Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Track bars, AHHHHHH
The mach 1 was crap and stuffed my springs.
The mach 2 was OK but ripped itself to bits and took out the axle tube
so I am onto the mach 3.
I will post some pics as I go and you can hang shyte on my welds
Peter.

I am doing mine this weekend...Thinking of using a stock coily arm

Stop being so soft and put the coils in

You know you're going to do it anyway

sierrajim wrote:Stop being so soft and put the coils in

You know you're going to do it anyway

(fingers in ears) LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTNING I'M NOT LISTNING LA LA LA

droopypete wrote:

sierrajim wrote:Stop being so soft and put the coils in

You know you're going to do it anyway

(fingers in ears) LA LA LA I'M NOT LISTNING I'M NOT LISTNING LA LA LA

OK, so lets be logical. So you've got all of the parts there to do a coil conversion (no more stuffed leaf springs) but you're going to buy new leaves, build a trac bar. Then 6 months later decide to do a coil conversion

Perhaps we sould start a poll?

James, refer to the 4th post in this thread
Peter.

droopypete wrote:James, refer to the 4th post in this thread
Peter.

OK i give up, you win.

Post some pics up Pete, i been thinking bout finnaly doing a trac bar for mine now i got some time and money. I'm sick of running stiff rear packs and putting up with it.

Layto....

The mach 1 was a single bar from the top of the centre to the chassis rubber on both ends, all it did was make the pinion drop, bending springs and stressing out uni's.

the second one was a triangulated bar rubber mounted at the center of the diff and rubber mounted to a hanger at the chassis,

this worked to a point but as James was quick to point out, this design assumes that the suspension cycles in an arc radiating from the chassis end of the track bar, whereas it travels in an almost vertical plane, so the track bar must be infuencing the suspension in an adverse way (contery to popular beleif) and as the forces involved are huge, it just ripped itself off the axle tube.
Peter.

so what is mach 3?

Perhaps you can quiz some of the Hilux guys, a few of them run track bars with good results (from what I have heard/read).

I do agree with Jim though, coils are the logical solution. Which is probably why you are persisting with leaves (logical being the operative word)

droopypete wrote:The mach 1 was a single bar from the top of the centre to the chassis rubber on both ends, all it did was make the pinion drop, bending springs and stressing out uni's.

the second one was a triangulated bar rubber mounted at the center of the diff and rubber mounted to a hanger at the chassis,

this worked to a point but as James was quick to point out, this design assumes that the suspension cycles in an arc radiating from the chassis end of the track bar, whereas it travels in an almost vertical plane, so the track bar must be infuencing the suspension in an adverse way (contery to popular beleif) and as the forces involved are huge, it just ripped itself off the axle tube.
Peter.

Did you run a shackle on the chassis end to allow for the ecentric arc of travel in the rear end?? I modeled a GQ radius rod running to a shackle at the chassis end in ProENGINEER, was thinking bout going that way. Have seen it work before and would be cheap and easy to do. Just make a mount over the top of the zook centre, and re-inforce it, then a crossmemeber under the chassis. Though im still not sure, coils would be much better depends on $$$ at the time. The anit-squat you get with a trac bar is a downside too.

Layto....

Layto....

Damo wrote:Perhaps you can quiz some of the Hilux guys, a few of them run track bars with good results (from what I have heard/read).

I do agree with Jim though, coils are the logical solution. Which is probably why you are persisting with leaves (logical being the operative word)

I think that part of the success of track bars on Hiluxes is that they can be much longer. This limits the angle changes that they force the springs into.

We had an extended wheelbase LWB SPOA car in the club with the shackled/ two mount on diff style (the "Sam's Offroad" type) and it worked very well but the bar was about 5 feet long.

Even joey's SR20 car work well with the Sam's style but as a SPUA auto with relatively tall gearing it's not as hard on it.

PS I wish you all the best Pete (as I always do )but I don't think it is possible. Maybe try a 1 link with dual shackled leaves if you want to be different? You could even use the leaves to act as the lateral axle location to be really whacky (no, I am serious)

Steve.

muppet_man67 wrote:so what is mach 3?

1020.87 m/s

cj wrote:

muppet_man67 wrote:so what is mach 3?

1020.87 m/s

Gold

isnt it gilette?

Sorry to be a noob but i don't know squat about track bars. Can you use something like a rotatable joint (eg. in your steering arms) to allow the track bar to move at the chassis so the diff articulates with no limitations

zookmad wrote:Sorry to be a noob but i don't know squat about track bars. Can you use something like a rotatable joint (eg. in your steering arms) to allow the track bar to move at the chassis so the diff articulates with no limitations

when you have a light leaf pack, you get a soft spring rate which can result in a lot of flex (or sag). probably the complete opposite to brand new 2" lifted king springs. anyway...

when you take off from stationary, like at the lights, the pinion will want to tilt upwards and over, rotating the diff backwards of sorts. and when braking or decelerating, the pinion wants to tilt downwards towards the ground.

this force twists the springs up. here is a pic from:
http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... hp?t=84792

baddboy posted but didn't wrote:

a track bar mounts to the chassis and usually 2 places on the diff housing, usually one above the housing tube and the other in front or under. the 2 mounts on the diff housing stops this twisting, or reduces it a lot.

due to the way leaf springs are set up, the arc the travel in is hard to copy for the design of a track bar. when the rear diff droops, it moves forwards, and when it travels upwards, it moves rearwards. if you made a track bar without this in consideration, you would find it would break, or reduce and hinder travel or articulation in the back and bind things up. this is why most people use a shackle at the chassis mounting. this is also why the driveshafts have slip joints, and are not fixed lengths like front driveshafts of IFS cars.

track bars are not supposed to stop forward or backwards movement of the diffs, they are designed to stop wrap (or slap). old school street and drag cars which used leaf springs in the rear used to run slapper bars to stop axle tranp or axle hope. same thing.

if you had a track bar set up, and the you dis connected the front chassis mount, the bar would theoretically 'slap' the underside of the car or body when accelerating hard, or when doing a burn out on road. and when down shifting through the gears, or decelerating, the end of the track bar would want to dig into or slap the road, or become an olympian pole volting the back of the car over the front.

many track bars are fitted with high flex bushes, usually rubber, or rose joints. this allows the rear diff to flex as it wants without it ripping the mount off the chassis.

as for the "rotatable joint (eg. in your steering arms)" i am not sure as to what this is. if you are talking about ball joints, then i guess the answer would be. they would be harder to mount, as most need a tapered hole to bolt through, and the are also limited to the amount of movement they have.

there have also been track bars where a round bar is slid into some tube. this means you can have a fixed mount on the chassis, as well as the fixed diff mounts. the bar can slide in and out of the tube, and it is also able to spin as it wants inside.

coil it and get some more wheelbase while you're at it

SiKiD_01 wrote:
there have also been track bars where a round bar is slid into some tube. this means you can have a fixed mount on the chassis, as well as the fixed diff mounts. the bar can slide in and out of the tube, and it is also able to spin as it wants inside.

Thanks for the great reply. I have spoa with soft springs and have to replace rear springs many times. But i can't quite grasp what you ment with this sliding tube. Is this the single link or the 2 link setup. By the way i understand what was said this wouldn't work as the diff can still rotate backwards and forwards with this system as what you said the tailshaft slides in and out while aticulating so the track bar will also slide in and out. Wouldn't that allow the diff to rotate up and down still causing spring warp?

zookmad wrote:

SiKiD_01 wrote:
there have also been track bars where a round bar is slid into some tube. this means you can have a fixed mount on the chassis, as well as the fixed diff mounts. the bar can slide in and out of the tube, and it is also able to spin as it wants inside.

Thanks for the great reply. I have spoa with soft springs and have to replace rear springs many times. But i can't quite grasp what you ment with this sliding tube. Is this the single link or the 2 link setup. By the way i understand what was said this wouldn't work as the diff can still rotate backwards and forwards with this system as what you said the tailshaft slides in and out while aticulating so the track bar will also slide in and out. Wouldn't that allow the diff to rotate up and down still causing spring warp?

because the leaf springs are fixed at the front mounts, the diff cannot move forwards or backwards much. the round bar is slid into the tube, and runs almost the whole length inside the tube, leaving only about 3"-4" outside the tube, this lets it slide in and out. this also depends on how much flex you have.

the 'slap' area is in red. this method will not work if there is only a single mount on the diff. if it were a single mount, it would just slide in and out like the driveshaft would.

SiKiD_01 wrote:

zookmad wrote:

SiKiD_01 wrote:
there have also been track bars where a round bar is slid into some tube. this means you can have a fixed mount on the chassis, as well as the fixed diff mounts. the bar can slide in and out of the tube, and it is also able to spin as it wants inside.

Thanks for the great reply. I have spoa with soft springs and have to replace rear springs many times. But i can't quite grasp what you ment with this sliding tube. Is this the single link or the 2 link setup. By the way i understand what was said this wouldn't work as the diff can still rotate backwards and forwards with this system as what you said the tailshaft slides in and out while aticulating so the track bar will also slide in and out. Wouldn't that allow the diff to rotate up and down still causing spring warp?

because the leaf springs are fixed at the front mounts, the diff cannot move forwards or backwards much. the round bar is slid into the tube, and runs almost the whole length inside the tube, leaving only about 3"-4" outside the tube, this lets it slide in and out. this also depends on how much flex you have.

the 'slap' area is in red. this method will not work if there is only a single mount on the diff. if it were a single mount, it would just slide in and out like the driveshaft would.

This is what Pete and i spoke about. If you really look at it closely it will bind and hinder suspension travel. It will nodoubt work in saving your springs but it will bind on a zook.

I understand what sierrajim is mentioning about binding. The foward / backward rotation of the diff would change the angle of the 'fixed' bar, (slap up and down) and would bind inside the slip housing, hindering suspension travel while under accel/braking.

I think the rotating joint zookmad was reffering to was one of the ones that is used in an a-frame coil suspension setup? Ie in can rotate on the axis of the shaft, but cannot go side to side or move foward or backward...? (i forget what they are called)

With a shackle at the chassis end and one of these rotating joints, would the shackle allow much rotation movement in the diff (slapping of the track bar)? I'd imagine it would be minimal up and down movement of the fixed bar pivoting from the diff, yet would still allow front to back movement in the axle under cycling/compression/droop.

Much like layto suggested, a patrol radius arm, flipped onto the top of the diff, however in this case, one with a rotating joint like the 3rds arms, not just the bushes like the standard patrol arm. (with a shackle at the chassis end)

Could you isolate the spring from the axle by using a pin/eye connection between the spring and axle (aligned along the axis of the axles)? This would give the fore/aft rotational movement of the diff with respect to the springs, needed by the track bar.

Jesus H Christ!!!! I just worked out how long my car has been off the road
I need a good boot up the arse
Peter.

droopypete wrote:Jesus H Christ!!!! I just worked out how long my car has been off the road
I need a good boot up the arse
Peter.

You were missing from 2 adventure Tours

droopypete wrote:Jesus H Christ!!!! I just worked out how long my car has been off the road
I need a good boot up the arse
Peter.

see it can happen very easily, you think "that wasn't too bad only a couple of months" and then you realise it was a couple of years

Hey I like the way my "moobs" wobble

grimbo wrote:

droopypete wrote:Jesus H Christ!!!! I just worked out how long my car has been off the road
I need a good boot up the arse
Peter.

see it can happen very easily, you think "that wasn't too bad only a couple of months" and then you realise it was a couple of years

Wise words Graham, but you are the king of being chronologically challenged
Peter.

This is what I made , worked well on a spring over shorty zuk , cheers Paul.