Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2006 9:53 pm**

got a strange problem with clutch had new clutch installed 6 weeks ago in gu 3ltr every thing going fine until towed camper trailer no probs on road but when it comes to positioning trailer reversing to position the clutch goes to the pack cannot change gears even pumping clutch no help turn car of and it gets better on retry any idea ?

Posted: **Tue Apr 25, 2006 10:54 pm**

Try bleeding clutch slave cylinder and master cylinder. Just a thought

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:02 am**

There are a few different possible causes for this.

One would be that some other component or object like a spring or piece of bearing or something has gotten in between the flywheel and the clutch plate.

It's also possible that your clutch plate has shit itself and there are pieces of it between the flywheel and the unbroken part of the clutch plate - filling the space so it can't disengage. These two are more likely if you are fairly sure that the towing contributed to the problem, and especially if you had to abuse the clutch a bit when towing.

I doubt this is it though - it's sort of a worst case scenario. More likely it's to do with the hydraulic fluid - have you checked the reservoir level? If it's dropped too low that's probably it.

Or, could you possibly be leaking fluid?

Next bet after that, master or slave.

Good luck.

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:26 pm**

the problem only occures when towing under load fluid levels are fine and no problem driving normally or offroad in 4wd

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:28 pm**

What sort of clutch? Might be peesweek pressure plate or farkall material on driven plate

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:47 pm**

the clutch was from repco driven plates ok as car has only 120000 ks on it i replaced clutch as it kept slipping to many helping hands on fraser they all drove 100 series then some low range mud work later and that was the end off it i checked it out when mec had it out only clutch plate worn out

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:48 pm**

Take it back to the dude that fitted and tell him to fix it.

Posted: **Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:56 pm**

Does it smell at all? Burning smell, hot smell?

Posted: **Thu Apr 27, 2006 7:45 am**

no smell just no clutch unable to get it in or out off gear

Posted: **Thu Apr 27, 2006 11:20 am**

Maybe the clutch fork isn't in properly where it slips in behind thrust bearing. Thinking of which did you replace thrust bearing and spiggot bearing aswell as pressure plate and driven plate(clutch plate)?

Pull the rubber boot off where the lever mechanism goes into the bell housing and see if its pulling thrust bearing towards pressure plate when ya mate presses foot on clutch pedal. If its not aligned properly, just unbolt lever, re-align and bolt up!

I've never heard of this happening before but its good to check everything before you go completely mad

Mec could've been in a bit of a hurry and f'ked up last bit of a c

t of a job

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2006 4:04 pm**

finally got car to mechnic with a loaded trailer. had to pick his jaw off the ground when he tried to reverse up slight incline as per usual no clutch under load unable to get it in or out of gear no amount off clutch pumping would fix problem. rang local clutch expert was told was proberly dual mass fly wheel and should have done full conversion. mechnic has no idea and says its down to trial and error repairs . new dual mass fly wheel $2200 plus install . full conversion to remove dual mass fly wheel $1950 plus install . the new clutch installed was from clutch industries its a all terrian supposed to be ducks nuts for fwd . any ideas very expensive trial and error which may not fix

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2006 5:18 pm**

There is no way that I could charge a customer twice to do the same job.
The old saying goes " the first time the customer pays, then @#$%^"
You booked the vehicle in to have the clutch repaired and it isn't fixed so you want it fixed correctly.
You are lible for the extra parts, ie flywheel.
J Top

Posted: **Sat May 06, 2006 8:09 pm**

I agree. You've already paid to have it fixed. It's not your job to diagnose the problem, that's why you take it to a mechanic.

I don't know what they're trying to bs you with the flywheel problem? I'm no expert on the things though, but i'd be sceptical. And i'll be buggered before i handed over $4150

Posted: **Sun May 07, 2006 10:01 pm**

theres no way im paying any more money for a guess repair that may not fix the problem. im hopping some one has had the same problem or could give me the name of some one who knows this set up as i said the local clutch expert ? wont touch nissan clutches unless your willing to do conversion

Posted: **Sun May 07, 2006 11:07 pm**

I'm no expert and don't pretend to be, but it seems strange to me that it only happens in reverse. The flywheel and clutch are spinning the same way regardless of what gear it's in. To me this suggests that it's an outside influence when in reverse that is jamming the clutch - ie. maybe something that is changing the angle of the input shaft and thus warping the clutch plate when in reverse under load.

Question for those in the know to answer. If the spigot bush is damaged / missing, would this allow the gearbox input shaft to move, and would the torque of the gearbox in reverse (incline and trailer) allow it to move so far that the clutch plate would twist and jam when the pressure plate is opened?

Just my conspiracy theory.

Posted: **Sun May 07, 2006 11:33 pm**

Have you got under the car and got someone to push the clutch in to see how far the fork is being push in. What the hell is a dual mass fly wheel.If it is a direct replacemeant for that model, I cant seeing it being Pressure plate,clutch plate or even flywheel a problem. Even though it only does it in reverse it may be just an adjustmeant. When it is working, how far do let the pedal out before the car just moves? My Gq did the same thing when it got hot. Could bearly get it into gear or out of gear some times. I ended up screwing the bolt out about 10mm on the foot pedal so it would give more travel to the clucth fork. It fixed the problem. Maybe have a look at that. May work.

Posted: **Mon May 08, 2006 12:59 am**

marko wrote:What the hell is a dual mass fly wheel.

This turns out to be an interesting question... from a google search:

A dual mass flywheel, or DMF, is made up of a primary and secondary flywheel with a series of torsion springs and cushions. There is a friction ring located between the inner and outer flywheel that allows the 2 flywheels to slip. This feature saves the transmission from damage when torque loads exceed the vehicle rating of the transmission. The friction ring can then wear out if excessive loads are applied.

The DMF also has a center support bearing that carries the load between the inner and the outer flywheel. The leading failure of the bearing is vibration caused by misalignment of the pressure plate and the DMF dowel pins during clutch replacement. Lastly, you have the damper springs. The # 1 cause of failure is engine run-ability problems. A poor running engine, if not attended to, will change the resonant frequency of the engine, causing the engine to run in an undesirable RPM range. When this happens, it overworks the damper springs, causing premature failure.

The function of the DMF is to isolate the torsion crankshaft spikes created by high compression ratios. If you can isolate the torsion spikes, you will eliminate the possibility of damage to the transmission gear teeth. The DMF isolates the frequency below the normal engine operating rpm's during startup and shutdown.

How do you diagnose a DMF during clutch replacement? You can first check the friction plate. This is done with the flywheel installed and the clutch removed. Partially install two pressure plate bolts into the flywheel 180 degrees from each other. Use a bar and try to rotate the outer portion of the flywheel in either direction. You should feel approximately 8-11 degrees of movement before the friction ring engages.

You can also make this inspection with a torque turn method. You will need to make an adapter to bolt to the outer half of the DME The specifications are as follows:

Ford 6.9/7.3 L with 11-inch clutch-425 ft-lbs.

Ford 6.9/7.3 L with 12-inch clutch-425 ft-lbs.

GM 6.5 L-440 ft-lbs.

There have been some reports from GM and Ford of the DMF causing ill-running problems prior to 1994. You may experience erratic idle, or possibly no throttle response for five or more seconds when starting the vehicle.

If you do get a dual mass flywheel in for repair, it is not advised to replace with a single mass flywheel. This can cause drivetrain noise and possible transmission failure. Yes it will be cheaper, but the end result could be more costly for you and your customer.

I'd never heard of this before.

Info is from http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/ ... _n14890682

Now that I have read that, I am wondering if the initial rescue efforts that led to the clutch replacement might have trashed the DMF...? This might not be visible if you didn't actually dismantle the DMF and check in between..? Dunno.

It sounds like a crappy thing to put in a heavy four-wheel drive though. Do we know if this vehicle actually has a DMF though?

Jason

Posted: **Mon May 08, 2006 11:44 am**

Surfs have these and it is recommended to replace the flywheel with every clutch or they can shudder causing clutch slip.
We fit used hilux solid flywheels if available or new solids from clutch specialists, remember these vehicles come with and without them, some noticable transmission chatter with a solid but a $500 or so saving.
Never had a comeback and the customers always opt for the cheap option
J Top

Posted: **Mon May 08, 2006 11:47 am**

J Top wrote:Surfs have these and it is recommended to replace the flywheel with every clutch or they can shudder causing clutch slip.
We fit used hilux solid flywheels if available or new solids from clutch specialists, remeber these vehicles come with and without them, some noticable transmission chatter with a solid but a $500 or so saving.
Never had a comeback and the customers always opt for the cheap option
J Top

From other stuff I read (just out of curiosity) it sounded like the DMF doesn't really do much to "protect the transmission" - rather, it's basically just about cutting down noise. Does that sound right?

Posted: **Mon May 08, 2006 4:48 pm**

yes it supposedly takes out the diesel chatter of the gears, the commercials don't have them, only the family wagons in my experiance.
Some pajeros are supposed to have them as well.
J Top

Posted: **Mon May 08, 2006 9:44 pm**

marko wrote: Have you got under the car and got someone to push the clutch in to see how far the fork is being push in. What the hell is a dual mass fly wheel.If it is a direct replacemeant for that model, I cant seeing it being Pressure plate,clutch plate or even flywheel a problem. Even though it only does it in reverse it may be just an adjustmeant. When it is working, how far do let the pedal out before the car just moves? My Gq did the same thing when it got hot. Could bearly get it into gear or out of gear some times. I ended up screwing the bolt out about 10mm on the foot pedal so it would give more travel to the clucth fork. It fixed the problem. Maybe have a look at that. May work.

when i got the car back the clutch engaged just out from the floor hard to get used to . you might have something with the adjustment will check this option out

Posted: **Mon May 08, 2006 10:45 pm**

Just thinking out loud here... maybe once it's hot and bothered the oil's a bit thinner and the gearbox input shaft is still spinning from momentum when the clutch is depressed. Is there any mechanism to slow down the box when the clutch is depressed?

In any case, if it's engaging right near the bottom of the pedal movement, try winding the clutch out a bit. On the MQ's you just turn the adjusting cone/nut combo on the slave's piston rod. That'll ensure that the clutch is well and truly disengaged when you put your foot on it.

I'm thinking this problem becomes obvious in reverse because the forward gears can deal with a bit of speed differential (synchro's and curved gears do that) while reverse is square cut and speeds must be pretty spot on. So if you're stationary and put your foot on the clutch, perhaps the gearbox input is still spinning a bit.

Outer Limits 4x4 Board

clutch problems

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