Outer Limits 4x4 Board

g'day all

i've been reading the forums here for information regarding an engine conversion on ferozas, and have so far found lots of information that's been helpful in steering me towards where i think i should go, should i go ahead with a project like this.

from what i've read - the Detomaso HD-EG seems to be a fairly affordable and perhaps not as intense solution to the problem, as opposed to a V6 with new drive train, suspension etc - particularly if as murcod was suggesting in another post it bolts straight in.

the reason i've posted this topic is to ask for advice from anyone who feels like giving it. my knowledge of mechanics is very basic, and as such, i'd be enlisting the help of a few mechanic friends from work to do the actual installation itself, with me helping where possible. what i'm hoping is that with your help, i'll be better informed and somewhat knowledgable on the process so when i approach them with the project, i should be able to give them a fair bit of info as to what will actually be required to do the conversion successfully.

so to those people who know a little about this engine, or even doing a conversion on a feroza, what information or advice are you willing to give me on swapping out my stock engine and replacing it with a detomaso engine? what sort of modifications need to be done to the engine bay, and will there be modifications required to the gearbox/drivechain etc? i'm hoping that the standard gearbox will be capable of the extra power and will not need replacing.

thanks in advance for any replies, advice or information from forum members, and i look forward to hearing from you.

mark

i think detomaso too hard to get and too expensive... get an applause engine cheap, torque cam, exhaust, extractors, maybe computer... that should give similar performance to the detomaso 1.6 motor.

I have a Y90 feroza - it still has a carburator. Can i replace my F300 HD-C engine vith aplause HDE? I would like to keep the carburator - can i replace injection vith carb?

nebivedu wrote:I have a Y90 feroza - it still has a carburator. Can i replace my F300 HD-C engine vith aplause HDE? I would like to keep the carburator - can i replace injection vith carb?

You can. You should just need to swap the inlet manifold and exhaust manifold over from your current engine. Possibly the distributor advance curve could be different and the cams- but it should still run fine.

Hi Mark, first thing to check would be the bolt pattern for the gearbox to make sure it will bolt up. Apparently there are a couple (2?) different patterns.

The Detomaso (from all my research) is just a HD-E/HD-C block with different EFI, camshaft, distributor, and inlet/ exhaust manifold (extractors standard- but they wouldn't fit being a FWD engine). The cam and different EFI system (with proper computer controlled ignition timing) are what gives the biggest power gain IMHO.

So, basically you need to get the entire engine with the loom, distributor and EFI computer. Alternatively, you can buy the cam from Ivan Tighe Cams, modify your distributor to full computer control (easy), then fit aftermarket injection and extractors. You'd then have to pay for tuning, but should end up with a similar gain (actually better with a custom tune provide you get a smart programmer.)

It's a conversion I'd like to do, keep us posted!

i've made some enquiries and am able to get a front half-cut with engine etc for under $2000, which although seems exxy, gives me the entire front half of the vehicle - so engine, computer - the lot. for my own peace of mind, this seems like a fair price for a relatively simple conversion as opposed to my original idea of a commo V6, new diffs, axles, drivetrain, gearbox, shocks, etc etc etc etc.

sorry if this seems like a silly question, but if installation is pretty much straight-forward, what else is required ie computer etc? is it simply a matter (and pardon the simplistic terminology) of attaching all the parts, hooking up the electrics and away she goes?

regarding the extractors, i'm guessing my best bet would also be to get aftermarket ones installed? could be an opportunity to get a whole new exhaust system installed...

thanks so far murcod for the info - this might not get off the ground for a few months, but i think i'll be cancelling my trip to the USA until next year and getting this done some time by the middle of the year

Just my 2c worth.

Don't know of anybody that's done the De Tomaso swap, but we'd all love to see how it goes. Just be aware though that the Feroza gearbox won't handle too much grunt. FURTHER, I believe the De Tomaso donk delivers max torque too high in the rev range to be any good off road.

A better bet might be to install an Applause motor, extractors and +/- 2 inch system. Getting hold of the ring and pinion gears from an auto Feroza will help gear it down a bit as well = better take off from the lights and better low range.

I've done the Applause swap and I'm quite happy with performance on 30" tyres, especially for a 4wd. I've owned some seriously quick cars in the past, and still get to occasionally drive some nice things on the job, most of which the Feroza can keep up with in traffic coz I can see what's happening ahead.

As far as highway driving goes, people that simply rely on grunt to overtake are creating danger for themselves and others. Learning to drive properly in a manner which allows you to keep a good average speed will do MUCH more for your trip times than an extra 10 or 20 kW.

Not sure where you are, but you should be able to pick up an Applause motor for around $700 to $900. For ease of the conversion, I left the Applause inlet manifold, injectors and dizzy on.

Actually AJ, IIRC the Feroza's torque curve is more suited to offroad work (torque at low revs) BUT the Detomaso actually has more torque than the Feroza at the Feroza's peak torque point. Hopefully that makes sense?

Basically although the Detomaso torque peaks higher in the rev range, it will still have more torque than the Feroza engine at the revs the Feroza peaks at. This is all from memory.

ianrossrosco wrote: sorry if this seems like a silly question, but if installation is pretty much straight-forward, what else is required ie computer etc? is it simply a matter (and pardon the simplistic terminology) of attaching all the parts, hooking up the electrics and away she goes?

regarding the extractors, i'm guessing my best bet would also be to get aftermarket ones installed? could be an opportunity to get a whole new exhaust system installed...

Basically rip out the old engine and loom / ECU in total. You'll then have to graft one loom out of two- or possibly you might be lucky and be able to use the Detomaso loom in total? You will most likely have to do a fair bit of electrical work with separating wires from looms and cutting joining etc It all depends on if the Feroza EFI loom incorporates stuff like the aircon and accessory wiring in the same bunch of wires as to how hard it would be.

I've done a similar conversion on a Charade before (engine was a much later model out of a different body shape) and was amazed at how easy it was to do. I was also going from carby to EFI which complicated the matter.

The Feroza engine mounts should bolt straight onto the block no probs.

If you can, would you be able to post some pics of a Detomaso engine? Particularly the distributor set up and bellhousing area. A wrecker near me had one advertised a while back, but when I asked to look at it they didn't know where it was because the boss was away.

As far as the gearbox goes, personally I wouldn't be too concerned about breaking anything. The replacement engine isn't a huge jump in torque and being NA it won't suddenly kick in. Most people who break the gearboxes are running high torque turbo conversions (and most likely slam change gears!) It's torque that will kill a gearbox.

Aftermarket extractors would be the go- something like Hurricanes or one of the other brands people recommend on here. Steer clear of MRT and you should be right (due to reported poor welding issues- if you had a MRT dealer near you and could inspect them before paying $$$ they would be worth a look)

from what i remember from my days at bbs.daihard.org the detmoaso computer is very very very similar to the 1.3 HC-E computer.

Based on that... applause engine, cam, extractors and a hc-e computer.. and you have a detomaso engine, or pretty damn close to it. I think it has different injectors too, not sure.

just out of curiosity... whats wrong with the engine you have? or are you somply chasing more power?

nothing wrong with my current engine Tzi, it's as stock as they come, only done a tad over 100,000km, running well (maybe burning fuel a bit fast - that's another issue).

yeah, after a bit more grunt, more zip and i guess it's also the fact that there's nothing really stopping me from doing it either. (make sense??)

also helps me gain more knowledge about my car as well....

Some imfo I know about the detom motor.

The inlet and throttle body on the detom engine actualy faces the firewall where the feroza faces the radiator. You would need to see how much clearance there is between the throttle body and firewall.

The feroza has max torque of 128nm @ 4800rpm and from memory the detom engine has 141nm @ 4000rpm.


I was considering doing the detom conversion to my feroza awhile ago and after speaking to mechanic fgriends of mine they said for the money and the power gain it's not worth it.



just my 2 cents woeth

The inlet manifold problem is an easy one- use the Feroza one and see if the Detomaso throttle body can be adapted onto it (at worse use the Feroza throttle body too.) Alternatively, get the Detomaso manifold modded and swap the end the tb is on, it's a common mod.

Interesting where the torque peak is for the Feroza-> 4800RPM seems very high compard to how mine drives?

Peak torque is PEAK torque though. You'd need to see what the torque CURVE is like before making a decision.

It's easy to get a shitload in a narrow, unusbale for 4wding, band. The trick is to have a nice wide curve with reasonable amounts of torque down low in the rev range.

Do a search on the "blackbox" for further info.

My feroza has 126Nm at 3500RPM.

The feroza without the black induction box, has peak torque at 4800rpm, which isn't very usable 4wding. The black box brings it down to 3500rpm, and gives a slightly wider torque curve between 3000 and 4000rpm, a bit better for 4wding.

I don't know how different the Detomaso intake is, but if you put on the Feroza intake then you might loose some of the power from the engine, making a conversion less viable.

I suggest investigating the power curve in the Detomaso if possible.

There is a link I just found:
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/A_2644/article.html

With a graph of the power too.

Yes, mines got the black box and 3500rpm sounds more like it. Mine certainly doesn't feel as though it peaks at 4800RPM.

Yes, there would be a possible loss using the Feroza manifold and the best way would be to modify the Detomaso inlet and reverse the end the throttle body bolts onto. The diameter of the throttle body would need to be checked as well as the inlet runner length/ diameter because they would both affect power / torque. The main improvements that give power gains on the HD- EG are the cam and upgraded EFI with timing control- those alone are worth the upgrade IMHO. How I would love to dump my current distributor and ECU.......

Thanks for those links Rowdy. Autospeed also did another feature a while back that featured more Daihatsu engine variants, that also had some HD-E and HD-EG info.

a mate of mine and i just worked out that the detomaso will deliver 145nm of torque at a peak of 4000rpm (at 91kW)... not bad for a small engine - but nowhere near his 225nm (he drives an isuzu Mu - 2.8 turbo diesel)

Not bad for a small petrol engine man.. still high at 4000 revs

Not like my Rocky tho.. 245Nm @ 1900rpm oh yehhh

HotFourOk wrote:Not bad for a small petrol engine man.. still high at 4000 revs

Not like my Rocky tho.. 245Nm @ 1900rpm oh yehhh

Hey but you need it in a lard arse Rocky, you're lugging ~500kg extra weight!

I think the gain would well and truly be noticeable. For a start you'd be able to use the full rev range of the engine. I know mine's a waste of time past ~5500RPM.

wel il let u lads kno how i go wen i perform my hde rip out n hdeg swap next wk. old motor almost shitn itself so dats y i bought dis bargian of a motor.

If you wan't a tomato engine ring Dai Parts in Melbourne - they have on sitting in a crate.

MightyMouse wrote:If you wan't a tomato engine ring Dai Parts in Melbourne - they have on sitting in a crate.

Ahhhh, but how much do they want for it including ECU looms etc.?

They're easy enough to find, but usually aren't worth the $$$ asked.

Enough so that I didn't even ask. IMO for the modest increase in output and the cost and effort required - I don't think its worth doing.

Would be better to modify the existing engine - after all thats basically all the Tomato engine is - but if you want the name well go for it.

There's no shortage of good Jap engines out there that are cost effective and with real grunt ( 200SX would be fun.. )

I wouldn't call over 20kW modest when you've only got 70 odd to start with!

If you added up the bits to convert a normal HD-E to Detomaso specs it would cost a few $$$. Cam, different ECU etc. Someone like you could do a lot of it yourself, but for the average backyarder buying an already assembled engine with a working EFI system is a lot easier....

What I was suggesting that if you took the cost of a tomato engine / ecu etc and spent it at a reputable performace place on head rework and cam etc etc you would end up with a similar result and save a lot of effort.

IMO in $$ /kW is a lot for a little - especially with the Feroza's other mechanical limitations.

I think most people would look at it when their engine needed replacing anyway, so they'd be up for a rebuild or replacement garden variety HD-E. Then it would be a worthwhile conversion.

A cam and ECU alone would cost in the vicinity of $1500 up I'd imagine ?

Your probably right about the "upgrade" timeline, can't see it being good value if your engines OK. The Tomato engine I am fimiliar with is distributorless so the electrical modfications are going to be more than just an ECU change. Puting back a disy partially defeats te purpose.

If you have a cam blank ( and any old Applause will do ) then its a cheap option. My last regrind cost me around $70 ( memory failing... ). The Appluase cam is a little more aggressive than the Feroza so whilst I havn't done a direct swap it would be worth considering. My last Applause cam cost me $10 from a "self serve wrecker"

As for the injection system- whilst it's dumb ( compared to current anyway ) it drives on the Lambda sensor most of the time and so has a reasonable capacity to adapt to moderate engine changes. For extra tweaking - modifing the IAT sensor is effective. I saw a UK company selling a kit to do just that for Appluases - don't recal how much but its just a variable resistor and a plug, shouldn't cost more than a few $ to do.

Adding extractors helps - I have wildcats on mine and was preased with the result.

IMO you could get a similar result with carefull mod of a HD and save some bucks.

Yes, although the mechanical differences aren't much (mainly cam) the electrical upgrades would be worth the change alone IMHO. ECU controlled timing (which alone would give a decent power gain- particularly if they have a knock sensor as well???) is one thing I'd love to have.

The other good thing is it wouldn't stand out as a more powerful engine, so easy insurance and rego changeover.....