Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Hey guys,

Spent the weekend in the garage in Lebanon finishing the plans for the Disco. Let me tell you that its looking sweet, you can see things here (I'll add all the previous pics there later on):






Anyways, specs will be:

TD5 Land Rover Deseil (current state of 200hp, 325lb/ft)
Nitrous (have to re-work some things from the old system)
Land Rover Auto (heavily modified and cooled)
42" Rubber
1.5 Tonnes
Exocage
dual winches
~100:1 crawl ratio

That's about it - project should be done in a month's time.

A couple of questions:
1. Auto box, any modifications needed other than GREAT cooling?
2. What other than the TD5 ECU needs to be out of water?
3. Any chance in getting a MUCH larger hydro pump to fit the TD5?

Thanks.

your a ledgend, you dent the front guard and you cut your car in half .

how are the toy axles ever going to survive the 42s?

Some people mod the zf with bits from a jaguar, but i hear the ones behind the 4.6 rangies are pretty strong too. Good luck getting it to 1.5 tonnes, i dont think it will be possible getting it under 1.8 - theres alot of barwork and winches there.

You could always run a hydraulic pump off the pto output on the transfer?

The td5 is drive by wire, so i'd waterproof the accelerator pedal box a bit more.

Andrew

Cool.

But are you sure you need that front part, with full doors, windshield and roof? The tall roof looks a little silly. I like the idea of building a sort of tube bed back there, though.

Poor axles.

Me like... LOTS
Abit worried about strength in the toy centres but hey only time will tell.

As for weight I was hoping to have mine finsished at around 1.8 originally, but after you add in all the extra for bar work and stuff you realise that the weight is hard to loose.
If you get it down to 1.5 ill def be interested to see how you went about it.

Cheers
Anthony

p.s. let me know how you go about modding and cooling the auto too.

p.p.s. i got wood

I also noticed your keeping the original wheelbase... its gonna look fat ass with 42s.
Not worried about driving steep inclines the torque twist and forces trying to lift the front wheels of the ground will be huge.

1. I think Les Richmond Automotive (Vic,Aust) has worked out how to get a lower 1st gear ratio in the ZF 4HP22/24, as well as stall convertor lock-up adjustments.


Hardy

I think at the right weight, and using an Auto, the axles should be plenty fine. Worst case I'll drop down to 4.3 R&P and Cyro them

Anthony, man, been getting dizzy from the woody myself!

Well, without A/C, heater, glass (except front) no plastic panels at all, plastic seats, and practillary NOTHING on the truck, I think 1.5 is doable (Plexi is expensive though)!

I still have three jokers to play should I necessitate it getting to 1.5:
1. Airshocks to replace the coils and shocks and their brackets
2. Alum beadlocked wheels
3. Disc brake for the hand brake

The auto cooling will be two tube type coolers in syn both in front of the radiator.

Sticking to the original wheelbase as $ don't allow for custom links, driveshafts, coil-overs, full hydro and such, but I think, for the time being I'll be winching the front end down to the axle & deflate front more than rear

Thats about 164kw and 440Nm. You can get more than that out of the TD5. I run on the road 160-170kw and 520Nm, others are running on the road around 200kw from these motors. Mine is just a base level chip and an intercooler, nothing else.

For the auto, the TD5 runs the ZF 4HP22EH which is rated to 380Nm, though 44Nm will work it. If you can get the Zf 4HP24EH which went behind the 4.6V8, then that one is rated to 500NM, though with its requirement for more cooling, its also about 30mm longer due to the pump.

With the TD5, you may be able to get an ACE pump which should flow a bit, though I'm not sure how much.

DiscoDino wrote:I still have three jokers to play should I necessitate it getting to 1.5:
1. Airshocks to replace the coils and shocks and their brackets
2. Alum beadlocked wheels
3. Disc brake for the hand brake

I'm just thinking of the 110 based lockless monster used by ruff in the last tuff truck, it weighed in at close to 1800kg from what i have read (correct me if i'm wrong) , it had a rover v8 (i'm pretty sure it is lighter than the 5 cyl oiler) plastic seats, airshocks, No glass & very limited bodywork (no inner guards and half doors) and stuff all barwork - not much more than a 6 point cage.

Alloy wheels would save a few kgs - 20 mabe, and and disc handbreak mabe 10 kgs max. remove your dash and heater and replace with a folded bit of 2.5mm alloy and mabe save another 20.

i think there is no way with that much barwork (mabe if it was alloy ) you can't get within a few hundred kgs of 1500.

What did it weigh before the chop? i'm guessing kitted up with cage, tyres winch, gutted interior, and barwork, about 2 tonne.

It will, however be very unique and inspiring to many on this forum please keep us updated with progress pics and specs.

Andrew

Before chopping without ANY tools, equipement that can be taken off her and a 1/2 tank of petrol it was 1,970, that was with an 8 point cage, full bodywork, glass, etc...

So 1.5T may be very ambitious, but I think I'll hit it, if not, I'll get close - either way, this is my dream machine and I'm loving any second of it

Slunnie wrote:Thats about 164kw and 440Nm. You can get more than that out of the TD5. I run on the road 160-170kw and 520Nm, others are running on the road around 200kw from these motors. Mine is just a base level chip and an intercooler, nothing else.

For the auto, the TD5 runs the ZF 4HP22EH which is rated to 380Nm, though 44Nm will work it. If you can get the Zf 4HP24EH which went behind the 4.6V8, then that one is rated to 500NM, though with its requirement for more cooling, its also about 30mm longer due to the pump.

With the TD5, you may be able to get an ACE pump which should flow a bit, though I'm not sure how much.

Well, my TD5 is a 2001 model with the R380, running a massive intercooler (alum), upgraded turbo hoses, straight exhaust, K&N & a PSI power chip, so what should be the deliveries from that? What else can I tune to get more output and yet remain on the reliable front?

just sooo

You really think the cryo centres make a big difference??? I have herd from afew sources its a waste of time....

I cant fit the two oil coolers infront of the radiator as my winch now sits in its place taking up abit of room. and if i chnage to a high mount itll have less room again.

I am keepin my eyes on u

Here's the front clip where the oil coolers will come and winch with them...the bottom of the winch is planned to be inline with the bottom of the chassis.



What's your guess on width and diff clearance?

Hey Dino,

Getting back to what Hardy said about lower first gearing and stall speeds, I got my 4HP22 converter stall reduced to 200rpm less than standard V8 RRC, and this will help a lot to keep it cool. Les Richmond automotive have done this aswell as the lower first gear ratio mod, ( I think using a BMW 5Series planetary set?) and have had good success I believe running behind big output V8's. I'm running a turbo intercooled Isuzu 4BD1 and this has already overheated and broken 2 ZF autos. This will be the third box, and I'm using a temp gauge on this one!!! I'm also going to detune it a bit.

I've heard someone with a similar set up getting 540Nm from theirs....all around 2000rpm.

OOps.

Td5 is unbreakable motor, but replace head gasket with thickest one prior to use if the donor engine has done anywhere near 150,000km.

Electronics are a problem if under water, there is a company in UK advertising in LRO I think, who design and sell ECU loom extension cables to mount ECU in roof or on roll cage etc, this might be worth looking into. The throttle potentiometer can be protected adequately with silicon and sprayed with a silicon type de-watering fluid regularly. Don't forget the auto box from a disco 2 is electronically controlled, and the engine ECU must be from a Disco if this is used. I thought of using a non electronic auto behind a Td5 to keep it simple, and using the kickdown cable directly off the throttle pedal... I think simplicity is best. Use a Defender ECU and loom, as the Early Td5 defenders don't have a full body computer to interface with the engine ECU like the Disco2.
Regarding diff- lockers, have you thought of the Haultech traction control instead???Easier on the axles and just as efficient. I'm saving my $$$ to get this system for my RR.
Good on you for trying to keep the weight down, some people don't realise this is the cheapest way to increase the power to weight ratio in a 4x4. A lot of vehicles could benefit from a bit of weight loss to improve their performance...

Enjoy the project of a lifetime

JC

DiscoDino wrote:

Slunnie wrote:Thats about 164kw and 440Nm. You can get more than that out of the TD5. I run on the road 160-170kw and 520Nm, others are running on the road around 200kw from these motors. Mine is just a base level chip and an intercooler, nothing else.

For the auto, the TD5 runs the ZF 4HP22EH which is rated to 380Nm, though 44Nm will work it. If you can get the Zf 4HP24EH which went behind the 4.6V8, then that one is rated to 500NM, though with its requirement for more cooling, its also about 30mm longer due to the pump.

With the TD5, you may be able to get an ACE pump which should flow a bit, though I'm not sure how much.

Well, my TD5 is a 2001 model with the R380, running a massive intercooler (alum), upgraded turbo hoses, straight exhaust, K&N & a PSI power chip, so what should be the deliveries from that? What else can I tune to get more output and yet remain on the reliable front?

I don't have any personal experience with the TD5.

You could try LPG/propane injection, this is good for increasing the power and torque from diesels.

What type of turbo is on a TD5? The variable nozzle turbos produce better boost earlier, which is better for what you want to to.

DiscoDino wrote:Here's the front clip where the oil coolers will come and winch with them...the bottom of the winch is planned to be inline with the bottom of the chassis.

What's your guess on width and diff clearance?

I would put a bloody big transmission oil cooler with electric fans behind the cab.

It is well to reduce weight, but it is much more important to reduce weight in the ends as this will dramatically reduce pitching inertia.

You will have a winch and barwork out front so move everything else that doesn't need to be there, back between the front and rear axles. This includes the batteries get them back and low (beneath the seats is good). Then run heavy welding cable to the winch solenoids.

DiscoDino wrote:

Slunnie wrote:Thats about 164kw and 440Nm. You can get more than that out of the TD5. I run on the road 160-170kw and 520Nm, others are running on the road around 200kw from these motors. Mine is just a base level chip and an intercooler, nothing else.

For the auto, the TD5 runs the ZF 4HP22EH which is rated to 380Nm, though 44Nm will work it. If you can get the Zf 4HP24EH which went behind the 4.6V8, then that one is rated to 500NM, though with its requirement for more cooling, its also about 30mm longer due to the pump.

With the TD5, you may be able to get an ACE pump which should flow a bit, though I'm not sure how much.

Well, my TD5 is a 2001 model with the R380, running a massive intercooler (alum), upgraded turbo hoses, straight exhaust, K&N & a PSI power chip, so what should be the deliveries from that? What else can I tune to get more output and yet remain on the reliable front?

I'm not sure what you'd be getting. 160-170kw/520Nm is just a chip and high capacity intercooler. They can be chipped for more power again, though I'm not sure if there is much more torque to be had easily.

Bush65 wrote:

DiscoDino wrote:

Slunnie wrote:Thats about 164kw and 440Nm. You can get more than that out of the TD5. I run on the road 160-170kw and 520Nm, others are running on the road around 200kw from these motors. Mine is just a base level chip and an intercooler, nothing else.

For the auto, the TD5 runs the ZF 4HP22EH which is rated to 380Nm, though 44Nm will work it. If you can get the Zf 4HP24EH which went behind the 4.6V8, then that one is rated to 500NM, though with its requirement for more cooling, its also about 30mm longer due to the pump.

With the TD5, you may be able to get an ACE pump which should flow a bit, though I'm not sure how much.

Well, my TD5 is a 2001 model with the R380, running a massive intercooler (alum), upgraded turbo hoses, straight exhaust, K&N & a PSI power chip, so what should be the deliveries from that? What else can I tune to get more output and yet remain on the reliable front?

I don't have any personal experience with the TD5.

You could try LPG/propane injection, this is good for increasing the power and torque from diesels.

What type of turbo is on a TD5? The variable nozzle turbos produce better boost earlier, which is better for what you want to to.

I hear that Nitrous reacts well to Deisels...what's your take on that?

Bush65 wrote:I would put a bloody big transmission oil cooler with electric fans behind the cab.

It is well to reduce weight, but it is much more important to reduce weight in the ends as this will dramatically reduce pitching inertia.

You will have a winch and barwork out front so move everything else that doesn't need to be there, back between the front and rear axles. This includes the batteries get them back and low (beneath the seats is good). Then run heavy welding cable to the winch solenoids.

Trans cooler is more and more likely to be in the back - the Merc 1992-1998 S series had a huge one and can be found for nothing in the scrap yards...the Radiator also may be put back, not sure about that though...The winches will be very close to being right on top of the axles, so that should be safe...any more suggestions? I'll be running 170 lightforces up front to save weight

DiscoDino wrote:

Bush65 wrote:

DiscoDino wrote:

Slunnie wrote:Thats about 164kw and 440Nm. You can get more than that out of the TD5. I run on the road 160-170kw and 520Nm, others are running on the road around 200kw from these motors. Mine is just a base level chip and an intercooler, nothing else.

For the auto, the TD5 runs the ZF 4HP22EH which is rated to 380Nm, though 44Nm will work it. If you can get the Zf 4HP24EH which went behind the 4.6V8, then that one is rated to 500NM, though with its requirement for more cooling, its also about 30mm longer due to the pump.

With the TD5, you may be able to get an ACE pump which should flow a bit, though I'm not sure how much.

Well, my TD5 is a 2001 model with the R380, running a massive intercooler (alum), upgraded turbo hoses, straight exhaust, K&N & a PSI power chip, so what should be the deliveries from that? What else can I tune to get more output and yet remain on the reliable front?

I don't have any personal experience with the TD5.

You could try LPG/propane injection, this is good for increasing the power and torque from diesels.

What type of turbo is on a TD5? The variable nozzle turbos produce better boost earlier, which is better for what you want to to.

I hear that Nitrous reacts well to Deisels...what's your take on that?

LPG fogging is street legal in Aus, whereas Nitrous isn't.

Coccaine flogging is legal in Lebanon

Ah..... Coccains not cool here.

width - 2.2M

p.s. your chassis may be slightly bent

AnthonyP wrote:width - 2.2M

p.s. your chassis may be slightly bent

Yeah, width should be ~2.1-2.2m. No, the chassis seems bent due to the transmission lines appearently, been debating that on PBB

DiscoDino wrote:

AnthonyP wrote:width - 2.2M

p.s. your chassis may be slightly bent

Yeah, width should be ~2.1-2.2m. No, the chassis seems bent due to the transmission lines appearently, been debating that on PBB

yeah i noticed the debate I was aiming for 2.1 wide myself, wat about total height??? although i have no body lift I will be about 5-6" over standard spring height and aiming for a final heigh of about 2.1 (a big square ).

Wats the current backspacing and size of the rims you got fitted at the moment (looks to be heavy neg offset )???

cheers
Anthony

p.s. my font inner wheel wells are gooooone

Anthony...POST PICS! Let's see what you are doing...I didn't want to take them out completely for structural integrity...no?

I'm on 10x15 rims, with weld on beadlocks on the outside, so let's say 11x15, with 4" inside and 7" outside...I'm looking at 1.25" spacers (which I already have) if needed...

Height wise, I am not sure...but it should be ~30cm taller than stock, not more, but with almost no weight up top, the COG should be quite reasonable...are you running 42"s?

Nadim, the front wells thing was a bit of discussion over the wekend.... even begun discussing dove tailing the front but wont happen. YET..

I am only running 39.5s on 17x9s, looking at getting sum beadlocked wheels at the moment with -2" offset (2.5" backspacing). on the toyo diffs it should be wide enough.

I dont know how it will only be 30cm taller than stock , mine is fairly low at the moment will have to get the heights of a stock rover to find out the differences. (am looking to purchase another rangie, pending $$$ at the moment).

I also went with a custom 3 link plus panhard front (as u probably know) , revised it three times to wat i think has good geometry but may be lacking in verticle seperation. (no pics of final setup)

the aircond lines and stuff are all gone, gonna turn it into endles air, The rear tray will be 4" pipe and will most prob be the air tank

Id luv to go 42s but am already worried about breakin it as is with the 39s (i do drive pretty stoopidly) Am very keen to see how the toy centres go in your application.

Really just got one thing leading to another.... b4 i know it the stak 3 spd case will arrive Ill have the individual cutting breaks for the rear end (utilising the original 80series handbrake drum assemblys), and who knows wat else will pop up in the next few weeks
Ill keep in touch (as always) and ill be watching you

for the mean time this a pic of the front barwork thats is bein employed to mount the 16" King coilovers


and also in this pic you can sorts see the 3 link mounts on the front diff


and like you the back end is off (keepin the four doors) and starting to pulll bits out of the interior.

to give you a rough idea of current height/width. The following photo shows the tyres on 17x9 with approx 5" backspacing.


The ride height should be about 2" higher than is shown and the width in the rimms will change from;
5" back - 4" out
to
2.5" back - 6.5" out
so another 5" added to the stance.

I think ill be cutting the bonnet or dove tailing sooner than expected

Small update:

Drivetrain: Ordered the underdrive from Ashcroft (thanks Dave), located a 4 belt 4.2, a matching 4.2 ZF, stock LT230 & will need to plumb in a Merc Benz truck's auto cooler+fan & a custom mount for a BIG ASS hydro pump.

Body: Decided to re-use the albine windows for the sides and a Golf Rabbit Mark 1 rear flat window with regulator. Stock dash and heater remain (no budget to go custom gauges and all for now) with internal "mini-cage" for seats and harness

Everything else (i.e. whatever is left) - remains as is.

Hey guys,

Just came back from Lebanon and checking up on the truck...

Her are some pics of the latest update...3-4 weeks and we should have it registered and good to go...

The 4.2 V8 got a brand new camshaft, and the 4.2L ZF were installed, the DBA rotors and EBC pads will go on as well, along with the RTE bottom rear spring shims and the A-arm extension will be set on the 2nd level (more pitch for the rear 3rd). The underdrive is to be sent tomorrow and should be in teh truck by next Monday. We secured an old Signaw box, I'll post pics once I get them, but the guy guaranteed that it'll push oceans

The approach angle is sweet, and I'm planning to make sure the winch stays behind the chassis ears. The front fenders were nicely reformed, the hood remains intact, but there is no more BS in front of the wheel. Once we push the cab 2-4" towards the rear, then this should give ample room for the 42s. Clearance under the diff is quite nice .

Now the BEST part of this whole thing is that my mechanic, who's my buddy and is handling the project as I'm needed at work most of the time, came up with the idea to seal the rear part of teh cab with the roof, and using the alpine lights vertically to allow me to see out the sides - not sure if you guys find it "attractive", but that's not the point here, its functional, and "smartly recycled" - I love it!