Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Like everything else, Land Rover did it first. Look what came from the Land Rover Factory in the early 60's...




Specs:

2.3l petrol 4cyl
Std LR gearbox and T-case
ENV/Eaton axles (very strong) 3.6:1 ratio with 3.6:1 planetary hub gears
Overall crawl ratio 120:1 in 1st low
Tyre size 11.20"x28" (OVER 50.4" !!!!!!!).
Front Track 76"
(and of course enormous brakes).
And ROAD REGISTERABLE!!!
Unfortunately only 9 were made (but 15 sets of axles). But since one was owned (and road registered) by the snowy mtns commision it may be possible to build one and get it registered. Imagine turning up to a 4x4 comp and entering in the std class!!!!

Oh and by the way, I saw this one recently in the scottish highlands, the location is a secret between me and the guy who I am going to buy it from.

Damm its wide. Would look good with a set of Claws or Swampers..

Yes interesting looking buggy,.

Read about it in one of the LRO mags a while back.

If the details could be found of the one they had in the snowies imagine rocking up to motor reg lol.

Michael.

if i remember right it was cursed by no articulation.
somewhat helped mby tyre size.
GO FOR IT, I'LL DEFINATELY PIT CREW.
i've been watching to many tuff truck vids.
thanks chris.

what was the original intention of this vehicle?

Thor wrote:what was the original intention of this vehicle?

4wd Ferguson tractor I'd reckon. Probably has a three point linkage on the rear too.

Jeep, way back in the Willys and then Kaiser periods (40's and 50's) used to do similar things to CJ2's, 3A's and 3B's. Three point linkages on the rear for implements, rear PTO, etc.


Rick

Articulation wasn't too bad



Not the best pic....

Built for forestry crews.

I forget exactly where it is, but there is a dealer in the Scottish Highlands who has (had...) one of these in his forecourt and also had a cuthbertson conversion. I drove past one day and just had to pull in for a quick look.

A cuthbertson is a set of individual caterpillar tracks in place of each wheel. Be good in a bog.

Steve

its ugly

bubs wrote:its ugly

Its a landrover...

i mean its an ugly landrover, i dont mind the shape of the series rover but that is wrong

Very true... A triumph of function over form.

Wouldn't take much imagination to build better wheel arches but you get the feeling they just didn't give a feck...

In a way I admire that

As Bodge said built for forestry use - driving in mud/swamps and the ability to drive over logs, etc...

They may be ugly, but not as ugly as a toyota...

was that an attempt at a smack

I just discovered this thread way back in the archives, so I thought I would dust it off for a bit.
the vehicles were converted by Roadless Traction Limited of Hounsloe in England who were subcontracted by Rover to produce a conversion in response to the Forest services requirements . About 20 were made.
Early ones had modified GMC axles with hub reduction and modified Ferguson tractor drum brakes. Later one had big disc brakes on ENV diffs.
Unfortunately no difflocks were fitted, so the vehicle wasn't as capable as it could have been. But most were indeed registered for road use and it was an officially approved conversion, sanctioned by landRover Special projects division. so I believe it set a precedent for other LandRover enthusiasts to follow should they choose. About 20 years ago I got approval in principal from an Engineer in Victoria to do a similar conversion. I had some spare money in those days and wrote to Roadless Traction enquiring about conversion parts, but unfortunately they had been out of business for several years. I decided to make my own stuff from cut down Leyland tipper reduction hubs on Salisbury diffs but it ended up as one of those projects that never got finished. I still have the the old planetary hubs lying on my scrap pile on the old farm.
Incidently, the Snowy Mountains conversion used standard LandRover diffs and axles with cobbled up wheel adaptors to bolt grey Fergy wheels and tyres on, so How good would that have been?

This rover was known as a Bog Trotter. very rare, not many made. i belive there are three remaning.

Drew.

I have it on good authority from the owner of a Genuine Forest Rover (who has owned it since new - and thoroughly researched the history of the vehicles) in the Falklands that 15 sets of axles were made but only 9 vehicles.

The one in the pictures I posted was one of two owned by a Scottish Hydrology institute, both purchased in the mid 1960's. The one in the pictures was sold in 1995 and the second one in 2000 (with a spare set of axles bought from Roadless Traction when they closed down (one of the 6 extra sets they had)). Both Land Rovers were used continuously for hydrology research in remote parts of the scottish highlands from the mid '60's to when they were sold.

The one above had Huge (ferguson tractor) drum brakes and axles that looked like the Eaton truck axles some of the US rockcrawlers use (and look almost the same as an ENV diff). The guy in the falklands says they are the same as on STudebaker trucks. I have about 20 more detailed photos of bits of this truck if anyone is interested (don't have all of them scanned though - I use old fashioned photography). I have never heard of the disc braked ones Bill, they sound interesting. One thing the guy in the falklands wanted was a replacement source for the planetary reduction hubs - how easy to convert are the hubs you mentioned.

I think that 5 or 6 of the 9 are known to be still in use.

I was thinking about making one of these too - but it would be hard to build one capable of safely driving highway speeds (not with tractor tyres of course).

Ben, I remember seeing the one in the Falklands on telivision news during the war with Argentina. As I remember there was very little bodywork left.
As far as I am aware Studebaker never built trucks with Banjo type diffs. They used the ancient style "Timken" split diffs. whereas GMC used the Banjo style as used on the early Roadless Rovers.
The later production vehicles were quite tidy in appearance, with proper rear bodies and cleaned up frontend styling.
I don't read LROwner international anymore, but they have run features on these vehicles a couple of times over the years, and there is a late disc braked example in the Heritage museum I think.
The Leyland hub reduction units are completely different and much larger than the Roadless ones. There is nothing that cannot be reproduced here in Australia, so if the owner can send samples of the parts he requires to one of the gear manufacturers over here I am sure they would be able to help him out.
These days with so many small to medium 4wd tractors about, it should not be difficult to source diff/axle assemblies to build a similar vehicle.
Because Rover themselves set the precedent, I see no reason why a similar vehicle to Sams MogRover could not be engineered and registered.
It would probably have to be on a series 2A though.
I wonder if the Roadless traction LandRover would have been a commercial success if it were built today? Bill.

This is the one in the falklands. 1 owner since new apparently.

And this is the dunsfold one - didn't know it has disc brakes... This one and the Falklands one above have pretty genuine guards and rear bodies. The one I posted at the top of the thread has a homemade rear body and a few changes to the guards.

I may have missed it further up, but do you know what size tyres they are? I'm starting to get ideas for my next project me thinks......

There was an optional 13.5 x28 tyre available too.
That isn't the vehicle I saw on tv news back then Ben.
Roadless used their front axles and a special Pto to convert many 2wd tractors to 4x4 from just after WW2 untill they closed down, so the vehicle i saw on tv may have been an old Fergy or similar. I believe the top photo is the of the prototype. A good set of cycle type front fenders that were bolted to the swivelhousings would have permitted much greater articulation without increasing ride height.
Bill.

Greetings to all....!

...Have read the thread with interest...!!

You are correct Bill, this vehicle here would not have been seen on TV during the conflict....as much as the Argentines would have liked to have used it, it was undesireable due to it not being diesel, & it never came out of the garage in the whole sorry period.

However, we continue to research the issue of the axles; they are most certainly NOT 'GMC' ones.....we also have a Roadless International B-450
which does have a GMC 2&1/2 Ton front axle fitted....its totally different..!

Studebaker cars & light trucks did have a banjo-style axle under them, but I am not able to find any online references as yet to all models & years of production. When I was over in Argentina many years ago, I had a chance to examine a Studebaker 'Champ' 1-ton pickup ('ute' ..right Ben..? ) & this had a banjo diff but I never had cause at the time to
relate it to the Roadless as we were still under the impression that the axles were designed entirely in UK.

The planetary hubs must have been a proprietary design; a chance purchase last year of an old 'Observer's Military Vehicles' show the same hubs fitted to a 4WD J1 Bedford truck, & a 2-Ton F/C Perkins powered prototype Land Rover.....& these appear to be on the ends of GKN (Salisbury) 8HA casings......

.....The mysteries deepen.....

I can (& will) post more info later.....btw on subject of bodywork, its worth bearing in mind that functionality was the issue back then; these trucks were hand-built, & as Roadless Traction was an engineeering firm rather than coachbuilders, they would not have come up with anything more than could be done with metal shears, a sheetmetal folder & a welder...!

The truck with disc brakes allegedly at the heritage museum sounds like the recently-restored 2-litre diesel prototype....which was fitted later on with an arrangement that bears similarity to Jaguar callipers,(on front only) & as far as we are aware, is the only one so-equipped.
The Dunsfold one (currently being restored by the British Army workshops at Chobham) is fitted with drums.

Best regards

Nick

Nick,
welcome aboard.

Nice to see this board geting more international.

Interesting vehicle this roadless LR.
Be good to have had one registered in Aust, would make it interesting for the RTA.

Michael.

Welcome Nick, and Thanks for your input.
There is quite a lot of misinformation about Rare LandRovers out there and it is good to hear from those who have first hand knowledge.
May i make the point that there were very few Studebaker Champs or cars in Britain at any time and they weren't 4x4's anyway, so why would Roadless bother to use their diff centres only? The last time I saw a Stude Champ It had a Dana spicer diff (similar to Salisbury)
By piecing together bits of misinformation from various articles on Roadless Rovers over the years I deduced, perhaps incorrectly that they really meant GMC 2.5 ton axles, of which vehicles there were many thousands in Britain after the war. The Studebakers were mainly supplied to Russia, and as I mentioned before were a split Timken design.
I think a relatively small company like Roadless would'nt bother to tool up to make swivel housings and CV joints for what was always going to be a small production run, so I would check out WW2 era british or American All wheel drive trucks to determine the source of the basic axle assemblies. But then again they could be left over axle assemblies from unsuccessful tenders by other British Vehicle manufacturers who hoped to win a military contract. One thing that baffles me is why didn't Roadless simply widen LandRover axles and then fit the planetary reduction hubs to them. Even the old rover diff in 3.9:1 ratio with 3.00 planetaries would have been strong enough to turn 11.00x28 tyres. and the vehicle would have been cheaper to produce and therefore more commercially successful.
Whatever, I think it is the most interesting vehicle that LandRover ever produced, and I am sorry it did not succeed.
Regards, Bill.

Hi Nick, thanks for posting.

I think there are quite a few of us interested in finding out the full story. Feel free to post more pics of your vehicles!

Nick, would you be able to give us some idea of how your vehicle drives,rides, steers, stops and handles? And how does it compare with a standard LWB in various off road conditions? I remember reading in a book titled," LandRover The Unbeatable 4x4" that off road testing on the Wilkes brothers farm in Wales revealed that the Roadless was much less stable on side slopes than a standard Rover.
I find that hard to believe considering a front track width of 76 inches and rear track width of 66 inches, and no suspension lift. verses 51.5 inches front and rear for the standard truck.
Regards, Bill.

hey all, just a quote from "land rover, conversions & applications since 1948" [this strange looking, 109in series II land rover conversion for forestry work was engineered by the Forestry Commission Experimental Establishment and several production models were manufactured by Roadless Traction Ltd in 1962. Called the Forest Rover, it had very wide axles giving a 13:1 reduction and manufactured by Kirkstall Ltd of leeds, and big tractor wheels fitted with 10 x 28in Firestone tyres. Its enormous underbelly clearance resulted in extremely good all-terrain capability, which was necessary in order to drive over rough ground surfaces strewn with fallen tree trunks. Because of its big unbalanced wheels and high centre of gravity, on-road performance was very poor, especially at high speed.]

cheers, Serg

i did a quick google and it looks like roadless traction were tractor manufactures. kirkstall were/are axle builders and have been swolled by dana.

cheers, serg