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Please explain??....!!!
Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:24 pm
by Grantw
I heard about this in a recent forum and would like more info.. Guys were talking about putting rear springs up front with shackle reversal and 3/4 rear... What is 3/4 rear and why put the rears up front? What benefits are there with shackle reversal? The reason I ask is because I used to have spring over but because I live in QLD the transport dudes would not leave me alone. As a result i have not done anything special apart from king springs (SPUA), ranchos and extended shackles. So this is why I ask the questions...
Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:55 pm
by zookjedi
to put rear springs up front your've gotta lengthen your chasiss it means your springs are longer allowing more flex
i believe 3/4 is referring to elliptic conversion
the shackle reversal benefits would be if you were up against a ledge the front wheels would go back whilst enabling climbing opposed to trying to go forward on a standard set up , also theres less to hit up front in the way of hangers , but if you go the camini system the bolt on one you'll be hitting gutters with the hangers hanging so low
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 12:23 pm
by skippy
stressed wrote:to put rear springs up front your've gotta lengthen your chasiss it means your springs are longer allowing more flex
i believe 3/4 is referring to elliptic conversion
the shackle reversal benefits would be if you were up against a ledge the front wheels would go back whilst enabling climbing opposed to trying to go forward on a standard set up , also theres less to hit up front in the way of hangers , but if you go the camini system the bolt on one you'll be hitting gutters with the hangers hanging so low
you can do R.U.F without extending the chassis, but there is still some fabrication work for hangers and shackles which needs to be done.
longer springs = more flex, that's why RUF is a nice simple, cheap and effective modification.
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 12:33 pm
by greg
Sorry Skip - i can't agree with the "cheap" bit - i think doing rears up front (or really doing rears all round) equates to a more expensive job than a Spring Over - assuming you do it with new parts and do it as nicely as possible...
Mine required new rancho shocks, longer brake lines, new rear springs (OME), and a lot of grinding / welding to move the brake line mounts, front spring mounts, front shock mounts, front bump stops.
We did it along with the rear shock mounts at the same time and it took a full weekend with 2 people - so approximately 4 person days.
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 1:25 pm
by Guy
I have to disagree ... the cost of doing any conversion (because rears out front with SPOA will net better flex as well) so all the "other" mods will need to be done anyway as well as fabing up new spring mounts on the diff housing ..
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:21 pm
by greg
love_mud wrote:I have to disagree ... the cost of doing any conversion (because rears out front with SPOA will net better flex as well) so all the "other" mods will need to be done anyway as well as fabing up new spring mounts on the diff housing ..
are you disagreeing to my comment? or to Skippy's?
Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 2:38 pm
by Guy
greg wrote:love_mud wrote:I have to disagree ... the cost of doing any conversion (because rears out front with SPOA will net better flex as well) so all the "other" mods will need to be done anyway as well as fabing up new spring mounts on the diff housing ..
are you disagreeing to my comment? or to Skippy's?
i dunno anymore.. I am feeling evern stupider than usual today
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:47 pm
by redzook
greg wrote:Sorry Skip - i can't agree with the "cheap" bit - i think doing rears up front (or really doing rears all round) equates to a more expensive job than a Spring Over - assuming you do it with new parts and do it as nicely as possible... i cant see how rears upfront would be more expencive then spoa?? a basic spoa kit is around $800
Mine required new rancho shocks, longer brake lines, new rear springs (OME), and a lot of grinding / welding to move the brake line mounts, front spring mounts, front shock mounts, front bump stops. this is also required with spoa plus you have got to do somthin with steering an drive shaft spacers an prolly other things i cant think of
We did it along with the rear shock mounts at the same time and it took a full weekend with 2 people - so approximately 4 person days.
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 4:55 pm
by greg
sorry - didn't realise you were doing all that as well when doing your SPOA conversion...
though it is interesting - that would make the rears up front SPUA conversion even more justifiable in comparison to the SPOA...
hmmm..
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:08 pm
by redzook
greg wrote:sorry - didn't realise you were doing all that as well when doing your SPOA conversion...
though it is interesting - that would make the rears up front SPUA conversion even more justifiable in comparison to the SPOA...
hmmm..
the spoa has lot more benifits though
better approach angle
fit larger tyres easier
better breakover angle
better depature angle
better clearance under the diffs
better flex
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:15 pm
by greg
redzook wrote:greg wrote:sorry - didn't realise you were doing all that as well when doing your SPOA conversion...
though it is interesting - that would make the rears up front SPUA conversion even more justifiable in comparison to the SPOA...
hmmm..
the spoa has lot more benifits though
better approach angle
fit larger tyres easier
better breakover angle
better depature angle
better clearance under the diffs
better flex
oh man... stop it with the jokes - i nearly laughed up a lung
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:18 pm
by grimbo
redzook wrote:the spoa has lot more benifits though
better approach angle
fit larger tyres easier
better breakover angle
better depature angle
better clearance under the diffs
better flex
and cons
have to fix steering
flex springs in ways they weren't designed
raise cog
potential to wreck diff tubes when welding
strange handling behaviour on swb tends to climb in awkward ways
better flex that is debatable more dependant on springs used than just spoa.
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:33 pm
by camskizook
A big spring lift or extended front shackles is gonna screw the steering up anyway, so going cross over or hi steer as a result is a better option in my books. The COG isnt going to be any worse then doing a 2 inch bodylift and 2 inch lifted springs when compared to a spring over to give a 4 inch lift. To buy lifted springs and bodylift and shocks and brakelines isnt going to cost any less than a spring over. I can guarantee that if you use the same spring in spring under, and then again in a spring over, the spring over is going to net more flex.
And also if the amount of work into a spoa is going to be equivalent to doing RUF, then fine....but RUF still isnt going to make the rear springs flex any better........
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:39 pm
by grimbo
I realise that. What i was trying to say is that there is a presumption that the spoa is the be all and end all. it can be done well using appropriate springs and a well thought out series of mods eg steering etc or as was the way a while ago, just cut off the spring pads weld some new ones on and away we go. Same for spua ruf can be done well or not.
But if you go 3/4 in the rear which I wouldn't advise in spoa but in spua you will flex heaps
its horses for courses. It's pretty obvious I like my spua ruf as i have seen more bad performing spoa than good in swb Sierras. I'm sure there are great ones out there that have been done properly that work but to do that is not something that every backyard mechanic can achieve
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:42 pm
by greg
where's the emoticon for :Can of Worms: ?
Umm yeah - only one thing to add - i'm trying to run my rears flat (i.e. without any lift)... now how's that for confusing...
Here's a few ideas to think about:
flatter springs = lower COG
longer springs = more droop
body lift = lower COG than SPOA (you don't lift the chassis, engine etc)
I think the spring over has it's place - but it is likely to be in a car that is being used for mud running and never gets put on a side angle.
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:42 pm
by redzook
grimbo wrote:redzook wrote:the spoa has lot more benifits though
better approach angle
fit larger tyres easier
better breakover angle
better depature angle
better clearance under the diffs
better flex
and cons
have to fix steering
flex springs in ways they weren't designed
raise cog
potential to wreck diff tubes when welding
strange handling behaviour on swb tends to climb in awkward ways
better flex that is debatable more dependant on springs used than just spoa.
have to fix steering- that isnt hard overkill sells a good kit
potential to wreck diff tubes when welding
is this 1 serious?
strange handling behaviour on swb tends to climb in awkward ways??? please explain
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:43 pm
by camskizook
Yup....good point grimbo....Do it properly is the moral here! Otherwise it will be a hopeless POS that will tip over!
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:49 pm
by skippy
cost to me for RUF if I could be arsed doing it (have most of the components in the shed to do it now after sourcing them a while back)
springs x2 sets of rears = $free
steel plate for hangers = $20
Bolts for bolt on mods = $15
Shackle and Spring Bushes (New Rubber) = $5
Shocks = $45 each
Longer Brakelines (from donor vehicle) = $15
steering mods required = nill
perch mods required = nill
line mount mods required = nill
shock mount mods required = nill
chassis black for springs = $5 for a whoopass tin
Time to install = one lazy day of drinking beers and having a mate watch and drink more beers
cost of beer = $60
total = $150, with the potential to blow out to $200-250 maximum. (not including beer costs)
front shock mounts and brake line mounts remain unaffected by my RUF kit.
At the end of the day people do whatever they want to their rigs. cost, time, effort, skill are contributing factors to what is ultimately done at the end of the day.
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:50 pm
by grimbo
redzook wrote:have to fix steering- that isnt hard overkill sells a good kit
potential to wreck diff tubes when welding
is this 1 serious?
strange handling behaviour on swb tends to climb in awkward ways??? please explain
Potential to get tubes out of square when welding as the heat causes them to warp. Has to be done by a competent welder who is aware of the potential of this happening. When I was looking at getting some widetracks about a year ago. I looked at two sets that had been converted to spoa and they were warped due to welder error.
The swb with spoa tend to do two strange things. 1, the rear tries to climb under itself when it reaches a certain point. 2. Picks wheels up in a sudden manner, it appears that that fine line between balance and wheels up is less noticable in the spoa. (This is from observation of a variety of spoa that I have watched here and in the US)
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 5:51 pm
by camskizook
greg wrote:
I think the spring over has it's place - but it is likely to be in a car that is being used for mud running and never gets put on a side angle.
Ive seen more zooks tip over due to bodylifts and stiff springs then those that are sprung over......my springs sit flat which means my zook sits at a nice height.. Id feel much more confident in mine on a side angle than one with a spring and bodylift anyday
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 6:04 pm
by M&M Custom Engineerin
greg wrote:
I think the spring over has it's place - but it is likely to be in a car that is being used for mud running and never gets put on a side angle.
you havent seen the side angles me and matt get our zooks on
RE
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:39 pm
by Grantw
I know all the benefits of SPOA. I had to go back to SPUA because our stupid transport laws in QLD do not allow us to do this anymore....That is why I asked the questions!!!!????......Unfortunately the older I get the more importance I place of keeping the vehicle legal....
Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 7:52 pm
by moose
entering the ring now is .............
I have rears up front , with a shackle reversal !!!!!!!
wouldnt swap back to conventional spring set up for lotsa $$$$$$ !!!!!!
best bit is the ride quality !!!!
lot smoother , not so SWB bucky !!!!!
approach angle is greatly improved !!!!
front flex is awsome !!!! ( in my books anyway !!!!!!
)
total cost for me was $$$$$ 0.00 !!!!!
had the springs , already had longer brake lines !!!
material used , did it at work , 1 quiet afternoon !!!!!
moved diff forward 50mm , easy ,
made new hole in top spring with PLASMA cutter !!!!!!
but as every 1 has said !!!
HORSES 4 COURSES !!!!!!!
do wat you mant to do !!!!!!
p.s. , I have SPOA in the rear !!!!
& the front out flexs the rear !!!!
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 9:52 am
by greg
mickbj42 wrote:greg wrote:
I think the spring over has it's place - but it is likely to be in a car that is being used for mud running and never gets put on a side angle.
you havent seen the side angles me and matt get our zooks on
true - i can see yours is balancing quite nicely... looks good.
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:28 am
by miikeboyle
hey moose
whats the specs on your rim and tyre sizes
thanks
mike
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 5:35 pm
by *BESTY*
miikeboyle wrote:hey moose
whats the specs on your rim and tyre sizes
thanks
mike
33x12.5R15 Super Swampers
Posted: Wed Aug 20, 2003 10:09 pm
by moose
miikeboyle wrote:hey moose
whats the specs on your rim and tyre sizes
thanks
mike
15 x 7 rims !!!! sshhhh !!!!!
dont know back spacing !!!! sorry !!!!!
33 x 12.5 x 15 swampers !!!!!!
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 12:57 pm
by Shorty40
moose wrote:entering the ring now is .............
I have rears up front , with a shackle reversal !!!!!!!
wouldnt swap back to conventional spring set up for lotsa $$$$$$ !!!!!!
best bit is the ride quality !!!!
lot smoother , not so SWB bucky !!!!!
approach angle is greatly improved !!!!
front flex is awsome !!!! ( in my books anyway !!!!!!
)
total cost for me was $$$$$ 0.00 !!!!!
had the springs , already had longer brake lines !!!
material used , did it at work , 1 quiet afternoon !!!!!
moved diff forward 50mm , easy ,
made new hole in top spring with PLASMA cutter !!!!!!
but as every 1 has said !!!
HORSES 4 COURSES !!!!!!!
do wat you mant to do !!!!!!
p.s. , I have SPOA in the rear !!!!
& the front out flexs the rear !!!!
I'm pretty sure this has been brought up before, but what is the go with all the exclamation marks
Are you that emphatic about everything you say or is it like a trademark
Not having a go, just curious
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:54 pm
by greg
Shorty40 wrote:I'm pretty sure this has been brought up before, but what is the go with all the exclamation marks
Are you that emphatic about everything you say or is it like a trademark
Not having a go, just curious
Top of the Muffin to you!
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 6:56 pm
by moose
Shorty40 wrote:
Are you that emphatic about everything you say or is it like a trademark
that would be it
!
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 