Outer Limits 4x4 Board

For anyone who's fitted a larger tyre to their Feroza- have you got it engineered?

I was browsing through the ADR's on fitting larger tyres and it's illegal to fit anything 15mm greater in diameter than the largest specified tyre on the placard.

Even just going from the 225/70 to a 235/75 is a 37.5mm increase.......

in fact, it would be interesting to know the legalities in each state, on what you can run, eg: 35" tyres, 10" rims, etc. there are lots of rumours around, but no one seems to know precisely, the law.

That was from the SA Road Traffic Act, here's the section it's from:

(5) Despite the requirements of any other regulation or rule under the Act, a motor vehicle that is required to comply with ADR 24 may be-
(a)equipped with tyres other than those listed on the tyre placard fitted to the vehicle, provided that-
(i)the load of a tyre fitted is not less than the lowest load listed on the tyre placard; and
(ii)the overall diameter of a wheel and tyre fitted is not more than 15 millimetres greater than that advised in the Tyre and Rim Standards Manual (issued by the Tyre and Rim Association of Australia) for the largest tyre size listed on the placard and not more than 15 millimetres less than that advised in the Manual for the smallest tyre size listed on the placard; or
(b)equipped with wheels wider than those listed on the tyre placard; or
(c)equipped with wheels with a rim diameter other than a rim diameter (if any) listed on the tyre placard, provided that the rim diameter of a wheel fitted is not more than 50 millimetres greater than the largest diameter listed on the placard and not more than 50 millimetres less than the smallest diameter listed on the placard.


Here's the equaivalent burst from Vicroads:

8. WHEELS AND TYRES

Replacement wheels and tyres may be fitted provided that they comply with the following requirements:

The width of any replacement rim must not be:
more than 25mm greater than the widest wheel specified by the vehicle manufacturer for that model or vehicle series; or
less than the width of the narrowest rim specified by the vehicle manufacturer for that model or vehicle series.
Rims, which have been widened, must have no more than one peripheral weld. All welding must be carried out in accordance with recognised engineering standards, and the rims must comply in all respects with specifications contained in the Tyre and Rim Standards Manual published by the Tyre and Rim Association of Australia.
The overall diameter of any replacement rim and tyre must not be:
more than 15mm greater than largest diameter tyre specified by the vehicle manufacturer for that model or vehicle series; or
more than 15mm less than the smallest diameter tyre specified by the vehicle manufacturer for that model or vehicle series.
Rim and tyre combinations must be in accordance with the recommendations contained in the Tyre and Rim Standards Manual published by the Tyre and Rim Association of Australia and have a load and speed rating equal to or better than that required by the standards for registration.
The wheels and tyres must not foul any part of the body, suspension, steering or brake components at any position of the suspension travel or steering movement and, when in the straight ahead position, the guard or bodywork of the vehicle must cover the section width of the tyre.

Note: The section width of a tyre is the distance between the outsides of the sidewalls of an inflated tyre excluding any markings, bands or ribs.

The maximum allowable track increase is:

in the case of a front axle-25 mm;
in the case of a rear axle with independent suspension-25 mm;
in the case of other rear axles-50 mm; and
in the case of a motor vehicle manufactured with a combination of front wheel drive, McPherson strut front suspension and negative scrub radius steering geometry, no increase in wheel track is permitted unless specified by the vehicle manufacturer.
in the case of a motor vehicle fitted with a diagonally split braking system (i.e. one front wheel and opposite rear wheel on same hydraulic circuit), no change in the wheel track dimension is permitted.

Spacers between the wheel and hub are not permitted unless provided by the vehicle manufacturer as original equipment.

Wheel nuts must engage the thread of the wheel stud for at least the same length as the original wheel nut and have the same taper as the mating wheel stud hole.

The stud pattern of the replacement wheel must be the same as the original. Re-drilling wheels, hubs, drums, discs or axle flanges is not permitted. Wheels with slotted stud holes are not permitted.

Aluminium alloy wheels (mags) are acceptable provided they meet the above requirements and are legibly and durably marked to show compliance with one of the following standards:

AS 1638 Australian Standard
DOT Department of Transport USA
JWLT Japanese Light Alloy Wheel Truck and Bus
JWLT Japanese Light Alloy Wheel
JIS Japanese Industry Standard
KBA German TUV Certification
VIA Vehicle Inspection Association Japan



I had a quick look and WA and NSW look to be the same with no larger than 15mm greater diameter.....

Yeah, the guy from Beaurepaires said something like that when I bout my 235/75r15's - that he could only go up one or two, I forget, sizes above what is on the car or card or something - I wasnt sure wtf he was talking about - guess I know now.

So how does everyone get their big tyres fitted if its against ADR regs ? DIY or just friendly tyre shops - cause this guy seemed like he wouldn't do it.

Speaking of the above , A few months ago I went to up my insurance on our Big-Rig and found that all the mods including wider rims and larger tyres no-longer made our Big-rig insurable , so had to change insurance company's

When I got the 3 link coil spring conversion engineered on the feroza the engineer wanted 2 know if i had different rims and tyres, I told him the tyres were bigger (235/75r15) and the rims were standard.
I didn't have any major dramas and got the lot approved

G'Day All,

Everything is legal.......until you get caught

Truth is, pretty much everything is ILLEGAL until you get it engineered. Those 31" tyres need to be engineered if you want to cover your arse.
Same goes for all the good stuff - Body Lift, Suspension Lifts greater than 2", Extended Shackles, ANY modification to ANY suspension mounting point, all custom Control Arms etc should be engineered which usually involves weld X-Rays to conform to ADRs, wheels, tyres, custom front & rear bars must be engineered to ensure adequte ADR's are met ( like pedestrian saftey etc )

Not much fun is it

Reality though - unless you have a HUGE rig with obvious Mods ( AKA Besty !! ) most of your mods will just slip through unnoticed. Even minor accidents are unlikely to cause any alarm. HOWEVER - if you are in the huge misfortune to have a fatal accident of some sort ( ie: your unengineered huge 44" Boggered Feroza plows into a Suzuki Mighty Boy killing the driver ) then fully expect the weight of the law to come down heavily upon you - a manslaughter charge would not be unexpected.....

So if in doubt - check if you can get it engineered before you do those mods.

My advice - once you get to the Bodylift stage of mods I would seriously start to think about getting an engineers certificate to cover ALL suspension / bodylift / wheels & tyres mods.

Later - Mike.H

Andy wrote:Speaking of the above , A few months ago I went to up my insurance on our Big-Rig and found that all the mods including wider rims and larger tyres no-longer made our Big-rig insurable , so had to change insurance company's

Andy you might want to be careful as there's usually a clause in car insurance along the lines of "the vehicle isn't covered if it is in an unroadworthy condition"

Your tyres would make it unroadworthy by WA's road rules (I read them earlier and they specified 15mm oversize too.) Something to think about.

James, any idea how much does it costs to get something simple like a tyre size increase engineered? I've never done anything like that before and have no idea.

I dont know about tyres but 2 get the conversion past the engineer charged me about $200

rocknferoza wrote:I dont know about tyres but 2 get the conversion past the engineer charged me about $200

That's Cheap !!

Usual Engineers Fees are anywhere from $600 - $900 for basic mods !!

"Q55: Can I lower my vehicle?
A: A vehicle may be lowered or raised provided the clearance between the suspension bump stops is not altered by more than 1/3 of that specified by the manufacturer. In addition, the normal relationship between the front and rear suspension heights must not be unduly affected. If the above dimension is exceeded or the vehicle body is raised separate from the chassis an engineer's report may be required.
With the vehicle loaded, the Ground Clearance measured from a flat road surface to any point on the underside of the vehicle must not be less than 100mm."

Who the hell would want to "lower" a vehicle oh, people in hatches and sedans, I get it.

SO does anyone know what 1/3 of the clearance between the suspension bump stops specified by the manufacturer would be in the Feroza? 2inches, 2.5 inches?

Get a ruler and crawl under!

Does anyone know what the diameter of a 195R15 tyre is? Checked my placard today and that size is also listed- I'm hoping it's a larger diameter than 225/70?

murcod wrote:Get a ruler and crawl under!

I know...I'm a lazy bastard Its easier to just type in a question

OK just found the answer 195R15= 205/75R15=215/70R15

murcod wrote:OK just found the answer 195R15= 205/75R15=215/70R15

man.... that really sucks

murcod wrote:Get a ruler and crawl under!

Does anyone know what the diameter of a 195R15 tyre is? Checked my placard today and that size is also listed- I'm hoping it's a larger diameter than 225/70?

195R15 is roughly equivalent to a 205/75R15... it has a slightly larger diameter if comparing same tread patterns on both sizes.

But keep in mind that figures provided for wheel diameters are always rule-of-thumb. They are never exact. For instance, I had road-biassed Uniroyals on my Grand Vitara, and swapped to Cooper Discoverer ATs of the same size, however, the mere fact that it had extra tread meant that what was supposed to be the same sized tyre was in fact bigger, so now my speedo is actually slow.

Take care with that... if they issue tickets for 2kms/h over the speed limit, you really want to check the speedo on a dyno or something.

Oh yeah, and speedo's can be calibrated if you have really huge tyres etc... but it'll cost between $250 and $350 normally! (just FYI)

Cheers,



Luis

WaveCult wrote:

murcod wrote:Get a ruler and crawl under!

Does anyone know what the diameter of a 195R15 tyre is? Checked my placard today and that size is also listed- I'm hoping it's a larger diameter than 225/70?

195R15 is roughly equivalent to a 205/75R15... it has a slightly larger diameter if comparing same tread patterns on both sizes.

But keep in mind that figures provided for wheel diameters are always rule-of-thumb. They are never exact. For instance, I had road-biassed Uniroyals on my Grand Vitara, and swapped to Cooper Discoverer ATs of the same size, however, the mere fact that it had extra tread meant that what was supposed to be the same sized tyre was in fact bigger, so now my speedo is actually slow.

Take care with that... if they issue tickets for 2kms/h over the speed limit, you really want to check the speedo on a dyno or something.

Oh yeah, and speedo's can be calibrated if you have really huge tyres etc... but it'll cost between $250 and $350 normally! (just FYI)

Cheers,



Luis

I got my speedo calibrated to suit my 35s for about $60 at Ringwood Speedometer Services....

Hi All,
You might want to ask your local police about your mods, my son was fined by the police for an unroadworthy car, but done his mods as per the transport dept's book. If they want to book you, they can, and will. He had to pay the fine and a roadworthy inspection, which the car passed.

thats right. the police arent mechanics or engineers. they only have to think that something isnt lkegal, and they can slap you with a unroadworthy. he probably would have got off the fine though, if it passed straight away.

JD wrote:Hi All,
You might want to ask your local police about your mods, my son was fined by the police for an unroadworthy car, but done his mods as per the transport dept's book. If they want to book you, they can, and will. He had to pay the fine and a roadworthy inspection, which the car passed.

Normally writing a letter resolves the issue. If you know you're right, it's the best thing and they're generally pretty reasonable.

My last letter was regarding my Daihatsu Charade which was spotted by some EPA person who claimed exhaust was too loud. The car was all done up but the exhaust was something I hadn't done! I wrote to them, attached a copy of the service papers (it had been serviced weeks before, and the papers indicated exhaust was fine) and they appologised and withdrew the complaint.

Fact is I was probably revving at about 7500rpm when I was spotted, but, the exhaust was bog standard! Don't think it even had a chrome tip at the time!! :o)

I believe a properly written letter may have gotten you out of having to pay both the fine and RWC check. Maybe take some photos of the car, list the mods and relevant legislation and simply prove they are legal.

Well, I'm actually referring to Victorian Police though, I don't know how it is elsewhere around Oz but I would expect it to be similar

*bumping the thread*

By my calcs then 235/70R15 is as big as you can go and stay under the 15mm diameter increase. 225/75R15s would be over the limit (22.5mm increase)

235/70R15 = Increase of 14mm diam. from std
225/75R15 = Increase of 22.5mm diam. (norty)
235/75R15 = Increase of 37.5mm diam. (norty)
215/70R16 = Increase of 11.4mm diam (dont want to reduce tread width though)
205/70R15 = decrease of 28mm (ouch.. my tyres aren't legal!)

I'm looking into getting a set of decent road tyres with limited off-road capability and am currently eyeing 235/70r15s. From the goodyear range, nothing decent seems feroza legal.

I would greatly appreciate and ideas or opinions.

Why get new tyres? See treads below and laugh it up at the 205/70s with special ZTs! (Zero Terrain)




And no.. I dont want to have to hunt down an engineers certificate for this daily driver.

I haven't had any problems with my 31's. Cops have never mentioned them (and I live opposite one!!) even told my insurance company I had a 2.5" suspension lift, 2" body lift and 31" tyres and they covered the lot (Aust 4wd Insurance) for just $31.70 a month

Ferwoaza wrote:I haven't had any problems with my 31's. Cops have never mentioned them (and I live opposite one!!) even told my insurance company I had a 2.5" suspension lift, 2" body lift and 31" tyres and they covered the lot (Aust 4wd Insurance) for just $31.70 a month

Murray... Is that for comprehensive???

Pajeros have a similar problem (although not quite as severe...)

When you do all the sums (and I'm an engineer - I'm pedantic about sums ) 31x10.5 (approximately 265x75/15) are about 6mm outside the 15mm limit for a Paj, but one of the Vic Pajero Club members was told by Victorian authorities that 31" tyres are acceptable on a Paj - suggesting there is some intelligence in the department (although I don't know that he received anything in writing... )

My insurance company wouldn't put anything in writing, but the manager I spoke to stressed that to refuse a claim they would need to prove that the tyres were a major contributing factor to the accident. i.e. if you're stationary at traffic lights and get cleaned up, they have no case; if you roll your 4by while running down the highway on 16psi, having just come from the beach, then they'll all have a good laugh at your claim.

Be reasonable, and you'll probably be OK.

Cheers,

Scott

no offense guys.. but its shyt like these laws that make me glad i'm an american.. i can do whatever i want to my ride... and i got nothing to worry about. thank god! more feroza mods on the way!!!

DeVooluff wrote:*
I'm looking into getting a set of decent road tyres with limited off-road capability and am currently eyeing 235/70r15s. From the goodyear range, nothing decent seems feroza legal (am i calculating right? my maths would shock an 8 year old).


And no.. I dont want to have to hunt down an engineers certificate for this daily driver.

I'm in the same boat- wanted to stay legal and wanted a decent on road tyre with some off road ability. You're right about 235/70r15 being the maximum size increase that's legal, the only problem is the limited availability in Oz of tyres in that size.

After a lot of hunting I discovered all I could get was the Cooper Discoverer A/T. Not the cheapest of tyres (over $210 ea RRP) but I can say they are very impressive on road and a lot better than a H/T off road.

I've got a lot more confidence on gravel roads with no more sliding around corners etc. On road they're unbelieveably quiet and the grip around corners is amazing for an A/T; the ride quality has also improved. I haven't driven with them much in the wet on road, but they seem good in that area too.

Thanks David, those sound like just the ticket and hey... at http://www.coopertires.com.au they've even got a picture of Mike Leyland with one on their website! I'm sold!

They even give you a choice between passenger or light truck configuration at that size. The LTs have a deeper tread, higher loading and slightly reduced section. Which do you have?

DeVooluff wrote:Thanks David, those sound like just the ticket and hey... at http://www.coopertires.com.au they've even got a picture of Mike Leyland with one on their website! I'm sold!

They even give you a choice between passenger or light truck configuration at that size. The LTs have a deeper tread, higher loading and slightly reduced section. Which do you have?

Your tyres look like mine do and I am currently investigating getting good on road tyres with good off road capabilities. I am downsizing my tyres (currently 75R's) to a 70 or something like that, I am also looking at the coopers and will probably get them in the next few months.

DeVooluff wrote:They even give you a choice between passenger or light truck configuration at that size. The LTs have a deeper tread, higher loading and slightly reduced section. Which do you have?

Where did you see the LT construction listed in that size- I just had a look and couldn't find it (in the A/T range anyway)? Mine are the passenger car construction.

I have locked mine up in emergency braking situations (stupid SA drivers pulling out in front of me!?), but I think that's got more to do with the Feroza/me than the tyres. The cornering grip is amazing (no squealing they just hold onto the road) and there's a big ride improvement over my old Bridgestone D682 tyres.

Full specifications are available at;
http://www.coopertires.com.au/tyres/at_specs.htm