Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Ok my question is what happened to the thread discussing the Modified Jeep suspension?
Was it simply removed by the mods or the original author?
I personally was very interested to hear the end result of this - because there is either:

• A company out there that I won't give my future business to because of the conitations/risks remaining (in my mind), or
• Another company out there that does extremely dogdy work that I might get future parts from not knowing better.....

I can appreciate that it might seem like dredging up the "dead" - but IMHO only the guilty are going to benefit as it doesn't flush out the truth.....

I am glad this topic has come up wooders. This issue was resolved, and as the apology shows, FT did not get the links modified by Calbah. He did not say Calbah modified his suspension, but it did insinuate that Calbah did the work.

There was two threads pointing to FT having his suspension modified after it was finished by Calbah. This being known these threads were moved to an archived (Administrator only) section! (I myself do not have access) I personally moved the Calbah thread into the moderator section and it was promptly moved to the (Admnistrator only) section.

I will pull a quote from this:

""FireTruck wrote:
No - Zach's my mate

Thanks for the welcome... FireTruck is almost ready for the trail. Drove her to work today and managed to sit on the freeway for a brief stint at 100kph without the whole rig falling apart.

****** helped me out by lengthening my rear upper control arms so that I could get my rear pinion angle right - seem good so far.

Just got brake lines, bump stops and limiting straps to do then I should be trail ready (ish)."

I personally do not wish to enter the debate between Calbah Industries and FT, but In my opinion FT knew the links were modified after he took the truck from Calbah, and this is the probable cause of the failure. To me it pointed that the failure was in no part due to the fault of Calbah.

Discussing this yesterday it would appear that Calbah builds things like multi-million dollar bridges and so forth. Scrimping on a supension component likely worth in the range of $100 is a very remote possibility, and in my mind most probably did not happen. Calbah seems to be a great company to deal with, and I remember they sponsored TTC and other things, meaning they support our sport. This to me shows commitment from them, I think they would be very worthy of your business Wooders.

Um sorry, but unless I can't read or understand English, in my mind this issue hasn't been resolved (just yet)...its a bit hard to quote threads that have disappeared from this board, so I'll quote from another...

Yes - I know of the arms being extended at 1 section near the end of the arm... I am well aware of this being done. This is NOT the section that broke!!!

That proves nothing in terms of the fact that Calbah was (or indeed wasn't) responsible for the links.

I was not aware that this had been done. Chester – if you saw someone compromising my/your suspension, why did you not tell me? Why would you not inform me that it was your belief that someone was modifying your work in an unsound – and unsafe – manner??? How long have you known about this without letting me know???

In my mind, this is a bloody good point, which definitely should be answered.

In my opinion FT knew the links were modified after he took the truck from Calbah, and this is the probable cause of the failure. To me it pointed that the failure was in no part due to the fault of Calbah.

Sorry, I fail to see how you can come to this conclusion based on what we've all read? The part that broke wasn't the modified part.

I personally do not wish to enter the debate between Calbah Industries and FT

This bit I actually agree with, however I also believe that something as vitally important as a discussion on safety/engineering should be deleted. At the very least if you believe something should be done, lock the thread until the issue is resolved - don't hide it and pretend it never happened.

But then that's just my opinion.

Rob moved the thread to an area not viewable, and myself or Tony would have done the same thing.

That thread was removed because it presentated a very bad case for Calbah that seemed to me to be uncalled for. Now towards the end of the thread it became clear that Fire Truck wasnt revealing the complete truth about the circumstances of the links. The whole thread basicaly turned to crap and the information there wasnt doing anybody any good IMHO. My view was that sombody that was reading the thread for the first time probably wouldnt read the entire thread and with go away without understanding the complete story of what has been described in the thread.

So what we have done is made a decision to removed the thread from general viewing. This decision has not been taken lightly as it brings all sorts of implications as to the motives of the controllers of this board (like censorship issues etc). It would be nice if we would just let anybody post anything that they like but it doesent seem to me that that can really be possible because it is so easy for an indvidual to cause so much harm to a company without just cause.

So who determines what is allowed to be said and what isnt. This is the hard part and is a shame that it has to be done but I guess that person in this case was me.

I just wish that this thread could have been handled differently. If the critical elements of what was posted was all done one after each other then the thread would have worked and got to the bottom of the story in a better fashon (although I guess that the bottom hasnt been found yet)

Im sort of rambling here because Im not really sure of how to explain it any better how I think that something like this should have been handled.

Maybe I should put the thread back out here and just lock it instead or should I have done nothing and left it going. Its just that it seemed with Fire Truck posting the appology thread it seemed like a good time to pull the origional thread.

Rob has posted twice since I started this (he types much faster than I do (and probably thinks faster also)). Now I agree totally in what he has said although for me beleiving that Calbah is innocent of this work wasnt the reason for moving the thread.

The thread was moved because Fire Truck had basically come full circle in his issues with Calbah. First he showed the Calbar links failing.... then he said that he didnt know if Calbar had dont this work ... then he stated that other people had modified the links .. and finally he appologised for making the thread in the first place. It was at this point that we thought it was a good idea to pull the thread.

Now if there are issues that still need to be discussed about the failure of the links then they can still be discussed - just start a thread.

Sam

Yes Ben, I agree. The full story hasnt been finished yet.

You can keep it going here if you want or start another thread. It seems to me that this thread is more to do with why the origional thread was moved.

Sam

Ben we are not hiding or pretending it never happened. Hence my prompt response. We have proof that FT said someone has modifieed my top arms for me and this is why i moved the thread as it was getting cloudy.

I specifically did not delete the thread, because I did not want to be accused of taking sides. I do not stand to benefit from Calbah at all, nor have I ever seen or used thier products. Thats not to say I won't in the future. The point is the thread was getting bad and i shifted it.

FT stated that he doesn't know who did the links on his truck. I am not taking sides based on vehicles region of origin, or anything, other than what I truly believe to be the facts. the links were modified after they left Calbah, and its anyones guess what happened at that time!

I understand that you've got to make the call and indeed don't envy you position - but I also think that perhaps something should have been said beforehand - otherwise you might find people to jump to the wrong conclusions.

Anyway, as I've said, I'm very interested to see how this pans out.

Cheers,

Ben

Ben wrote:Um sorry, but unless I can't read or understand English, in my mind this issue hasn't been resolved (just yet)...its a bit hard to quote threads that have disappeared from this board, so I'll quote from another...

Yes - I know of the arms being extended at 1 section near the end of the arm... I am well aware of this being done. This is NOT the section that broke!!!

That proves nothing in terms of the fact that Calbah was (or indeed wasn't) responsible for the links.

I was not aware that this had been done. Chester – if you saw someone compromising my/your suspension, why did you not tell me? Why would you not inform me that it was your belief that someone was modifying your work in an unsound – and unsafe – manner??? How long have you known about this without letting me know???

In my mind, this is a bloody good point, which definitely should be answered.

In my opinion FT knew the links were modified after he took the truck from Calbah, and this is the probable cause of the failure. To me it pointed that the failure was in no part due to the fault of Calbah.

Sorry, I fail to see how you can come to this conclusion based on what we've all read? The part that broke wasn't the modified part.

I personally do not wish to enter the debate between Calbah Industries and FT

This bit I actually agree with, however I also believe that something as vitally important as a discussion on safety/engineering should be deleted. At the very least if you believe something should be done, lock the thread until the issue is resolved - don't hide it and pretend it never happened.

But then that's just my opinion.

Possibly some of these things should be resolved between Calbah and FT himself, and not on the public bulletin boards??!!

To me the quality of Calbahs work would not be jeopardised over a poorly made axle link, as Chester said they throw out tonnes of steel each year rather than produce a bad product. I have personally never had any dealings with them, but think, about why a big engineering firm would scrimp to save for example $100 worth of material on an axle link when it could only cost them in the end. It is unfeasable!

Wooders wrote:I personally was very interested to hear the end result of this - because there is either:

• A company out there that I won't give my future business to because of the conitations/risks remaining (in my mind), or
• Another company out there that does extremely dogdy work that I might get future parts from not knowing better.....

I can appreciate that it might seem like dredging up the "dead" - but IMHO only the guilty are going to benefit as it doesn't flush out the truth.....

BJ, I do NOT believe the issue is resolved. If Calbah is NOT responsible - then great lets track down whom is - because I as sure as heck do NOT want them working on my rig & I'm sure they probably work on more than Jeeps.....

Now just becuase the thread has been removed it doesn't mean it's resolved, and Although FT appologies for posting what he did - it doesn't help clarify whom IS at fault. Now it doesn't matter how big the enterprise might be - MANY MANY large companies have done some very dodgy work practices - so I don't think just because Calbah might perform larger structural work that the same care is default passed onto a smaller job....infact it's BECAUSE of this sort of thing that audits & tests exist......


So I'm NOT saying that Calbah are responsible - BUT at the end of the day SOMEONE HAS performed a peice of work that LUCKILY did not end with fatal results......And THIS is what I want clarified.....

Ben wrote:I understand that you've got to make the call and indeed don't envy you position - but I also think that perhaps something should have been said beforehand - otherwise you might find people to jump to the wrong conclusions.

Anyway, as I've said, I'm very interested to see how this pans out.

Cheers,

Ben

I was almost going to start a thread on its removal but thought it pointless to beat a dead horse. The argument should be between FT and Calbah. Although FT said that Calbah did not do the work so in my mind this cleared Calbah of any wrong doing. NO?

As I posted this morning in the other thread.
I had a long talk with Chester, IMO Calbah did not splice that link.

And i doubt that the full story will come out on here.

Michael.

Wooders wrote:

Wooders wrote:I personally was very interested to hear the end result of this - because there is either:

• A company out there that I won't give my future business to because of the conitations/risks remaining (in my mind), or
• Another company out there that does extremely dogdy work that I might get future parts from not knowing better.....

I can appreciate that it might seem like dredging up the "dead" - but IMHO only the guilty are going to benefit as it doesn't flush out the truth.....

BJ, I do NOT believe the issue is resolved. If Calbah is NOT responsible - then great lets track down whom is - because I as sure as heck do NOT want them working on my rig & I'm sure they probably work on more than Jeeps.....

Now just becuase the thread has been removed it doesn't mean it's resolved, and Although FT appologies for posting what he did - it doesn't help clarify whom IS at fault. Now it doesn't matter how big the enterprise might be - MANY MANY large companies have done some very dodgy work practices - so I don't think just because Calbah might perform larger structural work that the same care is default passed onto a smaller job....infact it's BECAUSE of this sort of thing that audits & tests exist......


So I'm NOT saying that Calbah are responsible - BUT at the end of the day SOMEONE HAS performed a peice of work that LUCKILY did not end with fatal results......And THIS is what I want clarified.....

I have seen a rig with a properly designed four link completely destroy a link and this did not affect the rig at all, in fact the guy did not notice until looking at it later that a rock had broken his links (local guy, who built his own suspension) So a properly designed four link can be limped home with minimal problems. Think about if YOU a backyarder were to build your own suspension, would YOU do that soret of work? NO, therefore why would anyone with a reputation to stake on it do that? In my opinion it is unfeasable!

Ben wrote:I understand that you've got to make the call and indeed don't envy you position - but I also think that perhaps something should have been said beforehand - otherwise you might find people to jump to the wrong conclusions.

Anyway, as I've said, I'm very interested to see how this pans out.

Cheers,

Ben

Yes I agree. We could have handled it differently. I probably should just have just locked the origional thread but I dont think that having that thread left there was a good thing. The first half of the thread was fairly damaging for Calbah and the second half showed that this was uncalled for.

If Fire Truck posted all his information in his first post then the direction of the thread would have been more true to what actually may have happened.

Fire Truck delibrately chose to not post all his information and I think that this was not a very nice thing to do because it described a very one sided view on the situation and it was the digging by others that brought the extra information to light. I guess this is the main reason why the decision was made to remove the thread - because Fire Truck delibrately chose not to present all the facts of the failure.

Sam

Sam & BJ - re the removal of the thread - I have no beef with that - certainly if it was unfairly biased against an innocent party etc....

BJ

I have seen a rig with a properly designed four link completely destroy a link and this did not affect the rig at all, in fact the guy did not notice until looking at it later that a rock had broken his links (local guy, who built his own suspension) So a properly designed four link can be limped home with minimal problems. Think about if YOU a backyarder were to build your own suspension, would YOU do that soret of work? NO, therefore why would anyone with a reputation to stake on it do that? In my opinion it is unfeasable!

I have seen a suspension link fail before too also luckily with no dire result - but imagine if a link failed at 100km/h, and say dropped into the ground, and say either physically pushed the rig or startled the driver into say oncoming traffic etc.....just a wild speculation - but there is a wide range of possibilities that occur when you talk failure at speed.....
As for it being unfeasible - well SOMEONE had to preform the work right????and THAT's what I'd like to know....

Wooders,

Agreed. I wouldnt want a link to fail either. In a triangulated 4 link if any link fails its going to let the axle move a long way.

In a 5 link (4 parallel and a panhard) if one of the 4 parallel links lets go it may still drive OK cause one of the links is redundent and you really only need 3 parallel links and a panhard to hold an axle.

Sam

Sorry to keep going on about it but...

BJ wrote...

Although FT said that Calbah did not do the work so in my mind this cleared Calbah of any wrong doing. NO?

Where are you reading this? From what I've read, FT's said he doesn't know who modified the part that broke??? He hasn't said Calbah did it, and he hasn't said they didn't - or have I missed something?

As Wooder's said - someone did it, and we should find out who.

I think the people responsilbe for this work should be named provided that the proof is 100%.

It appears that the jeep has been in a few workshops for modifications as well as a backyard or 2.

If for no other reason so as no one else winds up with similar situations.

Peoples safty is put at risk with this sort of work being done.

Michael.

I don't mind that the tread was yanked - it certainly was getting out of hand, and that was not my intention.

Yes, I purposely posted very few details to avoid things getting complicated... in retrospect, the exact opposite thing happened.

My bad - I appologise once again to you all.

Just one more time - I do not know who did this particular work. I know who did some other work on the control arms, but not this work that failed. I called them control arms made by that particular company because I thought that's what they were.

I have contacted that same company, but have no response as of yet.

To clear things up a little, I also contacted that company at least 41 times by e-mail over the period my Jeep was there, and I don't know how many phone calls and personal visits. In response I got 8 e-mails back - most of which simply saying 'call me for details'.

I have a very short list, and hope to find out before long who my issue is with.

Unfortunatey, I can pretty much guarantee that I won't be posting the results when I get it sorted out - it's just not worth it.

Wooders, in my mind link failure would be a bad thing to happen, I have seena truck snap a tailshaft and roll over, also rolling the trailer over that it was towing. This was within the company I work for. As for Calbah, I have seen sufficient evidence that they did not perform that work. They know who did, and FT knows who did. The evidence was posted on here for quite some time!

bj on roids wrote:Wooders, in my mind link failure would be a bad thing to happen, I have seena truck snap a tailshaft and roll over, also rolling the trailer over that it was towing. This was within the company I work for. As for Calbah, I have seen sufficient evidence that they did not perform that work. They know who did, and FT knows who did. The evidence was posted on here for quite some time!

BJ - Fire Truck is also saying that he believes that this work (that was posted on here some time ago) has not caused the failure. I can also believe this possibility because again Fire Truck has not posted all his known information.

For me this is the biggest problem with Fire Trucks thread. He posted it and knowingly withheld information to make it look like Calbah was at fault.

Sam

What a crap storm.

First up, I know FT personally and have done for a number of years. In my opinion he is a stand-up guy.

Three seperate companies have worked on his jeep over the last year.

Company 1 developed the suspension.
Company 2 worked on other parts of the vehicle.
Company 3 lengthened some links.

It appears that the break in the control arm link was nowhere near the lengthening of the links as done by Company 3. Company 2 should not have needed to touch the links.

My conclusion is that FT has assumed that the work of Company 1 must therefore be responsible. I do not believe that he deliberately left information out to mislead us - what a load of crap.

We (the members of this board) will never know who was responsible. With legal proceedings now threatened, any chance of a technical discussion about the cause for this is gone.

I have my own personal views about the quality of what I have seen with my own eyes and someplace sometime over a camp fire I'd be happy to relay those.

I agree with Wooders though. The scary thing is that someone did do it (Companies 1 to 3). Knowing who would be nice, but the truth is that we will never know.

Rod

Wish I'd seen the original thread but from what I can gather so far
company #1 made and fitted a link x long,company #2 didnt touch it
Company #3 made the same link longer .
taking responsibility for the whole link saying that this link will stand up
to the extra pressure of being longer (more stress)so when this link fails
Company #1 has no liability as it made the link x long and it will stand up to the stress at this length
Company #3 should have made a new link bigger or strenghthened
it acordingly to take the extra stress.

So who's company #3 (Lady's and gentlemen of the jury)

HSV Rangie wrote:I think the people responsilbe for this work should be named provided that the proof is 100%.

It appears that the jeep has been in a few workshops for modifications as well as a backyard or 2.

If for no other reason so as no one else winds up with similar situations.

Peoples safty is put at risk with this sort of work being done.

Michael.

If we knew 100% who did this I would post it up but we dont so im not going to point the finger anywhere.

We all Know who Company#1 is and some people here would know who Company#3 is.
Company#3 also know who they are. Its up to them to post here if they beleive they are not accountable for this fault and feel the need to tell their side of this story.(yes they read this forum)

For those of you who know who "company #3" is, and for those who care, I do not believe that "company #3" is responsible in any way...

I knew exactly what "company #3" was doing - that particular work was cleared by me before it began. I knew what they were doing and how they were doing it. Please don't drag them into this.

It is the work that I did not know about that is in question... I am trying to sort that out out away from the BB.

Sorry FT butt "I agree" I could have worded my last post to single out
any of the 3 companys in question.
If you dont know who did the work why did you put it on a BB

If you do a good job for someone they will tell someone else
If you do a Sh-it job they will tell ten people
But to put it on a BB and you don't know who did it Fuuuuuuuuuuuk!!!!!!!!!
I vote this thread be locked off here before any more damage
is done to any company.

Just to throw some more into the pot - I find it very hard to believe anything that Fire Truck is posting. For all I know he probably cut the arms himself and welded the things back together. IMO he is delibrately trying to cause people harm.

This is what Fire Truck posted in response to Calbars statement on the subject. (I got the quote from the Jeep site)

Fire Truck posted: Sat Jul 19, 2003 5:05 pm

I have checked all my posts, and I can not find any instance of me saying that I saw you do this work, nor that I think you are responsible. I am not sure what it is that I am supposed to apologize for?? Am I missing something? I have simply shown what happened to my Jeep when I was on the trail... I did mention that I currently have your prototype suspension kit under my Jeep, and it was one of the arms from that kit that broke. I am not aware of any modifications done to the arm after leaving your shop.

OK read that last bit again

I am not aware of any modifications done to the arm after leaving your shop.

When he says your shop he is talking about Calbah.

This is an absolute lie because he is now saying that Company 3 did work on the arms after it left Company 1 (ie Calbah)

Like I say Fire Truck could have done the mods himself.

Sam

Does anyone have a URL for Company 3, Google doesnt have it. I'd like to get my XXXX worked on.

Who cares who made what, the thing to learn here is when radical mods are made things can go wrong. Especially when multiple mods are made. It does not matter who makes them, sometimes stuff just fails.

Motorsport is a perfect example, top teams, with top egineers, with million dollar budgets have cr@p happen.

Wooders, it does not mean just because company X made something for customer Y that you would have the same problem if you went to that company for similar sort of work.

I have had many mods done by many people -- some I would never go back to, but others love them and have not had a problem! There is no ideal world. Trying to pin blame does nothing.

The trouble with posting is it lacks context - just like snippets of a conversation - so hey lets chill out a bit.

FT appologised - fair enough.

Matt N - sage words.

Isn't it wierd how we all like a bargain and are happy to take a lower price? remember the space shuttle is built by the lowest cost tenderer