Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Just after a few ideas on who in Brisbane resets springs.

Cheers

Mark.

Bayside Springs & Blacksmithing

295 Redland Bay Rd Capalaba QLD 4157
ph: (07) 3824 5595 Spring W'salers & Mfrs

nice guys good prices

superior engineering

save your money and buy a decent suspension or otherwise you will be back in 6 months asking the same question

plowy wrote:save your money and buy a decent suspension or otherwise you will be back in 6 months asking the same question

If the leaves are in good condition and they temper them after resetting, then there is nothing wrong with a reset, and they should last about as long as new springs before sagging.

I redesigned my spring packs about 7 years ago now, and got them reset by bayside springs. The first pair I did had done sagged fairly quickly because they didn't temper them. I then got all 4 packs reset and tempered by bayside springs in 1999 and they have lasted fine ever since.

Getting springs reset is A LOT cheaper than buying new ones.

what if the current springs are soft and a little bit sagged

cheers
elliot

Cross your fingers that it gets done right the 1st time otherwise it could cost you more than a new set and then there is the stress.

runnin4life wrote:what if the current springs are soft and a little bit sagged

cheers
elliot

If by "soft" you mean the spring rate is not stiff enough, then NO - resetting will not help. All resetting does is return your springs to the correct free-camber, which will give the car the right ride height. If the springs are not stiff enough you need to buy new ones.

4WD Stuff wrote:Cross your fingers that it gets done right the 1st time otherwise it could cost you more than a new set and then there is the stress.

What a load of crap - if the spring place doesn't get it right first time you go back and get them to reset them again.

But since you sell new springs I am not surprised you are biased.

I have had 7 years of hard 4x4ing on my reset springs. The leaves in my rear springs were made in 1968!!!

cheers for the replies, i wasn't asking everyones opinions on resetting springs, just where to get it done.

4WD Stuff wrote:Cross your fingers that it gets done right the 1st time otherwise it could cost you more than a new set and then there is the stress.

What a load of crap - if the spring place doesn't get it right first time you go back and get them to reset them again.

I had my springs reset 4" down to 3" these springs were not sagged I just wanted a lower ride hieght. Within a week it was sagged off to one side by 2", went back 3 times for the same problem. Ended up resetting them myself, 8 months later it is still within 2mm of being level. 4wd stuff was ref to this ..

Wouldn't recommend doing yourself unless you understand what your doing.
Save yourself a lot of hassil buy new..

ISUZUROVER
I was refering to Mavdogs experience which may not be the usual.
I am not into 4WD STUFF for the money so I promise you I am not biased. Leaf springs are more hassle then they are worth to freight anyway.

But the Jury is still out, what does everyone else think????

Anyway going by what you have said it obviously depends on who does the work and if they do it properly. How much does it cost to temper the springs as you said?
Who does do it correctly

regards
Shane

my thoughts,

dosn't the process of retempering remove any built up stresses / strains in the springs? If so, they should be as good - if not better than new. Especially with 20+ year old springs, as they did no have the furness technology they use now. ( or do these spring mobs still use blacksmith forge's and quench 'em in whale oil for tempering ?)

4WD Stuff wrote: Anyway going by what you have said it obviously depends on who does the work and if they do it properly. How much does it cost to temper the springs as you said?
Who does do it correctly

It didn't cost me any extra to get the springs tempered - I think the resetting and tempering was $60-80 per pair of springs. It is not very complex, after resetting, they bolt the pack back together, heat them up and then let them cool down slowly.

Bayside springs do good work, but can be a bit rough at times. They have good prices though, and I would go back there again. If you have a problem they will sort it out. If you get work done there make sure you ask for the springs to be tempered. They didn't do it to the first set I had done there.

I also allowed for 5-10% settling when I got them reset (from the original free camber) - so if I wanted 10" free camber I got them reset to about 11"

Mavdog, your problem sounds pretty strange... but I suppose flattening springs isn't a very common thing to do, so the spring works probably didnt have much experience with it.

ISUZUROVER wrote:

4WD Stuff wrote: Anyway going by what you have said it obviously depends on who does the work and if they do it properly. How much does it cost to temper the springs as you said?
Who does do it correctly

It didn't cost me any extra to get the springs tempered - I think the resetting and tempering was $60-80 per pair of springs. It is not very complex, after resetting, they bolt the pack back together, heat them up and then let them cool down slowly.

Bayside springs do good work, but can be a bit rough at times. They have good prices though, and I would go back there again. If you have a problem they will sort it out. If you get work done there make sure you ask for the springs to be tempered. They didn't do it to the first set I had done there.

I also allowed for 5-10% settling when I got them reset (from the original free camber) - so if I wanted 10" free camber I got them reset to about 11"

Mavdog, your problem sounds pretty strange... but I suppose flattening springs isn't a very common thing to do, so the spring works probably didnt have much experience with it.

we have had good luck with tempered resets by a local blacksmith in vic, great work, and open to some interesting setups.

as for the flattning springs, wouldn't the 2wd guys with utes, or old falcons/ kingswoods want their springs flattened for lowering? so the spring guys should know their stuff

bad_religion_au wrote: we have had good luck with tempered resets by a local blacksmith in vic, great work, and open to some interesting setups.

as for the flattning springs, wouldn't the 2wd guys with utes, or old falcons/ kingswoods want their springs flattened for lowering? so the spring guys should know their stuff

Very good point!!

ISUZUROVER wrote:

runnin4life wrote:what if the current springs are soft and a little bit sagged

cheers
elliot

If by "soft" you mean the spring rate is not stiff enough, then NO - resetting will not help. All resetting does is return your springs to the correct free-camber, which will give the car the right ride height. If the springs are not stiff enough you need to buy new ones.

im not sure to get this right
my springs still hold the vehicle up and all but there is a little bit of body roll a bit more than what i come to expect as normal and the ride ok its pretty good for leaf maybe it means the leafs are getting soft

the only problem im having is finding lifted springs for my vehicle

so i was thinking reset springs but i dont wana get reset some shitty springs that are gunna last me 6 months to find i need new springs any way

can i get a set of lifted spring made from scratch by using the old springs as an original if they are say to fuked to reset

cheers
elliot

mavdog wrote:

bad_religion_au wrote: we have had good luck with tempered resets by a local blacksmith in vic, great work, and open to some interesting setups.

as for the flattning springs, wouldn't the 2wd guys with utes, or old falcons/ kingswoods want their springs flattened for lowering? so the spring guys should know their stuff

Very good point!!

Yes that is a good point. From a materials/engineering perspective, there should be no reason you can't lower a set of springs and get them to stay the same height. It is possible that in mavdog's case that they weren't tempered after resetting, or the individual leaves weren't reset with the correct progressive free-camber (each leaf as you go down the pack has more camber than the last).

runnin4life wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:

runnin4life wrote:what if the current springs are soft and a little bit sagged

cheers
elliot

If by "soft" you mean the spring rate is not stiff enough, then NO - resetting will not help. All resetting does is return your springs to the correct free-camber, which will give the car the right ride height. If the springs are not stiff enough you need to buy new ones.

im not sure to get this right
my springs still hold the vehicle up and all but there is a little bit of body roll a bit more than what i come to expect as normal and the ride ok its pretty good for leaf maybe it means the leafs are getting soft

the only problem im having is finding lifted springs for my vehicle

so i was thinking reset springs but i dont wana get reset some shitty springs that are gunna last me 6 months to find i need new springs any way

can i get a set of lifted spring made from scratch by using the old springs as an original if they are say to fuked to reset

cheers
elliot

a decent blacksmith'll make you up a set of springs to suit your hearts desire, same dude you should talk to about resetting the springs

runnin4life wrote:
the only problem im having is finding lifted springs for my vehicle

so i was thinking reset springs but i dont wana get reset some shitty springs that are gunna last me 6 months to find i need new springs any way

can i get a set of lifted spring made from scratch by using the old springs as an original if they are say to fuked to reset

cheers
elliot

If you can't find lifted springs, then there if no reason a spring works can't make you some one-off springs. Either using all new leaves or based on your current springs. They can also tell you what sort of condition the leaves/steel are in.

Remember that stiffer springs will mean less wheel travel, and lifting the truck will mean even more body roll.

runnin4life wrote:

ISUZUROVER wrote:

runnin4life wrote:what if the current springs are soft and a little bit sagged

cheers
elliot

If by "soft" you mean the spring rate is not stiff enough, then NO - resetting will not help. All resetting does is return your springs to the correct free-camber, which will give the car the right ride height. If the springs are not stiff enough you need to buy new ones.

im not sure to get this right
my springs still hold the vehicle up and all but there is a little bit of body roll a bit more than what i come to expect as normal and the ride ok its pretty good for leaf maybe it means the leafs are getting soft

the only problem im having is finding lifted springs for my vehicle

so i was thinking reset springs but i dont wana get reset some shitty springs that are gunna last me 6 months to find i need new springs any way

can i get a set of lifted spring made from scratch by using the old springs as an original if they are say to fuked to reset

cheers
elliot

hey dude, your in sydney ay? Ring liverpool springs (in liverpool), they did mine and i'm pretty sure they can do custom jobbys - where the cheapest i found.

thanks guys ive herd what i need to hear lol
i know they will be rock hard if i get new springs and i want the lift for taller tyres

and more travel hope fully but probally wont

just need to get it off the ground

cheers
elliot

runnin4life wrote:thanks guys ive herd what i need to hear lol
i know they will be rock hard if i get new springs and i want the lift for taller tyres

and more travel hope fully but probally wont

just need to get it off the ground

cheers
elliot

just remember, if bigger tires hit the body now, then with the lift they'll still hit the body at full suspension compression.

yep i dont have a problem of it hitting the body its it hitting the chassis on full lock which isnt to big a problem as ive learnt not to pull on the wheel so hard



would in theory lifted springs only give you more drop as you springs will still only go so far up and then hit the bump stops right

runnin4life wrote:yep i dont have a problem of it hitting the body its it hitting the chassis on full lock which isnt to big a problem as ive learnt not to pull on the wheel so hard



would in theory lifted springs only give you more drop as you springs will still only go so far up and then hit the bump stops right

remove swaybar, gives u alot more up travel (and down too i spose)

which one is the sway bar the one that goes from chassis to diff or one of the other ones lol

i never fully learnt all the terms

i know what they do just duno the names lol

runnin4life wrote:which one is the sway bar the one that goes from chassis to diff or one of the other ones lol

i never fully learnt all the terms

i know what they do just duno the names lol

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... sc&start=0

Swaybar goes from leaf spring to chassis(crossmember) and back to leaf spring on other side, i had no idea a few days ago either, that thread's got all the info you'd need

chassis to diff is panhard i think

runnin4life wrote:yep i dont have a problem of it hitting the body its it hitting the chassis on full lock which isnt to big a problem as ive learnt not to pull on the wheel so hard



would in theory lifted springs only give you more drop as you springs will still only go so far up and then hit the bump stops right

If you lift the springs but don't change the shocks, that will limit your down-travel.

When the axle is articulating, the spring on the side travelling down will be forced into more of an arch (than if you lifted the whole axle off the ground) because of the force from the wheel on the other side being pushed up.

In most leaf-spring suspensions, the limiting factors for wheel travel seem to be the length of the springs (longer is better), and the ability of the bushes to flex (after you run out of bush flex, the whole spring pack has to twist along its length, and acts a bit like a torsion bar as well as a spring.

The leaf-spring setups I have seen with the best wheel travel, have springs which are close to flat at ride height.

runnin4life wrote:which one is the sway bar the one that goes from chassis to diff or one of the other ones lol

i never fully learnt all the terms

i know what they do just duno the names lol

Removing the sway bar will give you even more body roll - and you were already complaining about that!

A leaf-spring suspension shouldn't need/have a panhard.

ISUZUROVER wrote: If you can't find lifted springs, then there if no reason a spring works can't make you some one-off springs. Either using all new leaves or based on your current springs. They can also tell you what sort of condition the leaves/steel are in.

New main spring costs around $110 per side I think from memory.

I can't see the point in spending $1000+ for new aftermarket leaves when they are the same steel as factory. Obviously the aftermarket kits have done their R and D, but any leaf pack is a compromise between flex/ sag resistance/ ride quality. If you have time on your hands, then go to the wreckers or dump and get a few leaf packs/ reset/ make your own packs with the different thickness leaves. This is the best thing about leaves- they are so simple. You can't fiddle with coil trucks like that.

As ISUZUROVER said, flat leaf packs will give best ride and flex but only if the shackle is laid back steeply (tho not so far that it inverts) because on droop the shackle has a nice long arc to travel thru. The factory setup uses the shackles near verticle- this gives good sag resistance (and reduced warranty claims) because the leaf is hardly allowed to flex!

The downside is that the leaf is under more stress and will sag quicker. You can use thicker/ harder leaves that will hold their set longer but flex a little less. For example Ford Explorer springs have very hard steel (they don't even run military wrap) compared to std lux.

When making up a spring pack, I have used this with good results: Main and military and 3rd leaf are thinner than bottom 3 leaves, with no super thick load leafs. The leafs should get progressively shorter from top down- ie dont pack 3 leafs eactly the same length on top of each other (you might as well use a bit of RSJ instead).

There are lots of other tricks like tapering the spring ends, *loosen* (not remove) the wraps around the springs, fiddle with rubber bushes, etc etc. that I have not much clue about but plan to find out one day.

My 99c worth.

slosh wrote: New main spring costs around $110 per side I think from memory.

I have had quotes as low as $200 per corner to make one-off spring packs. That was about 8 years ago though.

If anyone is interested in modifying springs, this thread has some pictures of the springs I made up.

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=37883

The first 2 pictures are my first rear spring design - in the second pic you can see the original springs (that my new springs were based on) in the background - notice the difference in the droop of the springs (both springs are at full droop, and the old spring has half the axle weight on it).

This initial design sagged after a while because the 1st stage was stightly too low in rate, and they were not tempered after resetting. I moved one of the 2nd stage leaves to the first stage, and had them reset again AND TEMPERED this time (by Bayside Springs). And before anyone says anything - the inner clamps are far too long, and were cut down.

If you have some background in engineering, or you know what an equation is and can work out how to use one, I reccommend the leaf spring design manual - published by the Society of Automotive engineers. It tells you how to design leaf springs properly, and you can calculate the spring rate you need/want (or the spring rate you have already), and also the free camber your springs should be reset to.

One last point - I found it was necessary to add about 10% to the calculated free camber - to allow for some slight settling after installation. This happened within the first week or two.

And for those arguing that resetting is only a stopgap. The springs on the rear of my truck in the pictures were made in 1968 (or even earlier), and were used and abused by the military, before being redesigned and reset by me. Since the reset, they have kept the same ride height for 7 years of 4x4ing, and worked perfectly. I wish I could say the same for the new (aftermarket) springs I fitted to the front.

When making up a spring pack, I have used this with good results: Main and military and 3rd leaf are thinner than bottom 3 leaves, with no super thick load leafs.

These are generally good rules of thumb - but not all spring packs are the same, some springs use the same thickness leaves all the way down through the pack.

[/quote]The leafs should get progressively shorter from top down- ie dont pack 3 leafs eactly the same length on top of each other (you might as well use a bit of RSJ instead).[/quote]

Decreasing the leaf length is good design practice, but does not change the spring rate (much). 3 leaves of equal length will have almost the same rate as 3 leaves of decresingly smaller length. It won't be like an RSJ as you suggest.

There are lots of other tricks like tapering the spring ends, *loosen* (not remove) the wraps around the springs, fiddle with rubber bushes, etc etc. that I have not much clue about but plan to find out one day.

Tapering springs, decreasing the length of each lower leaf, etc, etc, will all serve to reduce the "stiffness factor" of the spring. This is a "fudge factor" that the theoretical spring rate is multiplied to agree with measured spring rates.

e.g.
properly designed springs with correctly staggered lengths and tapered ends have a stiffness factor of 1.1 (10% higher than the theoretical rate)
Springs with square ends 1.15-1.2
Springs will all the leaves the same length 1.25-1.3