Outer Limits 4x4 Board

as the title says, just looking at setting up a lux with possibly 3 link panhard front and want to know if it will be drivable at all on road. even if its an absolute pig, it will be used to drive down for a roady and back home \then trailor everywhere else.

thanx
Evan

My understanding is 3 link is OK, 5 link is a bit soft on handling on road but awsome off.

Like everything it shold drive perfectly on the road if you build it right.

Get your angels set up etc

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/PHP_Modul ... =professor

have a look throught this thread

Chad

i wasnt talking about radius arm setup, which i thought may occur but hoped wouldnt, im talking about 3 links aswell as a panhard link.

yes i ran a 3link in the front of the zook drove fine as long as u get the caster right and have good bushes it will be fine

I had a 3 link + panhard front and rear in my zook, and it was drivable on the road. Mine wasn't set up properly but, and had heaps of body roll and bumpsteer. As others have mentioned, if it's all setup correctly I don't think you would have a problem.

It's all good.
Just make sure you get the radius arc correct and the castor angle correct
and you should be fine.
The best is to set your radius arc at nearly max at ride height.

Cheers
Dazza

love_mud wrote:Like everything it shold drive perfectly on the road if you build it right.

Get your angels set up etc

What he said, mine drives fine even at highway speeds.

Use the 3 link calculator and do a shitload of research.

I have a 3 link + panhard in the front of my Pajero. It's fine on the road.

ZOOK60 wrote:yes i ran a 3link in the front of the zook drove fine as long as u get the caster right and have good bushes it will be fine

Those springs look like they came from a Searly bed.....or maybe even Bunnings .

Seriously that is some flex.

brother tryed this in his lux, was scary at speed, anything above about 60km/h it just went into death wobbles, the faster you went the worse it got. flexed aworsome though.

GRINCH wrote:brother tryed this in his lux, was scary at speed, anything above about 60km/h it just went into death wobbles, the faster you went the worse it got. flexed aworsome though.

i would say it was not set up properly then

thanks guys

Can someone explain to me why 5 links are supposedly so scary at speed yet 3 link + panhard is OK?

That way I see it, there is very little difference between the 2 except the 3+ link has one less control arm ...

My understanding was the improved flexibilty was what causes the issue, flexibility that they both have almost equally. Apart from the correct geometry (on both types), the only thing I see fixing this is big asss swaybars with disconnects, correct?

i think that the 5 link mite fall into the same category as the 3 link, fine if its set up right, shit if its not. so i guess its all preference.

To a certain extent I agree, but I think more the problem is how flexible they are, making them a sloppy pig to drive.

Maybe someone who builds/drives them can shed some light?

RoldIT wrote:Can someone explain to me why 5 links are supposedly so scary at speed yet 3 link + panhard is OK?

That way I see it, there is very little difference between the 2 except the 3+ link has one less control arm ...

My understanding was the improved flexibilty was what causes the issue, flexibility that they both have almost equally. Apart from the correct geometry (on both types), the only thing I see fixing this is big asss swaybars with disconnects, correct?

I would say it has nothing to do with the amount of links more to do with type of car ie generally a patrol or cruiser will have a 5 link and at least a 7" lift and mabee a 2" bodylift that is a lot of weight up high.

Then you have lets say my old zook or drop bears hilux both 3 link not to much wieght and both are built to keep lift to a bear minimum.

RoldIT wrote:Can someone explain to me why 5 links are supposedly so scary at speed yet 3 link + panhard is OK?

That way I see it, there is very little difference between the 2 except the 3+ link has one less control arm ...

My understanding was the improved flexibilty was what causes the issue, flexibility that they both have almost equally. Apart from the correct geometry (on both types), the only thing I see fixing this is big asss swaybars with disconnects, correct?

Any object including an axle can have 6 degrees of freedom - 3 rotational and 3 translational freedoms. With an axle we want only 1 translational (vertical up-down) and 1 rotational (articulation). The suspension has to constrain the other 4 freedoms.

Now a link as defined in kinematics only resists axial movement (in this sense radius arms are not links). So each link constrains 1 degree of freedom. So we need only 4 links, such as a three link plus panhard (a panhard is a link after all).

If we have 5 links there is 1 link too many - our system is overconstrained because we want 2 degrees of freedom.

So how can a 5 link work? By making the pairs of links (uppers and lowers) on either side parallel and having flexible bushes, we can get reasonable flex before the links bind.

But!, if the upper and lower links are parallel, then we can't have any anti-dive under hard braking - this is far from good on road.

A 3 link plus panhard does not require the upper and lower links to be parallel and they are best with little flex in the bushes. So if set-up correctly they will flex better than any 5 link and will have anti-dive.

The main problem with a 3 link is getting a single upper link (IMHO 2 lowers and 1 upper is better) close enough to centre and clear the engine sump etc.

The X-link that Glen Dobbin makes, converts radius arm suspension into the equivalent of a 3 link plus panhard, without the problem of clearance or extreme offset of a single upper link.

A standard radius arm set-up provide a considerable amount of roll resistance which is not there when you convert to 3 link plus panhard so you should consider a swaybar (with disconnects for offroad).

OK, that makes sense now. I wasn't aware that 5 links required parallel links but I understand what you are saying about anti dive, constraining freedoms of movement, etc.

Cheers.

I run a 5 link front & back in my car with 3" suspension lift & 2" body lift .
I have soft springs so I get a bit a lean when hooking into corners but I don't get the nose diving into the ground at all when slamming the brakes on. I use my car every day for work towing a trailer as well as offroad nearly every weekend , got nice flex too . I've had to do some heavy braking & swerve at the same time to miss being collected a few times and the 4by has handled grouse.
As said before if the car is built/set up right at the start then you will have a great all round package....... Cheezy Racing built my car so the credit goes to them, but I get to play in it all the time

I agree with most of Bush65's comments but a five link suspension does not have to have parallel radius arms, in fact most do not and they are not equal length either. All the Jeeps with solid front ends have five link suspension with unequal non parallel arms. It is the combination of arm lengths and relative angles that determines some of the suspension handling characteristics. Over and above this is the position of centre of gravity and the roll axis of the vehicle. One advantage of a five link system with moderate suspension travel is the ability to build in roll stiffness by having the redundant constraint try to twist the axle through bushes. The advantage of the three link is that it allows much greater articulation (roll) without the linkage fighting itself.

The main issue is correctly setting up the overall geometry, sring rates, and stabiliser selection. add to this correctly selected shockers and you can end up with a 'magic' suspension with a live axle.

Biggest dissadvantage of a three link front is where to put the third mount on the axle and how to tie it back to the chassis. Pure geometry defines that it should be in the middle of the chassis rails, but unfortunately this is where the engine and transmission is..... Rethink and put an A frame with centre mount on the axle. A slight compromise, but if done well could also get rid of the panhard rod as well. It becomes the reverse of what LR have on the rear of just about all their coil sprung rears.

Suspension geometry is a massive series of compromises. It just depends what you need to most.

Buggerlugs wrote:I agree with most of Bush65's comments but a five link suspension does not have to have parallel radius arms...

You are correct, they don't have to be parallel.

My post was a reply to a question (which I quoted) as to why they have a reputation for scary handling.

Because there are 5 links, they do need to be parallel to get maximum articulation and if they are parallel, then you will not have anti-dive.

If not parallel, and the angles converge where the chassis mount would be for a radius arm, then anti-dive can compare with radius arms, though articulation is also affected - but not quite as poor as radius arms because of the extra bushes at the chassis end.

So if you want the anti-dive and on road handling that radius arms have, it can be achieved, but you have to assess if it is worthwhile for the effort for the not so large gain in articulation. They won't articulate as well as a 3 link plus panhard, or the the Dobbin X-link.

Drop Bear wrote:

love_mud wrote:Like everything it shold drive perfectly on the road if you build it right.

Get your angels set up etc

What he said, mine drives fine even at highway speeds.

Use the 3 link calculator and do a shitload of research.

Hey Drop Bear,

Where can i find this 3 link calculator?

Cheers

is there a 5 link calculator?????????

im pretty sure the 5 link is with the 4 link and 3 link calculator..... do a search for the 3 link calculator and it has a link for pirate.