Outer Limits 4x4 Board

dieselgas coming up ,well i've finally bitten the bullet and decided to get a diesel gas kit fitted to the 105 na 100 series instead of a turbo ,works out over $1000 cheaper then a turbo with an expected 20%increase in torque and is non invaseive the kit can be taken out and transferred to another vehicle ifi decide to give the 105 a miss and buy something else,atm the moment iam getting 14.5 to 15 lts per 100 klm with the preformance of a snail and they promise 11.5 to 12.5 with a 20% increase in power ,happening tomorrow so i will keep anybody interested informed

please keep us updated!there has been several threads but none have really continued.how much was the kit?good luck hope it works great!

I would be very interested in this as well, can you fit a turbo as well as the gas kit?

Kramer wrote:I would be very interested in this as well, can you fit a turbo as well as the gas kit?

yes, the gaisn are similar in adition to the turbo so basically around 20hp and 20% torque gain

biggest thing however is burn rate up to 95% from 65% so econamy is excelent and service intervals can be extended to up to 20k kms as the burn rate means far lees carbon buildup in the oil

are you having a dyno text before and after?

would be interesting to see the results.

bump...

because we'd like to hear more about how its coming along.

Toy80Diesel wrote:bump...

because we'd like to hear more about how its coming along.

I think i will be getting done as soon as my SAS is finished

well is on ,still early days as to total the benefits,but heres the story so far
had the system fitted in a day ,drove to bris early morn 300 or so klm and back homeby 8.30 that nite
left with fulltanks ,and just the driver ,average speed 90-100 klm/hr, and the usual city driving,fuel usage51 lts for 370 klm
return trip with diesel gas ,with driver and passenger ,200 kg load(shopping)plus gas setup,speed ave 100 to 110/115
fuel usage diesel 44 lts ,gas 9.5 lts
in $ terms the cost of fuel was almost excatly the same
in preformance the car is certainly easier to drive,downhill there is more runon,infact instead of just lifting your foot of the pedal to slow down ,you have to start braking ,uphill ,well i didnt have to change from 5 th all the way home after i left the city(100 klm zones)
the advantages at this early stage
totally confused service station attendents ,they cant workout you buying diesel and gas for the same car.today the servo bloke was looking for the person who had filled up diesel at pump 4 ,while i was topping up gas at pump 1(honest john ,thats me)
more power
i'am sure there are fuel advatages,not sure how much at this stage
more responsive
all the eco hype and the website stuff
the disadvantages at this stage
my wallet
big cloud of black smoke at 2500/3000 revs( just take an oil change and a couple of tankfuls of juice through the system to fix that hopefully)
hey wheres my 11.5 lts/100 klm ????/

so thats it ,my forefinger worn out and internet time gone
thanks sjp

How much did it cost you?

sjp wrote:well is on ,still early days as to total the benefits,but heres the story so far
had the system fitted in a day ,drove to bris early morn 300 or so klm and back homeby 8.30 that nite
left with fulltanks ,and just the driver ,average speed 90-100 klm/hr, and the usual city driving,fuel usage51 lts for 370 klm
return trip with diesel gas ,with driver and passenger ,200 kg load(shopping)plus gas setup,speed ave 100 to 110/115
fuel usage diesel 44 lts ,gas 9.5 lts
in $ terms the cost of fuel was almost excatly the same
in preformance the car is certainly easier to drive,downhill there is more runon,infact instead of just lifting your foot of the pedal to slow down ,you have to start braking ,uphill ,well i didnt have to change from 5 th all the way home after i left the city(100 klm zones)
the advantages at this early stage
totally confused service station attendents ,they cant workout you buying diesel and gas for the same car.today the servo bloke was looking for the person who had filled up diesel at pump 4 ,while i was topping up gas at pump 1(honest john ,thats me)
more power
i'am sure there are fuel advatages,not sure how much at this stage
more responsive
all the eco hype and the website stuff
the disadvantages at this stage
my wallet
big cloud of black smoke at 2500/3000 revs( just take an oil change and a couple of tankfuls of juice through the system to fix that hopefully)
hey wheres my 11.5 lts/100 klm ????/

so thats it ,my forefinger worn out and internet time gone
thanks sjp

me thinks the money would have been better spent on an injector overhaul and a little tuning, which might have got you down into the 12 - 13l/100km range and therefore cheaper per km than the diesel and lpg you have to buy now. If you have clouds of smoke in the midrange, injector servicing will almost definitely improve torque and economy markedly.

it also sounds from those numbers that you're going through way too much LPG - all you've really done is replace some diesel with LPG rather than the LPG acting as a catalyst. if you have black smoke, you definitely don't have anywhere near full combustion of your fuel.

LPG fumigation on indirect injected diesels always nets very marginal gains both in power and economy - I'm betting you can't really "feel" a seat of the pants horsepower improvement and your fuel useage is about 5% worse! You don't have a dyno sheet to prove any power gain, but if you did, and the dyno operator were honest, you would probably see torque improvements in the 0 to 5% range across the rpm range. If you were given the option of a money back guarantee, take advantage of it now. It does not take "a few tankfuls" for a system like this to work - it should work from the moment it's installed and tuned.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I want you to either get your money's worth or get your money back. $/kW, $/Nm a turbo is a far better investment and is every bit as portable as LPG.

cheers
DD

just under $4000,but that it. any future mapping changes ,eg if i want gas delivery at higher revs free . the turbo was coming in at $56oo with a pyrometer fuel reg etc

dumbdance the car s only done 30,000,do you really think the injectors need doing already,the smoke is a worry , he said its unburnt fuel (at 3000 rpm ???) and also cleaning soot from the exhust,i'll put a tank through it and see what happens ,there is a return if iam not satisfied also i might put it on the dyno to see what its producing

sjp wrote:just under $4000,but that it. any future mapping changes ,eg if i want gas delivery at higher revs free . the turbo was coming in at $56oo with a pyrometer fuel reg etc

you can get a turbo installed and tuned for not a lot over $3000 including exhaust. you don't NEED a permanently installed pyro, as long as one is used to tune the beast initially. Fuel pump doesn't really need touching unless you're looking at big boost + intercooling.

sjp wrote:dumbdance the car s only done 30,000,do you really think the injectors need doing already,the smoke is a worry , he said its unburnt fuel (at 3000 rpm ???) and also cleaning soot from the exhust,i'll put a tank through it and see what happens ,there is a return if iam not satisfied also i might put it on the dyno to see what its producing

it's possible that the injectors need attention at 30,000km - unlikely but possible - depsnds on what sort of a life it's had. noticiable smoke at any revs is a worry and should be investigated. At 30,000km you shouldn't have a lot of soot in the exhaust. If you are going to the dyno make sure you test it with and without the LPG turned on - if there is not the promised return then I would be asking for my $ back. $4000 is a lot to pay if you're still paying the same at the pump and there is no significant power increase.

good luck with it!

cheers

DD

Got mine installed for $2000.
Mine is not working at the moment as i am waiting for parts. They are replacing the entire kit for something completely different as the one i have keeps failing.
It should be here this week and i will let you guys know as soon as i have some figures on fuel.
My advice for now is hold off on getting lpg fumigation; at least until they have worked out the kinks which they told me they had

LuxyBoy wrote:Got mine installed for $2000.
Mine is not working at the moment as i am waiting for parts. They are replacing the entire kit for something completely different as the one i have keeps failing.
It should be here this week and i will let you guys know as soon as i have some figures on fuel.
My advice for now is hold off on getting lpg fumigation; at least until they have worked out the kinks which they told me they had

$2k is a differnt kit to the $4k one, the $4k one. the one we do has had plenty of testing etc and is used extensivly in trucks in europe and more and more here in aus.

Tiny wrote:

LuxyBoy wrote:Got mine installed for $2000.
Mine is not working at the moment as i am waiting for parts. They are replacing the entire kit for something completely different as the one i have keeps failing.
It should be here this week and i will let you guys know as soon as i have some figures on fuel.
My advice for now is hold off on getting lpg fumigation; at least until they have worked out the kinks which they told me they had

$2k is a differnt kit to the $4k one, the $4k one. the one we do has had plenty of testing etc and is used extensivly in trucks in europe and more and more here in aus.

Yeah yours would be the one that is computer controlled but being a 3L with no computer sh!t on it means i don't need that. I wasn't knocking the more expensive stuff just not necessary for my application.

Tiny you should have an idea then about(improved!!!) preformance figures for a n/a 100series and why it blowing black smoke when i put the foot down a bit ,if its unburnt fuel thats probaly where my economy savings are going -out the exhust ,getting dyno next week which will give me a clearer picture
luxboy i was talking to an installer here that does your manual type and he had to have the car back 3 times because a part kept failing ,that why i went for the more expensive option , iam sure the mapping can be adjusted to cut out the smoke ,but as dumbdance suggested how much can preformance be improved for a n/a motor,figures for a turbo are guite impressive

sjp wrote:Tiny you should have an idea then about(improved!!!) preformance figures for a n/a 100series and why it blowing black smoke when i put the foot down a bit ,if its unburnt fuel thats probaly where my economy savings are going -out the exhust ,getting dyno next week which will give me a clearer picture
luxboy i was talking to an installer here that does your manual type and he had to have the car back 3 times because a part kept failing ,that why i went for the more expensive option , iam sure the mapping can be adjusted to cut out the smoke ,but as dumbdance suggested how much can preformance be improved for a n/a motor,figures for a turbo are guite impressive

Could you tell us what the dyno says once you done it please

yes, the dyno info would be great to have and also is the rest of the car standard? just so we can get a clear picture.

Thanks in advance

...how much can preformance be improved for a n/a motor...

it's not so much that it's not a turbo motor, it's that it's indirect injected, so (and I'm fuzzy on the theory here but it's something along these lines) you end up with a situation where instead of the diesel spray, LPG and air all mixing together and provinding a clean, controlled flame front throughout the combustion chamber, you get the initial diesel flame igniting some of the LPG so that (a) your air is robbed of some oxygen that should have gone to burning the diesel (b) the LPG can no longer act as a catalyst for the diesel burn as it is turned to water and carbon dioxide before it's meant to - the result is diesel smoke because the diesel can't burn as it should and a potential loss of power if the energy available from the burned LPG is less that the energy that should have been liberated from the Diesel fuel. This is how it has been explained to me, but I'm buggered if I know how anyone can tell you what's happening in a combustion chamber. sounds plausible?

Anyway so much for theory - I have tried home brew LPG fumigation with a 1HZ motor and it made some very small but noticeable gains at low rpm, but there was bugger all gain at highway speeds, and, like you observe, smoke - we fiddled with more gas, less gas etc etc (using a acetylene regulator to increase/decrease LPG and a solenoid valve to switch it on/off). have yet to try it on my factory turbo 80 series but might give it a crack this weekend just to see how it goes.

Mine smoked for about a month then went clean. i have noticed that driving a diesel up and down hills there is a point where you start over fueling. Recent trip to Rover Park i started backing off the right foot a little and i was getting same power with less smoke. This was easily monitored with my pyro. Going down hill i accellerated until the temp stopped dropping anything passed that and it smoked. Going up hill foot to the floor and back off a bit until you feel power loss, right foot down a little more and she's apples; running about 550 degrees smeemed to be about right on flat and uphill for the most power.

Just my observations

My LPG registered 20 percent power increase if and when it works

LuxyBoy wrote: i have noticed that driving a diesel up and down hills there is a point where you start over fueling.

only if you don't have an altitude compensator on your fuel pump, and then only when you get over about 300m elevation should any smoke become noticeable. if you get smoke going up hills all the time, your pump is out of adjustment and/or your injectors need servicing.

My LPG registered 20 percent power increase if and when it works

I'm sure I already asked you this, but where's your dyno sheet? while you look for it, I'll go install another custom turbo for someone for under $1500 with a reliable 50% power increase, no smoke, and no need to fill up with two different fuels

pity i live so far away Dumbdance ,anyway will post results of the dyno in the morning,i agree luxboy the pedal doesent need to be pushed as far to get better preformance ,in fact for mine anything over 2500 rpm -2800 rpm doesnt gain much in power

$1500 Thats just teasing
The printer on the dyno was broken, once i get the gas fixed i will be asking for a printout and if they cannot give me one they can pay for it to get done somewhere else.

dumbdunce wrote:I'm sure I already asked you this, but where's your dyno sheet? while you look for it, I'll go install another custom turbo for someone for under $1500 with a reliable 50% power increase, no smoke, and no need to fill up with two different fuels

So how far is Seven Hills from Melboure??

What about just the parts sent down to melb?

Toy80Diesel wrote: So how far is Seven Hills from Melboure??

What about just the parts sent down to melb?

about 950km. parts: go to importer/wrecker - get turbo - around $500. go to Enzed/Pirtek, get a handful of fittings for oil and water plumbing - around $50. go to wreckers, get half a dozen inlet elbows and stuff to join it all together = $50. go to bunnings and get a $200 stick welder. go to steel supplier and get a bunch of bits to make/modify manifold with. go home, whack it all together, bingo you've got a turbo. if you've got $ left over, drop into your local exhaust shop for a 3" straight through mandrel bent system.

since it's 'custom' it's pretty difficult to do a system without having the vehicle there to work on.

Just a thought - I remember reading somewhere about some blokes that put a few litres of unleaded in the tank when they filled up with Diesel, its supposedley does what LPG on diesel is supposed to do , help burn more of the diesel in the cylinder.

Now not sure how safe this is but if it is OK to do this or if it achieves the same results this would be far more economical ...

anyone done or is doing this?

well the motor didnt go bang with the dyno ,even though it blew enough black smoke for me to expect a visit from the EPA the car is running quite abit rich ,about 14.3 air to fuel ratio should be in the range of 18,hence the over fueling /black smoke (blew some with the gas off)blew even more with the gas on .
the web site for diesel gas states for a n/a 105 l/cruiser
standard 76.6 hp mine 79.2
with gas 91.1 mine with gas 88.4
% increase 18.92% % increase 11.61%
so there you go ,iam going to have the fuel turned down a bit which could reduce the power ,but first i talk to dieselgas for their thoughts ,suggestions from jarretts (dyno) is to change the air filter to a k&n and fit a 21/2 inch exhust dyno chart enclosed hopefully
iam sure the motor can tweaked to give me more gain how much i dont know

just did a search and read your reply on k&n filters dumbdance ,i tend to agree with that so will scratch a k&n off the list ,besides as the lcool site suggests i could get the filter for the turbo motor ,which is bigger ,more surface area,instead ofthe n/a one
i also have the air/fuel mix figures below if anybodys interested ,mumbo jumbo to me