Outer Limits 4x4 Board

I was looking at get my cruiser engineered, but cannot justify the price at the moment. Is it not heavily modded, with lights, body lift and 33's, but none the less under SA law, deemed unroadworthy.
My question is, has anybody had a run in when it comes to insurance. My concern is that if I have a crash, and say do $20,000 damage, and insurance say's your wheel track is oversize, we are not going to cover, I am up the creek.
To put it in perspective, one of the most common tyre sizes is 31 x 10.5 run on 4wds. This tyre would therefor leave most four wheel drives with these tyres unroadworthy and therefore uninsured.
Any thoughts

toy75 wrote:My concern is that if I have a crash, and say do $20,000 damage, and insurance say's your wheel track is oversize, we are not going to cover, I am up the creek.

... be more worried if you kill someone in an unroadworthy rig... your current nice tight cherry will be the size of the grandcanyon by the time you get out of jail...

Engineers are cheap now arent they....

toy75 wrote:
My concern is that if I have a crash, and say do $20,000 damage, and insurance say's your wheel track is oversize, we are not going to cover, I am up the creek.

... be more worried if you kill someone in an unroadworthy rig... your current nice tight cherry will be the size of the grandcanyon by the time you get out of jail...

Engineers are cheap now arent they....

[/quote]

That certainly are in that respect .
At current all that stands unroadworthy on my vehicle are my lights on the roof (ADR 13), but in the case of an ancident, I am sure that it could be agreed that the impact, has caused the position of my lights, to emit light at a distance greater than 11 meters.
After going through quiet a length process of making sure my vehicle is complient, I thought others who have'nt investigated the issue (such as my self when I ran 31 x 10.5), might like to know.
Cheers and beers
[quote][/quote]

just because everyone else does it doesnt mean its ok.

if its not legal you gonna get all thats comming to ya

wrksux wrote:just because everyone else does it doesnt mean its ok.

if its not legal you gonna get all thats comming to ya

Surely I am not the only person out there, who is concerned that their car could be considered unroadworthy. Cars have come out of the factory with defects, and you hear people not be covered in the case of an accident., in such cars.
I am not saying that it is ok to have an unroadworthy car, I am merley stating, that I sometimes am worried about what could or would happen, in an above such example.

Woah slow down there, what vehicles have come out of the factory new and sold to people in an unroadworthy condition for a new vehicle? what car maker would not adhear to ADR's and sell a car?

my car is legal with 33x11.5R15's (89 HJ60) so i dont know how you can say most 4wd's with 31x10.5's are illegal.

pretty sure all landcruiser/patrols came standard with 31"/32" tyres.

as long as you can easily prove that your mod's havent caused or contributed to the accident you'll be fine.

IE: someone pulls out in front, you swerve and end up on your roof...
or... if you lock up and t-bone them shouldnt have a drama.

but honestly, ring around a few engineer's, someone is bound to have done similar mods to the same car and it'll cost you only a couple of hunj for alot of peace of mind.

Simon

wrksux wrote:Woah slow down there, what vehicles have come out of the factory new and sold to people in an unroadworthy condition for a new vehicle? what car maker would not adhear to ADR's and sell a car?

The only car that I can think of, off the top of my head is the 'Blue Bird'. I have also heard stories/heresay of even such things as recent commodores being classed as unroadworthy(hearsay, pub stories).
Please let me clarify (as not to sound like an idiot), when I use the term 'unroadworthy", I mean, not complying with the current ADR's and other regulations that are put into place (no insurance company would say that a recently built car is unroadworthy as fear as litigation).

Shadow, my 75 come out with 32, 7.5 splitties, so putting 31 x 10.5 on them is illeagal.

I certainly don't mean to offend anyone or rock the boat, it was just food for though

I just did a quick google and the 88 honda prelude was sold new 'unroadworthy' as it was to low, not complying with ARD 24, as the wheel clearance was not sufficient.

toy75 wrote:I just did a quick google and the 88 honda prelude was sold new 'unroadworthy' as it was to low, not complying with ARD 24, as the wheel clearance was not sufficient.

if you hurt or kill someone and your rig is modded and not engineered - you will go to jail - end of story.

Change it back, get a second set of stuff or buy a tailer - fix it or it will cost you.

Tom

toy75 wrote:I just did a quick google and the 88 honda prelude was sold new 'unroadworthy' as it was to low, not complying with ARD 24, as the wheel clearance was not sufficient.

And in any court case Honda would be found at fault.

If you did the modifying YOU will be found at fault.

They cant just say "unroadworthy therfore un-insured". They will have to find evidence that the unroadworthy modification contributed to, or increased the severity of the accident.

IE, an illegal bullbar wont cause an accident, but it could kill someone who would otherwise survive. In this case you will be fucked over. And the insurance company would be liable for expenses had the vehicle been roadworthy. Im sure they could get some einstein to say if the bullbar was legal the person would have stood up and walked away with a headache, so the court may find you 100% liable, or maybe 90%.


If its damage to your vehicle that you are claiming for, and there is any evidence which implicates the illegal modification as a contributing factor you will get ZERO.

I work in the smash repair industry and have seen quite a few cars & 4wds insurance wiped because of mods that where not engineered.

I'm pretty sure even if your not at fault you will be charged as well because your car is unroadworthy and shouldn't have been on the road in the first place.

Cheers Mick.

Shadow wrote: They cant just say "unroadworthy therfore un-insured". They will have to find evidence that the unroadworthy modification contributed to, or increased the severity of the accident.

...and i'd say larger diameter/bias ply tyres could be blamed in almost any ciscumstance :(

-Stu

Shadow wrote:my car is legal with 33x11.5R15's (89 HJ60) so i dont know how you can say most 4wd's with 31x10.5's are illegal.

pretty sure all landcruiser/patrols came standard with 31"/32" tyres.

Shadow, I believe that you may have a false sense of security in believeing that your HJ60 is legal with 33x11.5's. Unless it is engineered I think it may be classed as unroadrowthy and in the event of a crash you could be held liable. This is due to the fact that by running 11.5's you have significantly increased your wheel track and no doubt your rim size. For your tyre and rim size to increase legally you cannot increase the wheel track more than 26mm (thats on 13mm each wheel from standard with no offset) and your rim size only 15mm in diameter. What were the standard tyres for the 60.
Just a thought as I am sure many people have 'unroadworthy' rigs unknowingly.
I am know considering getting it engineered, as most of your said, if Sh*t hits the fan, I will be in it.

I had a friend who had a brand new 60 series many years ago who wrote it off......no insurance because he had not told the insurance company about his window tinting!! He took them to court and still lost.
Also we don't need our good friend Mr Scruby getting any more ammo against us do we.

toy75 wrote:

Shadow wrote:my car is legal with 33x11.5R15's (89 HJ60) so i dont know how you can say most 4wd's with 31x10.5's are illegal.

pretty sure all landcruiser/patrols came standard with 31"/32" tyres.

Shadow, I believe that you may have a false sense of security in believeing that your HJ60 is legal with 33x11.5's. Unless it is engineered I think it may be classed as unroadrowthy and in the event of a crash you could be held liable. This is due to the fact that by running 11.5's you have significantly increased your wheel track and no doubt your rim size. For your tyre and rim size to increase legally you cannot increase the wheel track more than 26mm (thats on 13mm each wheel from standard with no offset) and your rim size only 15mm in diameter. What were the standard tyres for the 60.
Just a thought as I am sure many people have 'unroadworthy' rigs unknowingly.
I am know considering getting it engineered, as most of your said, if Sh*t hits the fan, I will be in it.

Standard tyres for a 60 are 31x10.5R15 or a 7.50R16LT.

In the Standards Manual the size of a 7.50R16LT tyre are listed to be
804mm Highway Tread(31.65"), 812mm Traction Tread(31.96"). So i can legally go 15mm taller, 827mm (32.56"). My 33" tyres measure 31.9" (worn so probably about 32.5" new)

Increase the width of your tyre does not increase your wheel track at all. Wheel track will only increase if you increase the rim offset. (Wheel track is measured from centre of LHS tyre to centre of RHS tyre)

So yes by going to 15x8" rims i have probably increased my track by 1" (a 1" wider rim will increase the track by 1/2" each side so 1"), which is within spec. QLD Transport Mod Leaflet states :-

"Off-road passenger vehicles fitted with front
and rear beam axles, may have an increase in track
up to 50mm beyond the maximum specified by
the vehicle manufacturer for the particular model
of vehicle."

The tyre width i am able to increase by 1.5times since i have beam axles (not IFS/IRS). So maximum width is 1.5times 10.5" = 15.75".

"However, for an off-road passenger vehicle fitted with
front and rear beam axles, the maximum tyre width
must not be more than 1.5 times the vehicle
manufacturer’s widest optional tyre."

So i can quite legally go to a tyre that measures 32.56" x 15.75" Of course id never fit such a wide tyre without increasing the wheel offset and as such track considerably(illegally).

Shadow wrote:

toy75 wrote:

Shadow wrote:my car is legal with 33x11.5R15's (89 HJ60) so i dont know how you can say most 4wd's with 31x10.5's are illegal.

pretty sure all landcruiser/patrols came standard with 31"/32" tyres.

Shadow, I believe that you may have a false sense of security in believeing that your HJ60 is legal with 33x11.5's. Unless it is engineered I think it may be classed as unroadrowthy and in the event of a crash you could be held liable. This is due to the fact that by running 11.5's you have significantly increased your wheel track and no doubt your rim size. For your tyre and rim size to increase legally you cannot increase the wheel track more than 26mm (thats on 13mm each wheel from standard with no offset) and your rim size only 15mm in diameter. What were the standard tyres for the 60.
Just a thought as I am sure many people have 'unroadworthy' rigs unknowingly.
I am know considering getting it engineered, as most of your said, if Sh*t hits the fan, I will be in it.

Standard tyres for a 60 are 31x10.5R15 or a 7.50R16LT.

In the Standards Manual the size of a 7.50R16LT tyre are listed to be
804mm Highway Tread(31.65"), 812mm Traction Tread(31.96"). So i can legally go 15mm taller, 827mm (32.56"). My 33" tyres measure 31.9" (worn so probably about 32.5" new)

Increase the width of your tyre does not increase your wheel track at all. Wheel track will only increase if you increase the rim offset. (Wheel track is measured from centre of LHS tyre to centre of RHS tyre)

So yes by going to 15x8" rims i have probably increased my track by 1" (a 1" wider rim will increase the track by 1/2" each side so 1"), which is within spec. QLD Transport Mod Leaflet states :-

"Off-road passenger vehicles fitted with front
and rear beam axles, may have an increase in track
up to 50mm beyond the maximum specified by
the vehicle manufacturer for the particular model
of vehicle."

The tyre width i am able to increase by 1.5times since i have beam axles (not IFS/IRS). So maximum width is 1.5times 10.5" = 15.75".

"However, for an off-road passenger vehicle fitted with
front and rear beam axles, the maximum tyre width
must not be more than 1.5 times the vehicle
manufacturer’s widest optional tyre."

So i can quite legally go to a tyre that measures 32.56" x 15.75" Of course id never fit such a wide tyre without increasing the wheel offset and as such track considerably(illegally).

Your are more than correct in that statement, I do apologise for making the assumption that 60's came out with 7.50's, on splitties.

So no actual horror stories then ..

Surely if this is sooooo common it must have happened to someone (a second cousins kids friend's dad does not count )

Who has been charged with and convicted of manslaughter..

love_mud wrote:So no actual horror stories then ..

Surely if this is sooooo common it must have happened to someone (a second cousins kids friend's dad does not count )

Who has been charged with and convicted of manslaughter..

that bloke in shitney several yrs back now, maybe more, had a V8 Lux that was unregistered, as it was still ebing built, took it for a test drive , throttle got jammed, he went into a yard and into a house.


this whole thing has been done on this board before with people having posted issues they have had.

toy75 wrote:
Shadow, my 75 come out with 32, 7.5 splitties, so putting 31 x 10.5 on them is illeagal.

just found this.

Are you sure wider wheels were not optional? they certainly are on the new 78 series utes (RV spec comes with 31x10.5)

if there is a factory fitted optional 31x10.5" tyre, then you can legally go exactly the same as me, 32.4"x15.75".

Shadow wrote:

toy75 wrote:
Shadow, my 75 come out with 32, 7.5 splitties, so putting 31 x 10.5 on them is illeagal.

just found this.

Are you sure wider wheels were not optional? they certainly are on the new 78 series utes (RV spec comes with 31x10.5)

if there is a factory fitted optional 31x10.5" tyre, then you can legally go exactly the same as me, 32.4"x15.75".

I believe that they only come out with 7.5R16t. Does anybody know if they come out with 31x 10.5s.

It may be a silly question (but anyway), if a try and get my car engineered, do they have to go though a set inspection/test, or will they just inspect/test the modified parts/accessories. e.g If I have 15x 8 rims, that are illegal and that is all that is stopping the car from being roadworthy, will that have to test for more than just the increased wheel track (therefor costing less).