Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Ok, I finally have the time/funds to get started on a project.

For starters I'm in New Zealand, so I plan on building something that is a great off-roader and competition vehicle for my son and I to have some fun, and I plan on getting it all certified so that it still remains road legal. For those that dont know, there aint much you cant cert over here one way or another.

My plan is to buy complete vehicles for all the parts I need and then wreck out the rest to recover as much cost as is possible. The big problem I have is that I have been following threads that suggest different running gear, like GQ diffs, but I have no idea what year vehicles I should be looking for, most vehicles are only advertised with a year , not model. The other thing is that I have no objection paying $1500 for a vehicle to rip the diffs out of it, but I'm not interested in paying $4,000 for a vehicle just for the diffs, so I need a variety of different options.

I want the body to be a zuk, preference given to a 89-90 shape Vitara. Reasoning : My lady owns one so it gives me a number of spares.

I'm happy to stick with a zuk power unit, but am also happy to consider options. I have no objection to double transfer cases. The truth is I have no objection to just about anything as long as I end up with a tidy, good looking off-roader, an eye catcher that works well.

Searching around over the past few months I have found that it looks like my options for parts are :
Hilux surfs 85-90
LandCruisers mainly early models 70-85
Isuzu Mu and similiar flavours (late 80's)
Nissan Safari and Navara early 70-90

I dont know if Range Rover is an option, but as I already own one the spare parts would be handy.

All suggestions welcome.

Below are a few photos of the sort of thing I would like to build, these are only ideas not the end product :

What kind of events and whats your preference of engineering,

Eg coils/leaves etc.

Vit would probably take more $$ to get right but looks good built up.

Nissan Safari diffs is the GQ eqivalant ones.Rangie is good for the trailing arms and coils i believe.

Nic

I wouldn't of thourght that using nissan diffs would have been worth it if you are going to stick with the standard engine or similar as you will be adding alot of unnecessary weight to the vehicle . Toyota diffs may be a better option as there is a larger amount of spares over here in NZ and they would probibaly be cheaper than nissan diffs

Forgot that it might help if I mention what type of events

Mainly mud and winch work, deep holes filled with water, river crossings, not much rock climbing, although I would like to go in the coast to coast which is climbing and river crossing mainly.

There is no preference of engineering.
I know 89 Vitara are coils but I can change that to leaf if its considered a better way to go. Or I can just drop the zuk body onto a completely different chassis and make it fit, I could even build the chassis if need be.

It is more the end result rather than the amount of work that I'm looking at.

About the only setback and requirement would be an auto box as my son is only 8 (almost 9) and will want to drive it. It would take too much to expect him to use a clutch at this stage.

My initial thoughts were Rangie motor and box, zuk chassis, body and transfer cases (2), Toyota Hilux (Surf) diffs or Rangie, leaf springs front and rear even if it means more work.

I'm now not sure because it seems theres no reason not to keep the zuk 1600 motor although my preference would be a 16 valve rather than the more common 8 valve. It would appear that most people think the Rangie diffs are not strong enough for even under a zuk.

Body lift etc is just taken for granted ( I hope )
I was looking at 35"-36" tyres, but I believe that there are some restrictions on where you can use anything over 34", I'll need to check this out.

Thanks for your reply.

them trucks are all way to tall for what u want

why do u want a body lift?

get a lwb sierra
hilux diffs
spoa with long flat springs
1.6 with auto
rockhoppers say in the 4:1 range
lockers
35" simex

jazuki I have no plans on what I am powering this thing with yet. Originally I thought about using all the running gear out of a Mu, but I have no idea what the diffs are like and after once owning a diesel I'm not that sure that I want another one. My preference is petrol powered as I like to be able to work on my own vehicles, and I have a crazy passion for V8's. But I'm just asking for all the different ideas for now.

Thanks for your reply

Redzook, the top photo is of a vehicle here in NZ and write ups suggest it was a very capable vehicle, that is why I was looking at heading that way.

The reason for the body lift was:
Everyone seems to do a body lift.
Gives more clearance for tyres.
Keeps my butt dry hopefully. I'm an old man and I was aiming for a little comfort, my son is there to do the swimming.

Would you mind explaining why you say they are way too high ?
I thought wider diffs and offset rims would give it stability but I would appreciate hearing your point of view.

Thanks for the reply

Some-one explain spoa and the other one please

If u are dropping into mud holes ane similar and not so much side slopes they should be ok, You would start to get problems when u get to side slopes and tipping over.



Nic

Those photos are only a general idea guys.
I want feedback and am more than happy with longer wider wheel base if it will make a better vehicle.

Something like this would be ideal

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... ht=rang%2A

Build the one in the second pic it looks awesome

Troll01, you got a thread for the build on that rig (middle photo) ??

Maggot4x4, looks like a Rangie cut down with a zuk body on it.
I would be happy going this way, but just want to know more about the strength of Rangie diffs under something like this. Some info on what he did wouldnt have hurt.

Thank for your replies guys.

troll01 wrote:Build the one in the second pic it looks awesome

yes because we all know its how a rig looks that makes it capable

Rangie Motivated wrote:Redzook, the top photo is of a vehicle here in NZ and write ups suggest it was a very capable vehicle, that is why I was looking at heading that way.

your talkin about speed events mud and winching that truck would be good in a bouder field thats about it them revolvers or wat eva them drop shackles are would be good for speed events

The reason for the body lift was:
Everyone seems to do a body lift.
Gives more clearance for tyres.
Keeps my butt dry hopefully. I'm an old man and I was aiming for a little comfort, my son is there to do the swimming.
every one does a body lift? good reason for one then
yes does give more clearnce for tires but at the same time if u cut ur guards to clear the tires u will save weight and wont lift the COG
body lift aint gunna do nothing for comfort
how high of a body lift were u planning on doin to keep ur but outta the water

Would you mind explaining why you say they are way too high ?
I thought wider diffs and offset rims would give it stability but I would appreciate hearing your point of view.

yes offset rims and wider diffs do make it more stable but them cars are way to high taking away the advantage of a lower more stable car

Thanks for the reply

Hi
Not sure where to start . I have never built a rig like you are talking about so no experience to bring just a few pointers etc .

It sounds like you could end up using this for winch challenges etc and some other competitions , be it low key or not . I would recomment you get a copy of the relivent rules for events you may do or the vehicle could do . See what they have to say and go from there . You may not expect to do some competitions with it now but after building it up ( time and money etc ) it would be a bugger to be knocked out because of something that could have been worked around during the build .

The NZ winch comps had some strict rules on bodies and wheelbase length etc . I think the body and chassis had to be from the same make etc .

If I was to build up a road registered vehicle it would be a vitara lwb chopped to a cab , extra chassis cut off ( stay in wheel base rules ) , auto with solid toyota axles with coils all round ( centre rear diff on vitara box ) and either put a j20 suzuki motor into it ( easy ) or if more funds a lexus and auto mated to toy t/case . No body lift and cut the guards .

Good luck and keep us posted on what you end up doing .

Chris

ive got a good one for sale.. (see in the members section..).. im sure i could ship it for that price..

This book might be handy for ideas

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/190478 ... oding=UTF8

I can't recommend it because I haven't read it but was thinking about getting it myself. It seems to have a couple of different covers one with a Sierra and another with a Vitara but the content is the same.

Has anyone else seen this book?

Check out http://www.suzukiinfo.com too.

I'd either look at Redzooks idea (with coils as opposed to leaves)

or

LWB Vit with rangie V8, gearbox, transfer fed into 60 series diffs on coils.

Just build the car around the tyres you want to run. Tall cars may look cool, however they do not like side angles and you end up with severe drive line angles which may affect driveshaft lifespan and reliability.

The lwb Vit is a better starting wheelbase than the swb and if you really do decide to go down the path of dual t-cases then you'll want all the room you can get. As has been said driveline angles can get ugly if you haven't much room. Where abouts in NZ are you? There is a swb Vit that competes over there that is based around Palmerston North I think. If you decide on a Vit he may be worth a chat too.

This thread doesn't seem to be going the way I thought it would.

I have no set plans !

My preference is a zuk body, but that is only a preference.
When it comes to running gear I again have no preference. I believe that a zuk just with good tyres on it is a capable off-roader for a beginner, but I'm not looking at just a capable off-roader. If that was the case I would just go out and buy an old 410 or 413 and put some good rubber on it. This would be my preference normally and then I could learn as I go and add bits here, and add bits there.

There are a couple of reasons why I want to build something :
My son is 9 next week and he was into trail bikes until his best friend broke his neck. My son has had the guts (maturity) to tell me that hes not comfortable doing trail biking right now. I want him to have an interest and us to have something we share. I only have him on the wk-ends so it is good father son time.

The vehicle is also going to be used for advertising for my business so I want it to be an eye catcher and road legal.

I am open to all ideas/suggestions and am open to listen to all reasoning, my preference would be without the sarcasm.

This so far sounds like a good start:
LWB Vit with rangie V8, gearbox, transfer fed into 60 series diffs on coils.

I didnt think LWB or SWB would make much difference as I can always alter the wheel base anyway. I also was of the impression that coils were not the best alternative.

Is there anything wrong with the 1.6, 2L, 2.5L zuk motors/box combination for this project.

Could we possibly start building on the above suggestion, positives/negatives, alternative suggestions etc

Last thing, I keep reading about spoa, what the hell is it ?

Thanks to all that have replied so far.

SPOA Springs over axles

SPUA Springs under axles

Thanks cj, I knew it was something simple

As has been suggested, if you are looking to use this for competion then you need to know the rules so that you can build it to that and as you have also mentioned that you want to keep it road legal then you also need to build it to that. Find out what you can/can't do and use that to decide the direction. There are plenty here that can then tell you what is involved and the pros and cons of different choices. The size tyres you want to run may ultimately decide what is needed due to power, gearing and strength. Do you want to keep the body as is or are you willing to chop it?

I have spoken to some-one at the LTSA over here and it was more a case of get the project going and they'll look at it as we go . Also talked to an engineer and after I explained what I was looking at doing he pretty much gave me the same answer. So there doesn't seem to be any real big problems there.

I'm waiting for a set of rules to be sent over from NZFWDA, but I dont think that should hold me up as it would appear that lots of off-roaders run hilux or nissan diffs, different motors etc. Besides, I'm not planning on chopping anything up yet, just collecting parts.

I like this idea from Redzook, very much along the same lines of thinking that I had :
get a lwb sierra
hilux diffs
spoa with long flat springs
1.6 with auto
rockhoppers say in the 4:1 range
lockers
35" simex

35" tyres was very much along the same lines as my thinking.
Same applies to hilux diffs, I just dont know what year I should be looking for.
1.6 with auto suits perfect.
I'm guessing rockhoppers are either gears for the transfer case or gearbox, but I dont have a clue as no-one ever actually says what they are.
I would if at all possible like to go with LSD, instead of lockers. I dont have the experience at this point to justify lockers. They are more on the 12mth plan.

I still need to put some thinking into this, what is the best direction to take based on my lack of off-road experience etc. I realise I will probably be pulling this thing to bits again within mths of finishing it because it wont be good enough.

Thanks for the replies.

rockhopper/s is the general term for transfercase gears for suzukis and are as follows (very roughly)
Series 1 reduces high range by 12% and low by about 60% from memory. (low is 4.16:1)

Series 2 reduces high range by 20% and low by about 80% from memory. (4.89:1)

Series 3 reduces high range by 25% and low by about 120% from memory. (6.1:1)

There are also calmini gers that are a 5.14:1 reduction in low

You can also get 4:1 gears for a Vit T/case thatr does not reduct high range like it does in a sierra.

The lower high range helps out with taller rubber on the highway and at speed ..

You may also wan to take a quick look at these guys ... a bit more local and may be able to assist with better advice for local conditions
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/nzook/

you say your an older gent and you want room to move then a vit is for you as for a motor if you want to use this car for winch challenges has to be efi or on gas to cope with long periods on steep slops ie: commodore v6 lexus v8 or somthing light. as for diffs hilux solids and coil springs to absorb the bumps not bounce over them zuk chasis cause they are nice and flat nothing haning down under neath lwb is an ideal length no need to shorten or lengthen it. but i have done alot of winch challenges and it needs to be light low and heaps of go i emphisise light though

Thanks to love_mud and mysterioussasvit for your feedback.

I guess its time to see what is out in the market place so I can start this thing.

Typical NZ winch challenge rules are here: http://www.norwestohv.co.nz/winch_challenge.htm

Don't know what NZFWDA is sending you unless its for trials, which you wouldn't want to do in a road legal wagon.

There are limits to what will be passed/certed here depending on who does what.

LWB 413/410s are thin on the ground and over priced here.
Have a quick reread on what rotazuk has written. It is a sensible plan which would be eye catching while still tasteful if done right.

Vitaras are cheap if you keep your eyes open. You want hilux axles from 1984 onward. Would suggest the rear out of a surf (91 or later) as they are slightly wider. vitara chassis width and rear axle width chaged when they started fitting the v6 in them. If you found a 5.1 hilux/hiace diff you could leave the vitara rear alone and just change the front one.
NZ hiluxs came out with 4.88 diffs in the diesel for years. Most of the imports are 4.1 or 4.3.

Stu