Outer Limits 4x4 Board

my mate's sierra is almost ready to be rego'd again, and is now running.

problem is... we put RUF, and spua for rego. how do we move the diff back 1" so the tie rod and drag link dont touch?

we have a 3" drop pitman arm, and standard shackles. will the standard pitman arm be better?

or do we redrill a hole in the springs or in the perch? and move the diff back 1" back to standard?

redrill the perch

You would be better off working a way round the steering issue, as the longer wheelbase will be worth it. Moving the front axle forwards will help the off road and onnroad comfort as well as offroad perfornamve.
Layto....

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=46729

Might help

22mm is exactly half way between original hole and edge of perch.
redrilling is how I moved mine forward, so backwards be same.
My mate has ruf and he moved his back roughly an inch, for same reasons as you, by redrillng, and welding up original hole.
It passed engineer, but dunno if all engineers would?

christover

not sure on engineers but u can also use axle relocators. They come with the rro ruf kit. u can see this on the rro kit pic also

Basically there is a small bit of flat bar that has a pin welded in it and also a space for the other pin to fit.

[ * *] sort of. will try get a pic for u tomorrow.

Nic

SiKiD_01 wrote:my mate's sierra is almost ready to be rego'd again, and is now running.

problem is... we put RUF, and spua for rego. how do we move the diff back 1" so the tie rod and drag link dont touch?

we have a 3" drop pitman arm, and standard shackles. will the standard pitman arm be better?

or do we redrill a hole in the springs or in the perch? and move the diff back 1" back to standard?

mine just touch at certain times during suspension cycle. By touch Imean slightly polish and that's it. the whole point of doing the RUF is to bring the axle forward to change the weight balance and gain some wheelbase

Could I get a measurement on how far forward people have moved their front diff?
What Pitman arm they are using?
What other mods they have had to do to make this work eg move steering box etc?
What Diffs are being used WT, NT, Lux, 60, etc?

I have read a number of members threads but If you could post up here It would make a good bible entry

Thanks

we only need to move the diff back so that the drag link and tie rod dont touch. this is only for rego.

after we get rego, it will be going back to spoa. with spoa the diff is forward an inch and drag link and tie rod dont touch.

i guess it will be redrilling the original perch then.

thanks for all the help guys.

SiKiD_01 wrote:we only need to move the diff back so that the drag link and tie rod dont touch. this is only for rego.

after we get rego, it will be going back to spoa. with spoa the diff is forward an inch and drag link and tie rod dont touch.

i guess it will be redrilling the original perch then.

thanks for all the help guys.

you will have to drill the spring plate aswell

Plate pic.

Nic

how thick is that plate? 6mm?

how does the allen bolt stay in there?

my mate is a boiler maker, so there is plenty of steel lying around, and he has a huge hole punch machine, so the holes wont be such an issue is we use this plate way.

this might be a better way to move the diff back.

here is the sierra.



no shocks on yet, still trying to find some nice soft ones. we also have some climax shackles for the rear.

we also in-boarded the upper shock mount on the rear. is 3-4" up travel good or bad? we kind of thought it was bad at first, but 3" up and the rest droop is prolly better because of the climax shackles.

Yeh about 6mm. the bolt is placed in another hole and welded in. Flush grinded from behind.

Looks nice zook, how did u do the RUF and the rear shock mount.

Not used the plates myself yet but these are ones copied from the rro kit.



Nic

nicbeer wrote: how did u do the RUF and the rear shock mount.
Nic

we did a chassis extension on the front for stock rear leaves. shock mounts are stock atm, but we will be looking into this a bit later on.

the rear upper shock mount was cut out front the chassis, and a bit of 40mmx40mm with a plate was welded in accross the top of the chassis rails.

the plate was welded to the front side of the 40x40 and has 3 holes for different mounting points in-boarding). we also had to cut off one of the old fuel tank mounts, and weld it back on. looks good and seems strong. i will post pics up soon.

it looks dumb with so much lift

Just a suggestion, if you going to go spoa, ditch the body lift. Its just makes it way too tall and is crap offroad (I know as i have had it whilst i was in the proces of re-building some stuff on my rig). If the tyres dont cut witht he RUF and SPOA, start cutting. You will be much happier in the end. Much more stable. What steering are you running for the SPOA conversion.
Layto....

lay80n wrote:Just a suggestion, if you going to go spoa, ditch the body lift. Its just makes it way too tall and is crap offroad (I know as i have had it whilst i was in the proces of re-building some stuff on my rig). If the tyres dont cut witht he RUF and SPOA, start cutting. You will be much happier in the end. Much more stable. What steering are you running for the SPOA conversion.
Layto....

we have planned to take out the body lift from the start. its just a bit easier to get our hands and stuff under the body wheil we're making and modding stuff.

the body lift will come out next week end before we paint it all up. it will only be RUF SPOA stock rear leaves all round. NO sus lift or BL. will have climax shackles on back.

muppet_man67 wrote:it looks dumb with so much lift

c'mon mate, easy there. i could say u look dumb but i dont. looks are not what we are after, we just want functionality and practicality.

its sitting on 30"s SPOA and 2" BL there.

here its on 31" swampers SPUA. there's pretty much no way that it will go anywhere as it is.

Sikid wrote:

here its on 31" swampers SPUA. there's pretty much no way that it will go anywhere as it is.

What do you mean by this??
I think it is at a very good hight with the SPUA

SiKiD_01 wrote:

muppet_man67 wrote:it looks dumb with so much lift

c'mon mate, easy there. i could say u look dumb but i dont. looks are not what we are after, we just want functionality and practicality.

its sitting on 30"s SPOA and 2" BL there.

here its on 31" swampers SPUA. there's pretty much no way that it will go anywhere as it is.

Hehe the only place it will be going the way you are headed is on its roof

Seriously, to my eyes, it looks spot on with the 2" BL and the 31's, SPUA, RUF. I have seen and built a bunch of cars this way and there are no complaints. On the other hand, I have seen several cars go from SPOA to SPUA or the owners sell the SPOA to someone who doesn't know any better and build a SPUA car.

I can't see why anyone would ever want to run a SPOA to run a 31. It's a whole lot of work to get a SPOA sorted to run the same tyre as you have got on it now SPUA+BL, with stability nad near sotck angles on enverything.

When I saw the photo of it flexed SPUA, I though that was how it was going to stay.


Sorry for the abuse, I just can't see the point of all the hassle for a 31.

Steve.

SiKiD_01 wrote:

muppet_man67 wrote:it looks dumb with so much lift

there's pretty much no way that it will go anywhere as it is.

In any case, that's a big call you have made there. Exactly how is it more capable SPOA than SPUA with the same size tyre?

If you say clearance and travel I will respond with "at the diff?" and "spring life, axle wrap and uni joint life"

Let's avoid the fact that SPUA is already legal and SPOA is all down to what the engineer wants.

Once again Skid, I apologise, but you are making a pretty big claim there for a car that according to more people than just me, looked pretty sweet the way it was.

PS: Just read, you want to run Dumbax shackles and a SPOA? How many SPOA cars have you set up? (I do mean this seriously)

Steve

the tyres hit the rear guards a bit, and under the headlights. but the front diff is 1" forwards. i spose i just mean that the body will cut up the tyres if you try to go wheeling in it SPUA.

my mate doesnt plan on doing any cutting, so the only way we are going to clear the 31"s completly is to go SPOA with no BL or spring lift. for some reason, he is set on doing the SPOA.

and we did plan to go initially for a 33" tyre and SPOA, so thats why we did all the work, but in the end, we decided to go for a 31" first up, and see how it all goes. he might even replace the 31"s for 33"s soon, but only after a bit of wheeling.

its all good whether it be good or bad comments, as we wouldnt have been able to do much at all with out this forum and all the info you guys have.

cheers

Gwagensteve wrote:

SiKiD_01 wrote:

muppet_man67 wrote:it looks dumb with so much lift

there's pretty much no way that it will go anywhere as it is.

In any case, that's a big call you have made there. Exactly how is it more capable SPOA than SPUA with the same size tyre?

If you say clearance and travel I will respond with "at the diff?" and "spring life, axle wrap and uni joint life"

Let's avoid the fact that SPUA is already legal and SPOA is all down to what the engineer wants.

Once again Skid, I apologise, but you are making a pretty big claim there for a car that according to more people than just me, looked pretty sweet the way it was.

ok, i know it might sound as if i dont really know much about what i'm talking about, but we have considered just about everything, and i've done a lot of searching, and i've read up on a lot of what other people have done, and what worked and what didnt work.

clearance at the diff only depends on what size tyres and rims you are running, nothing else will give more clearance at the diff (except for portals or the like)

spring life? it can't be too hard to find pairs of stock rear leaf packs.

axle wrap? we are making a track bar up. this has been what we planned from the start, as we all know running light leaf packs will contribute to wrap.

uni life? well, we thought about that, and i guess he thinks its just one of those things you live with by running SPOA.

we're trying to get the whole travel out of the suspension when it cycles, and not have the tyres hit or jam on anything. we can limit up travel with bump stops, but we are still trying to find shocks that work in the range to suit. we're trying to get about the same flex from the front as the rear now. (before we put the climax shackles on the back)

also, we have though about getting custom driveshafts made up, esp on the rear with the added droop of the climax shackles. this may be just getting the slip joint lengthened.

we are still learning, and any comments are welcome.

Leave it as is and trim the guards, run 35's with basically no lift or legal hassels like the bodylift, swappping from SPOA to SPUA all the time.

Do you need huge amounts of flex ? if not the amount you have there SPUA is pretty good..


The things I liked about SPOA was the fact the engine etc was higher and up out of the crap and the great breakover angles. The way the SPOA moved the flex point or arc meant I could run a larger tyre for the same amount of total lift and maintain a pretty decent steering lock (without really silly offset on the rims)

Things I disliked, steering is costly to do properly .. the only real solution for a Zuk on Zuk diffs is the cast knuckle (like droopypete runs) Spring wrap (Big PITA) even on the front diff (with soft springs SPOA or SPUA this can still be an issue) much moreso on SPOA .. oh and bind in the unis can also be a pit of an issue, especially on the rear

But to move your diff ... redrill the perches as others suggested ..

For ease and legalities i would be leaving it how you have it now. Extend the bupstops if you dont want to cut.

Really it sounds like you are doing a heap of extra work to avoid cutting when cutting would ultimately lead to a better more capable vehicle (my opinion only).

SPOA is going to be a PITA. Your flex in the above pictures is pretty impessive. I would be putting the finishing touches on and wheeling it.

Skid,

My golden rule is that you only ever run as much total lift as you have to. I will always look at ways of running more and more tyre with SPUA, and I am pretty happy that I have reached the limit of suzuki parts strength (from a tyre size point of view) without having to go SPOA. Sure, there is lots of guard work, but I have set up cars with 35" tyres spua, and Greg's new car could probably run nearly a 37 SPUA.

If you haven't set up a SPOA car before, (and I know, neither have I, but I have unpicked a few and seen more go though the pain) You will find that chasing the bugs will be a major part of the next phase of development.

As per Love-Mud's comments, getting rid of the axle wrap, (or getting predictable on power behaviour) will be a challenge, even with a traction bar.

A stock sierra has about 1" of compression travel (front) and 2.5" rear stock. Even SPOA and bumpstopped down to this point, you will never match stock spring durability as the leverage on the springs is heavily increased. once people have got sick of the stock springs ride, they tend to go to an off the shelf lift pack (ome or something) and then screw up the angles and ride height again, and then bag the springs when they flog out.

sure, stock springs might be easy to come by, but when they have busted/wrapped on a trip and you have lunched a driveshaft, ease of finding them is not really the issue. If you de leaf a lift pack to get the height right, the rate goes too soft and the drivability gets screwed up.

I think properly fixing the steering is a $700+ job. (highsteer knuckle + links)

The rear driveshaft will give trouble with Dumbax shackles and the SPOA. Even getting traction bar design right will be a major PITA based on the angles you are dealing with. I have sen plenty of members in Melbourne try scissor shackles and they always manage to find someone else to buy them when they are sick of them doing stupid stuff off road.

All up IMHO, you are most of the way to get it right ATM. 2" body lift, get the front axle all the way forward with the RUF. Put the stock pitman arm back in it and run a small bumpstop spacer on the front (about 1") to keep the tie rod and the drag link apart. Get it reg'd

Then put some medium duty dakar or OME springs on it all round. It will drive straight, be spot on at speed and not be cop bait at all. More importantly, all of your key components for durability (steering and driveline) are running at much closer to stock angles, so they will have close to stock durability.

There will be a small amount of bodywork around the headlight bucket and that is all.

with the balance of front to rear flex favouring the front, you might be able to run the dumbax shackles and get away with it, so long as you run stiffish rear shocks.

trust me, this is so much less work and soo much more drivable than a SPOA to run a 31.

If you said 35's, then it is a bit more feasible to consider a SPOA, but please, not for a 31.

Steve.

PS check out the virtual lift question thread to check out one of out melbourne cars with q78's (over 35 tall) and still SPUA.

don't listen to em go spoa , dont go spoa its up to you what you do. sure it looks to high with the body lift which as you stated is coming out anyways , i think spoa works great i much prefer it over spua on my zooks not saying it carnt be sorted to work realy well spua , but just because such and such says this is how it should be dont mean crap , if that were true everyone would run the excact same setup , it comes down to what you wanna drive and how you want it to drive the intended terrain .

i might be wrong but i didnt think this was a spoa vs spua debate , it was smply a question on how to move the diff back 1" after doing a ruf , but than next up its that looks crap and thats too hi etc etc , carn't we just answer the question asked without all the opinions on why its not good enough sure everyones just trying to help but it gets tiring when this happens over and over again . surely you can just pm them with your facts and leave the thread to answer soley what was asked.

ok my soap box is starting to break so i best get down now .