. The only reason it broke is because my wheel bearing was rooted. ( as ruff mentioned, wheel bearings are one of the causes).

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2007 2:56 pm**

this all very interesting , as you guys say that u have broken axels on road unllocked and offroad. i have broken 3 hubs with ridgid springs and open diffs but onece i got new suspension and a lsd i havn't broken one yet. cos i have a v8 i like to kick my tial out alot so i would have thought i'd break an axel by now, especialy running 35's.
cos it's shorter woul that make it a bit stronger , les prone to twisting and snaping??

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2007 8:51 pm**

Ruff the true full floater setup sounds good.
What sort of dollars are you looking at ?
I'm going to do the 3/8UNF mod next week, what length are the grade 12 cap head bolts ? ( should I take in a stud & nut to the bolt guys and say match this length) .
I was keen on ordering a set of chromo axles (I run a 75 diff in the rear of my Surf) but I'm liking your full floater idea too.

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:09 pm**

HG I did this mod to my 60 series diffs in my VIT ..... But I used 3/8th UNC and the cap head set screws were 40mm long prob an overkill ....not sure if it was a good idea or not putting such a long bolt into the hub but I have had no dramas thus far ...but Im only punchin 1.6 ponys through em so I should be safe

....I hope .....I have also been told of people running 8mm cap head bolts re-using the cone washers and spring washer and just tie wiring 2 lots of three of the bolts to-gether to stop them coming loose and they have not broken any since in a well know comp rig

Posted: **Sat Apr 14, 2007 9:30 pm**

A1 wrote:HG I did this mod to my 60 series diffs in my VIT ..... But I used 3/8th UNC and the cap head set screws were 40mm long prob an overkill ....not sure if it was a good idea or not putting such a long bolt into the hub but I have had no dramas thus far ...but Im only punchin 1.6 ponys through em so I should be safe ....I hope .....I have also been told of people running 8mm cap head bolts re-using the cone washers and spring washer and just tie wiring 2 lots of three of the bolts to-gether to stop them coming loose and they have not broken any since in a well know comp rig

I converted mine to 3/8UNC also as the UNF bolts tend to gaul the thread easy. I never ended up going with the custom drive flange either as Jeff didnt have the time to get them done. We just got Jeff to heat treat a set of stock drive flanges and these have been fine.

Just remove the stud and measure the depth of the hole. This will tell you how long you need the bolt. Obviously you want it a little shorter than the depth of the hole. Also make sure the bolt is threaded all the way.

My buggy has also been running this set up now since October 2005 and has not had a hub fail at all. But it is still snapping Chromo Axles

I think its up to 3 now

Its got nothing to do with how its been driven though

Im pretty sure Dave Camp(new owner of my buggy) was looking into aaxles from a different company this time around. Although for the average rig the MacNamara axles will cope fine.

Outer Limits 4x4 Board

60 Series axle stud upgrade

60 Series axle stud upgrade

Re: 60 Series axle stud upgrade