Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I'm doing a restoration and have the opportunity to grab a Salisbury diff - not sure yet what the ratio is but at this point I am trying to reason out the argument for and against the conversion.

1 - Some people seem to say no go - you have to up the gearing of the front diff to match the rear so it's allot of fiddle.

2 - I have a Holden 6 in my 2a and so upping the gearing might be a bit better for my engine without spending on the HRTC conversion straight away.

3 - Arguments against a Sals swap are issues of losing clearance among other issues above as well as re-welding the spring mounts, prop and uj fiddle etc.

4. Some quarters have suggested leaving my diffs and axles stock and just going for the HRTC conversion eventually and or just beefing up the half shafts and UJ's and Prop shafts to get the same result.

Whats the word, is it a dud swap or is it worth doing?

Thanks, Simon.

I did 1 for a bloke on a 2a, it was a very simple conversion.
He was driving his to and from work for years and also used it for a shooting rig out west, never had a problem.
As for clearance, there is no substitute for strength in the drive line, so run slightly bigger tyres (this will help with your low gearing). Seen several landies on the tracks with them and nobody has said they want to swap back!


Hope this helps,Carl

I bought my 2a shorty with a Salisbury in the rear. Like the front it was already a 4.7 ratio though which I thought the series salisburys came out with.

I would do the swap, also look at putting S3 24spline shafts in the front as well.

What holden conversion do you have? I have the rod shop one fitted - this conversion places the whole drivetrain on an angle. Check yours out, if it's dodgy correct for the propshaft angle when the mounts are re-welded.

The extra weight of the sals isn't that much and if clearance is an issue, you could always shave the bottom. (i have done this - Its a major PITA, lots of work - but at least its a no cost mod)..

Simon

PS - how many farkin Simons are there in the rover section ????????

popeye wrote:PS - how many farkin Simons are there in the rover section ????????

At least 3

Thanks gents!

I've always thought that it was an excellent conversion from what I had read and heard from others over the years but I'm getting a bit of static over the choice from another guy who says ...

I've already went through the 3.54 conversion route with a series LR and I can tell you, you will be disappointed with the gearing. All the gears are affected, high/low.... We have to remember, LR did their math when they built our vehicles and had the gearing right, from the get go.

You mentioned that you want to install a Salsbury axle, well I think that is a great rear suspension upgrade for an 88, but what I tried to explain, is that you better know what gears are in them. Series 3 109's had 4.70, but the series 3 Stage 1 V8's had 3.54 gears. On the outside, they look the same. A simple test is to turn the tire one full revolution and count how many times the diff pinion turns. The reason why I'm expressing caution here, is that a friend bought a Salsbury axle, the seller claimed it was something that it wasn't....just know what your getting.

The guy is Canadian and I was trying to explain why an HRTC conversion is preferable over an OD with a Holden donk - but being Canadian he doesn't understand that higher gearing is BEST for a Holden donk and if I go with the Sals he reckons ...

If I was in your shoes, I would go with the Salsbury rear axle, 4.70 gears, with an overdrive installed. But I can see that your not interested in them (OD), so then go with the HRTC, it'll affect the vehicle the least, especially compared to a full 3.54 gear change.

So can anyone explain to me - cause I'm new to this diff stuff - if I install a rear Sals what I have to do to the standard SWB front diff?

Thanks, Simon.

G'day Si ... ( another one! )

popeye wrote:I would do the swap, also look at putting S3 24spline shafts in the front as well.

So is that the only change I need to make to the front axle/diff set-up to safely run the rear sals?

What holden conversion do you have? I have the rod shop one fitted - this conversion places the whole drivetrain on an angle. Check yours out, if it's dodgy correct for the propshaft angle when the mounts are re-welded.

It's a Red 186 and it's been there for years, was there when I bought it so have no idea who did it and how it was done. I am lifting the engine and tranny out this friday actually ... I'm not sure I'd know how to set the drivetrain like yours though - any suggestions or advice would be apreciated.

The extra weight of the sals isn't that much and if clearance is an issue, you could always shave the bottom. (i have done this - Its a major PITA, lots of work - but at least its a no cost mod)..

Yes, I've seen a few peoples pics of this around the net ... seems a little like butchery to me but if it's done well and painted over I reckon it might be ok.

Thanks again, Si.

As mentioned, the leaf spring/drum braked Sals came in 4.7 ratio from an SIII or 3.54 from a Stage 1.

If you put a 4.7 in your car you wont have to touch the front, but if you put in the 3.54 ratio, you will need to get an early Rangie front diff ( so your diffs match).

I bought a SIII 4 cyl petrol 109 a few years ago which had a 3.54 Sals in the back but a 4.7 diff in the front . The engine didn't have the herbs to push the higher gearing of the 3.54, so I replaced the Sals with a 4.7 and all was good ( slow, but good ).

Bruce.

Ahhh Bruce!

Sweet mate, thats all I needed to know! So essentially no change to the front diff and the sals will just slap right on with no hassles; apart from the usual adjustments. Anything else I need to know about the conversion - hints, tips or tricks?

BTW* I'm talking about the Sals on the 88" 2a not the 109" ... you are too right?

Ta, Si.

It probably wont be as straight forward as that. As far as I understand the LWB which is what the Salisbury comes out of has outboarded springs and so you may need to weld on some new spring perches to suit. Also the Salisbury I'm pretty sure has a longer pinion than the Rover diff, and so may need to have a tailshaft made/modified to suit.

I'm pretty sure mine had the standard brake MC though - but thats not a definate.

G'day Slunster,

As I said above mate, the main thing I was worried about was matching the gearing without having to bollocks around with the front diff. I'm well aware that It will require re-welding the spring brackets on the Sals further inboard and the prop will require shortening ... I'm not keen to do that job DIY as I have heard you need to have the two bits match perfectly lest you end up with terrible balance and judder ... but apart from all that - will there be any difference in performance once everything is bolted up and proper?

Mate I've done it. and it works well, ie, you wont notice it because you'll stop busting axles!

You have to Tig weld the spring brackets onto a different place on the axle. my engineer just measured when he cut them off the old IIA housing.

You'll also need to shorten your drive shaft. do this last, just fit the Sals and then measure from the tip of the centres of each flange.

All the brake stuff just bolts on.

You will have trouble with the shorter drive shaft so if you have longer army type shackles it will shake itself to bits in about a week, so you will have to wedge the diff up!

As I said i did it and it was great!

Hope this helps.

G'day Mr.

I don't have army shackles mate, no ... I had contemplated it at one point but I am hoping to do Ben ( Isuzurovers ) custom springs job on the rover also to get added articulation ... hope he turns up on forum soon since he has a sals on his 2a truck also I think and has done the shave job also.

Tell me, did you get your engineer to re-weld the brackets on the Sals for you? I can't weld so I will need someone to do the job for me. Can you explain in more detail ( any pics????!!! ) how to go about wedging the diff nose up and what angle it should be at? I think I read others saying that tilting the nose of the sals isn't always a good idea?

More info sil vous plais!!!

By the way, did you do the conversion to a shorty?

Best, Simon.

Simon, I don't see a problem with doing a sals conversion on a shorty if it is done properly. I know a few people with sals diffs in shorties, and all had to tilt the diff nose up slightly to cure propshaft problems. Fitting army shackles to a civvie-chassied SWB should help the diff angle.

I fitted a sals to my 109, which had previously had the spring pads welded on for a SWB (has both sets). The SWB pads were welded on a few degrees out from the LWB ones - Which is probably a better idea than using wedges. I shaved my salisbury, but only a minimal shave - welded the drain plug in and then ground all the excess metal off and sanded everything smooth so it can slide over rocks easily. I have retained all the original bolts, and shaves and strengthened the cover plate, but it still weeps slightly (this is a problem with shaved salisburies/D60's, but if you get a diff ring or complete cover from the US you shoudn't have this problem.

I found the shave made a big difference. There was one hill at a 4x4 park that a friend with a double-locked 110 on 33's (unshaved salisbury) tried and grounded out on his diff. I was only on 32's at the time (rear locker only) but he lent me his tyres to try and I sailed up without a problem. He put his tyres back on and tried again and still couldn't get up.

PM me if you have any suspension questions.

EDIT - personally I would never fit 3.54 diffs to a series landie as you then have a terrible crawl ratio. The same goes in part for a HRTC as the ones I have seen have about 39:1 - about the same as a stock LR. I have suffix B low range gears in my 109, so have 49:1 1st low. You cannot fit suffix B gears to a HRTC. But if the stock low range is enough for you then everything should be fine.

Hey Ben!

Long time mate and good to hear from you at last - I actually posted something in your direction on the longfields thread a few down on the front page explaining my current situation ... longish story. Finally am lifting out the engine and gearbox on friday with a mate who is doing a 109 restoration almost the same as mine. I hope to get the chassis hot dipped and perhaps the bulkhead also if I can bolt it to a jig first.

I have saved all the info from our last chat about the suspension but when going over the info there were a few more questions I had ... if we can do e-mail that may be easier - shoot me your new addy at psi_fan@yahoo.com

Have you got any pics of your sals set up by the way? It's tough to get a mental idea of whats being described sometimes both in regard to the tilt, how much to tilt and the use of wedges etc. Someone posted above saying the Sals + Mil shackles would be a bad idea and cause the whole drive train to shake itself stupid!?

Best, Si.

Si - can you post some pics of your engine mounts?

I would find out the angle of your drivetrain before you pull the donk and box out. Could be of some use when welding the spring mounts back on.
Does the prop shaft pass through a crossmember like the 109" ?' if so how much clearance do you have?

Also i like the idea of fitting longer shackles to tilt the pinion up, I was looking to fit wedges but will look at doing this to fix mine up. Don't be to worried about oiling issues with a tilted pinion - i don't think the amount of tilt involved would be any issue.

Fitting 24sp axles in the front is for strength only.

Simon



edit -

I have saved all the info from our last chat about the suspension but when going over the info there were a few more questions I had ... if we can do e-mail that may be easier - shoot me your new addy at psi_fan@yahoo.com

WTF - share the tech around. The planet will be a so much nicer place.

Hey Si!

My drivetrain bypasses beneath the PTO hole in the chassis mid section and goes clear beneath and to the right of it slightly when looking forward. Here's a few pics ... you can see the trajectory of the prop running from the back of the tranmission brake.




Here's another good angle ...



And another ...







Overkill?

EDIT - I have to find out about the extended shackles with the diff nose angle thing myself!

Si,

I forgot about pics of my engine mounts, not sure I have any but I'll go through my pics and see what I can find.

Ok, this is crap but it's all I have right now ...

If you have a look through the front crossmember, where the hand starting crank goes through - does this line up with the centreline of the crank pully ? I'm not 100% sure that the original landie motors did, but if so you can use this to guage wether the holden mtr is raised.

Hey Si.

Had a look mate and the engine sits well above where the crank pully would be ... I assume you are talking about the lower rotater disc of the fan belt pully? Mine sits well above the front PTO hole.

Hi,

Yes I did do the Sals on a shorty. I got the brackets TIG welded on. Apparently that's the best way to do it and most good engineering shops will grind the old ones off the rover diff and weld them onto your sals for not much cash.

Secondly, if you take the diff out of an old s111 then it will have the same gearing. If you by poor luck end up with different ratios and the welding is all done set then strip the rover front down because they are simpler, the sals needs to be spread to get the diff out and it's not really DIY!.

Mine worked great once i took the longer shackles OFF. They gave the rover too much lift and they don't change the camber enough to stop the uni's roaring on decelleration. They also push the pinion forward slightly when the diff rolls forward!

I would fit the diff and see how you go. If there's a driveshaft problem then you can wedge. The wedges are machined leaf springs and you'll need to do trial and error, but two of my friends converted when they saw mine and neither had problems and neither needed wedges.

Also you MUST get the driveshaft professionally shortened. It is only about $50 bucks and is a lot cheaper than a wayward shaft at 80 clicks.

It's peace of mind mate, a shorty will find it a lot harder to bust a sals axle.

mrapocalypse wrote: the sals needs to be spread to get the diff out and it's not really DIY!.

Actually this is really a myth. I have removed and refitted a few salisbury centres and all came out easily, just using 2 tyre levers and no casing spreader - with a soft hammer used to refit the centre. Swapping a sals centre is easily done DIY, the only hard bit is that you need to set up the pinion depth and backlash which takes some skill/experience. There are step by step guides showing how to do it on pirate4x4.com (for a Dana 60 but that is essentially the same diff).

I find it strange that you needed to remove your extended shackles. Were your spring pads welded on at the same angle as the LWB ones?

That's a good question actually, I never really checked that they'd welded the pads on in the right spot. So there you go that's another trap for young players, I've sold the IIA now and I think it's probably a pile of rust because the boys that bought it lived on Fraser island!

SWB IIA _ Army cut guards, wide tyres, bad shade of yellow with toyota roll bar and army jerry can racks. Seen it anyone?

Thanks all ...

Well there are a bunch of people who seem to think doing the conversion is pretty much a waste of space. I have asked about this on a few fora to get various responses and there is definately a school who say keep the stock rover rears and just buy new halfshafts or strenghtened halfshafts. I guess I should ask the question ... what are the real world benefits of doing the conversion vs the cons?

the Sals is a lot stronger than the rover and it's overall a cheaper and easier conversion than most other options.

IMHO

Here's a few other thoughts ...

In my opinion there's no need to do it. The Rover axle is strong enough for an 88 even with a V8 in it. Good enough for a range Rover Classic.................. Lot of messing around for a big gain in unsprung weight. Keep it standard and use the money for another safety related repair/modification.

or ...

IMHO...stick with the original diff and get a set of NEW half shafts, they cost about £20 for the long one and £16 for the short one, over here. AND buy a spare set to travel with you, they don't take up much room, you can pack them in a length of pastic sink waste pipe. And then, I'd rather change a half shaft in the baking sun, then be messing around with a Salisbury...

There's surely more to fitting the Sals than it just being a tougher diff, no?

The cons are extra weight, loss of small clearance, more complex for repair etc ... what are the pro's besides a thicker case?

I or my father have broken 2x halfshafts and 1x diff pinion in his IIA 88" which has a 2.25P and doesn't get abused (but does get used for its intended purpose).

You seem to have gotten the anti-salisbury replies on British forums. Many of those guys seem to be anti-salisbury - but bear in mind, many of them are still running 6.50 or 7.00 tyres on SWBs!!! And bear in mind that the british kept using obsolete spiral bevel diff designs (rover diff) when the rest of the world had moved on to hypoid many years ago (salisbury diff and every other diff in the world is a hypoid design).

If it was my vehicle I would do the toy conversion to the rover axle casings, like Mercedesrover did on pirate4x4. But to do this properly you need to buy two axles and two drive flanges from Jacmac. You would also need to do the front to keep the same ratio. I will probably eventually do this to my father's 88" IIA. But I will probably do it on the cheap using LSD centres, modified stock axles and homemade drive flanges, but this takes a lot of machining.

The only disadvantages of the salisbury are the weight and size of the centre. The advantages are cost, simplicity and strength.

Just put it in already

Don't listen to the LR Nazis, FFS how is having to take spare axles when wheeling better than swapping in a proper diff and much stronger axles ?


Also don't forget you are running a Holden Inline six - much more power and torque than the rover V8.

Ben,

Tis true mate, I was actually quite surprised by the lack of enthusiasm about this swap and I have tried to explain the Holden 6 thing to Europeans and Yanks but they don't quite get it. When you say the advantages are simplicity and cost ... the nay sayers seem to claim the exact opposite citing that if anything goes wrong it's a more costly diff for parts and replacement and amore complex not simple diff compared to the rover one to work on.

Buggered if I know ... though I am keen to do it - but when people piss on the idea you stop and think.

popeye wrote:Just put it in already

Bloody ball breaker ... I'm doing research here!

Don't listen to the LR Nazis, FFS how is having to take spare axles when wheeling better than swapping in a proper diff and much stronger axles ? Also don't forget you are running a Holden Inline six - much more power and torque than the rover V8.

As I said to Ben above, your right and I have tried to explain this to the Brits and Yanks but they don't get it ... they don't get why an HRTC is better for a Holden 6 than an Overdrive either and keep trying to recommend an OD instead ... regardless of my explanations.