Outer Limits 4x4 Board

After moding suspension and stuff on the cruiser, I now am after more articulation at the front end.

http://www.ozsigns.com/aussie/fj80tohzj ... index.html
www.ozsigns.com/aussie/fj80tohzj80/offroad/index.html

Rear end is good, but front seems to be poor, if a front wheel falls into a hole/rut or whatever, the car will kinda dive with the wheel (have in mind that swaybars are never fitted), I pretty much want the car to stay levelled while a front wheel droopes all the way down. I do realize that the front has the weight of the engine, but every car does, so...

Basically, while retaining the original control arms, how do you get more droop on the front. Is there anything that can be improved???? Or will I have to live with it???

I am all ears to suggestions.

Ulises

udm wrote:After moding suspension and stuff on the cruiser, I now am after more articulation at the front end.

http://www.ozsigns.com/aussie/fj80tohzj ... index.html
www.ozsigns.com/aussie/fj80tohzj80/offroad/index.html

Rear end is good, but front seems to be poor, if a front wheel falls into a hole/rut or whatever, the car will kinda dive with the wheel (have in mind that swaybars are never fitted), I pretty much want the car to stay levelled while a front wheel droopes all the way down. I do realize that the front has the weight of the engine, but every car does, so...

Basically, while retaining the original control arms, how do you get more droop on the front. Is there anything that can be improved???? Or will I have to live with it???

I am all ears to suggestions.

Ulises

5 link? isn't part of the problem that the standard 3 link, through the 2 connection points on the diff means the diff acts like a swaybar, as their trying to twist the housing? there may be misalignment joints or something you can use, but i am no expert

bad_religion_au wrote:5 link? isn't part of the problem that the standard 3 link, through the 2 connection points on the diff means the diff acts like a swaybar, as their trying to twist the housing? there may be misalignment joints or something you can use, but i am no expert

Hmmm... 5 link... nice.....

Option 1: make my own arms or
Option 2: Buy arms (no do, to much $$$$$$$$$$$$$)

Would option 1 be engineerable?

Ulises

udm wrote:

bad_religion_au wrote:5 link? isn't part of the problem that the standard 3 link, through the 2 connection points on the diff means the diff acts like a swaybar, as their trying to twist the housing? there may be misalignment joints or something you can use, but i am no expert

Hmmm... 5 link... nice.....

Option 1: make my own arms or
Option 2: Buy arms (no do, to much $$$$$$$$$$$$$)

Would option 1 be engineerable?

Ulises

if you speak to an engineer and get his input, it should be. but better to ask him what he wants/ needs from it so he can sign off on it... before you make them

How about replacing the bushes with the type that pivot and are greaseable? I think they are advertised in 4wdmonthly...

I dont mean the steel type used for steering rods but the nylothane ones that look like a ball with a steel case..

Mostly seen them in some GQ's articles in the mag from time to time..

Oh and if you try it, and it works, let us know

Toy80Diesel wrote:How about replacing the bushes with the type that pivot and are greaseable? I think they are advertised in 4wdmonthly...

I dont mean the steel type used for steering rods but the nylothane ones that look like a ball with a steel case..

Mostly seen them in some GQ's articles in the mag from time to time..

Oh and if you try it, and it works, let us know

You can get em from off road industries in siverwater, sydney
(02) 9748 1116

30degrees of misalignment or something. Not bad at all

Incidentally, I say go the five link.

The bush problem is at the axle end, not the chassis end. The need to crush is the suspension is going to articulate, the angle stuff is less of a problem. eg, If you replace the axle bushes with rose/heims, it wont articulte at all.

5links are a waste of $$ imo, flex is not everything and by going 5link you lose a lot of drivability onroad. spend the $$ to buy a locker, you will get just as far as the bloke with a 5link AND locker.

Tiny wrote:5links are a waste of $$ imo, flex is not everything and by going 5link you lose a lot of drivability onroad. spend the $$ to buy a locker, you will get just as far as the bloke with a 5link AND locker.

Well said! The fact that one front wheel gets a little air wont be a problem with lockers. And the cost of a 5 link is expensive.

But I really think those bushes would help to pivot the axel that little bit more which would equate to, IMHO, at least a couple inches more droop if not more.

I also noticed years ago on my suzuki that offsetting the rims gave more leverage, therefore more flex. As the weight fell onto the wheel that was tucked up into the guard, the other would drop further.

looking at the pics that you posted.. it does not look like the front springs are compressing that well...

perhaps the spring rates are too high..

as landy man said... do you knwo the spring rates front and rear???

UDM still has the swaybars connected, by making a quick disconnect or spending the time before going offroad to dissconect the sway bar will free it all up a little, I think it is a diesel as well, and from what I have seen when he is driving the flex is fine for a standard susp set up

Tiny wrote:UDM still has the swaybars connected,

not according to

udm wrote:(have in mind that swaybars are never fitted),

and i thought drivability in any suspension design was dependant on the geometry that you build into it.

bad_religion_au wrote:

Tiny wrote:UDM still has the swaybars connected,

not according to

udm wrote:(have in mind that swaybars are never fitted),

and i thought drivability in any suspension design was dependant on the geometry that you build into it.

last time we went wheeling he said swaybars were connected, I didnt notice the bit where he said they were not

Tiny wrote:last time we went wheeling he said swaybars were connected, I didnt notice the bit where he said they were not

Yeh, sorry everybody, swaybars have never been on the car except that trip with Tiny where I was only just trying out the swaybar extensions I made and checking if they would touch the driveshaft (just for engineering purposes), after that trip they were shelved right away again.

Ulises

udm wrote:

Rear end is good, but front seems to be poor, if a front wheel falls into a hole/rut or whatever, the car will kinda dive with the wheel (have in mind that swaybars are never fitted), I pretty much want the car to stay levelled while a front wheel droopes all the way down. I do realize that the front has the weight of the engine, but every car does, so...

Wont the vehicle only stay level if the rear wheel on the same side is getting pushed up a bit at the same time?
As said, mebee your front springs are a bit too stif as well.
Would also depend on the angle your trucks already at when it happens and how much suds you got in the back.

Was having a quick thought about the 5 link, this is what came up to my mind...

1-Getting a pair of front control arms (don´t want to stuffup the original ones), chop off the 1st bush section diff end, bolt on to the diff the section that was left, leaving the castor plates on just to reinforce the diff brackets.
2-Modifing 2 rear lower control arms (I already have a pair), chopping and extending them to be used as the front top control arms. Also by adjusting these I would be able to correct caster (not that I need it). There is plenty room for these 2 arms.

Pros: There wont be no need of cutting off original diff mounts, etc, meaning I can go back to standard setup if the experiment doesn´t work.

Cons: The only problem I can see so far, the tie rod will hit the lower control arm when suspension articulates.

Ok... now, what are the good and bad things you can see about this?

If this setup does work, it´s not going to cost as much as some say, and as said if it doesn´t work, it´ll be easy to go back to standard.

I hope the idea got through.

Ulises

Tiny wrote:5links are a waste of $$ imo, flex is not everything and by going 5link you lose a lot of drivability onroad. spend the $$ to buy a locker, you will get just as far as the bloke with a 5link AND locker.

Who doesn´t like the idea of a front locker? But I really want to find out if the car can be kept levelled while front end droopes, cause thats how the rear works.

AnthonyP wrote:as landy man said... do you knwo the spring rates front and rear???

I did try 4" medium springs, but they were to soft, not much lift would have been achieved, so I opted for the HD ones, (front and rear) code for the front springs is KTFR 69SP4 (KingSprings)

Tiny wrote:by going 5link you lose a lot of drivability onroad.

Tiny, what exactly happens with a 5linked car when onroad? Is it less stable or something?
I wouldn´t think much has changed, panhard is still there, bottom arms are pretty much the same only with 1 bolt to the diff, and 2 added top arms to hold the diffs geometry (making up for the bolt that will not be used from the lower arms).

Ok, so there you have it, Im up for suggestions, pros/cons, flaming or whatever you want.

Ulises

What sort of driving do you do in it? Does it need to be street driveable?Do you really think that you need more front end droop? As some others have said, I'd probably go the locker first.

Have you thought about putting an arm on top of the diff to the chassis rail and pulling the front radius arm bolts out when off road? That would free it up a little more, maybe just an idea.

udm wrote:Was having a quick thought about the 5 link, this is what came up to my mind...

1-Getting a pair of front control arms (don´t want to stuffup the original ones), chop off the 1st bush section diff end, bolt on to the diff the section that was left, leaving the castor plates on just to reinforce the diff brackets.
2-Modifing 2 rear lower control arms (I already have a pair), chopping and extending them to be used as the front top control arms. Also by adjusting these I would be able to correct caster (not that I need it). There is plenty room for these 2 arms.

Pros: There wont be no need of cutting off original diff mounts, etc, meaning I can go back to standard setup if the experiment doesn´t work.

Cons: The only problem I can see so far, the tie rod will hit the lower control arm when suspension articulates.

Ok... now, what are the good and bad things you can see about this?

If this setup does work, it´s not going to cost as much as some say, and as said if it doesn´t work, it´ll be easy to go back to standard.

I hope the idea got through.

Ulises

better to put a pin in one of the forward most arms and take it out offroad, try this, dont cut the front section off and dont drive on the rod without them and make sure the pin is in on road

Do you still have the stock rubber bushes, with holes in the top and bottom of the rubber part? These should be the best for articulation. If you have polyurethane bushes, then change back to stock rubber bushes.

A rear sway bar will force the front to articulate more, so try refitting it, but leave the front off.

Lower the front spring rate will help more. A spring with taller free length and or spring spacers will help regain the lift you want. I dont know what is available for cruisers though.

RV wrote:Have you thought about putting an arm on top of the diff to the chassis rail and pulling the front radius arm bolts out when off road? That would free it up a little more, maybe just an idea.

A free body has a total of 6 degrees of freedom - translation in 3 axii and rotation about 3 axii.

We want the axle to have only 2 degrees of freedom - translation in the vertical direction and rotation about the for and aft axis (articulation). To remove the other 4 degrees of freedom, requires exactly 4 links.

Theoretically:

3 links will allow 3 degrees of freedom - will not be driveable.

5 links will allow only 1 degree of freedom - suspension will either not articulate or not move vertically.

By definition a link can only carry axial loads and is free to rotate at both ends.

It is incorrect to call a radius arm a link as the 2 bushes at the axle end do not allow it to rotate - except within the limited amount allowed by deflection of the rubber bushes. This limited rotation is what causes the radius arms to bind and limit articulation.

Now we know that some people have 5 link suspensions that have 2 degrees of freedom. But again, this is only within the amount allowed by flex in the bushes at each end of the links - the length of the links change under load. A 5 link also needs to have parallel links (except for the panhard) or they will allow less articulation. But with parallel links, you will not have any anti-dive under heavy braking (unlike radius arms).

A 3 link plus panhard (4 links total) will not bind, but these present other problems.

What RV described (quote above) would be a 3 link plus panhard when you remove 1 of the bolts from the front of each radius arm. But this would be unsafe at speed and would not steer very well, because of the flexible bushes in the links - a 3 link needs to have stiff bushes.

However with all bolts fittted to the radius arms and and a link on top of the diff you will have zero degrees of freedom and the suspension will be far to rigid even on the highway. And it is unlikely that you could re-fit the bolts that were removed from the radius arms without a lot of difficulty.

udm wrote:

AnthonyP wrote:as landy man said... do you knwo the spring rates front and rear???

I did try 4" medium springs, but they were to soft, not much lift would have been achieved, so I opted for the HD ones, (front and rear) code for the front springs is KTFR 69SP4 (KingSprings)

well the fronts i would expect to be to stiff, as HD front would more suit whinch and bar and dual bats etc etc.

Kroozer has 240lb front and 300lb rear and althought its seems soft for a cruiser at 3" over standard the ride is sweet. and it seems to flex alright aswell, nuthign special but longer shocks would be a bonus.

AnthonyP wrote:well the fronts i would expect to be to stiff, as HD front would more suit whinch and bar and dual bats etc etc.

The car was a 4l petrol, now diesel (heavy bugger), dual battery, etc, no winch though, but still heavy, around 200kls heavier then when it was petrol, hence the HD springs.

Soft/medium springs would make the nose stick to the ground.

Do you guys suggest using soft but longer springs (6" or more) to achieve at least 4" of lift?