Outer Limits 4x4 Board

Im thinking of getting a 4" lift kit (for a QG Patrol LWB) that are on special at the moment for $2000.00. It comprises of :

4 Tough Dog BIG BORE 9 Stage adjustable shocks
4 Tough Dog premium coils (in rates to suit your needs)
Premium ADR approved braided stainless steel extended brake lines
2 Quality adjustable panhard bars
1 Kit three degree castor bushes
1 Tough Dog Return to center steering dampener


It is supposed to be all i need.but is it? I have a niggling feeling that there are other bits i will need.

Also is 3 deg caster enough?

That sounds like everything you need mate. I would recomend you get some heavy duty 3rds lower control arms as well though. The factory nissan ones are as weak as piss.

The 3degree bushes should be enough. I think they skip straight up to 5 degree caster plates from there.

Of course you can always get the caster corrected radius arms such as 3rds, snake racing etc. Drop boxes etc.

Cheers mick.

Your rear coils will be all fucked up and bowing to the back without any pinion angle adjustment. This will also put a heap more load on the seals of the rear shocks generally causing premature failure. Would need upper or lower arms to correct this.

Your steering will also be a little out of wack without a longer drag link.

Will need a longer hose for the rear diff breather also.

Your rear brake bias will be out also without some adjustment.

From my experiences with tough dog coils 4" might be a bit ambitious after a short time due to sag. JMO though.

Most of the things are just minor costs apart from the rear arms. But the arms will definitely need looking at or you will fuck the shocks in a short time
Cheers
Brian

Cheers...i thought that control arms would be needed. So looking into some 3rds.

As for the caster corrected radius arms, ey are on the list just trying to decide between 3rd's or snakeracing

Diff Breathers - Got an extended diff breather kit sitting in the glove box.

Will have to look at the Drag Link, is it worth doing the tie rod as well i.e replace both with adjustable ones like 3rd's?

All starts to add up for maybe some bigger dollars than i expected..might have to save up a bit more.. lol

patrol42 wrote:Cheers...i thought that control arms would be needed. So looking into some 3rds.

As for the caster corrected radius arms, ey are on the list just trying to decide between 3rd's or snakeracing

Diff Breathers - Got an extended diff breather kit sitting in the glove box.

Will have to look at the Drag Link, is it worth doing the tie rod as well i.e replace both with adjustable ones like 3rd's?

All starts to add up for maybe some bigger dollars than i expected..might have to save up a bit more.. lol

I'd go 3rds for everything.

I'd definetly get the lower control arms straight away. The upper ones can be replaced later. I didn't replace these straight away either but only because I was lazy.


I'd be going adjustable rods just in case you deside to put GU diffs in later. I didn't replace my tie rod or drag link until I bent them which was about 2 years after the lift so there really isn't any great rush there.

Cheers Mick.

hey not sure if swb and lwb are the same or not but id think it is

i recently did 4 inch coils & shocks- thats it. i got 3 deg caster bushes but never put them in, everything works / steers fine. Rear springs sit well too. Brake lines didnt need any length. maybe dif breather but mine just stretches.. otherwise everything is still original and works a treat.

All I did do was gear box spacer, you wont need this.

cheers

Well it looks like I wont be getting that kit as there are bits i dont need (ie Adj Panhards as i have them already, steering damper)

This is the new revised list I am trying to get the missus to approve

Tough Dog BIG BORE 9 Stage adjustable shocks
Lovells Platinum Series 4" Coils

3rds Rear Super Duty Lower Trailing Arms
3rds Rear On Car Adjustable Upper Trailing Arms
3rds 12mm Transmission Spacer Kit
3rds Brakeline Extension Kit
3rds Nissan Patrol Billet Drop Arms 3 deg
3rds Extra Heavy Duty Adjustable Drag Link
3rds Extra Heavy Duty Adjustable Tie Rod
Snake Racing Brake Proportioning valve bracket 
Snake Racing Nissan Diff Guard (Front and Rear)

Hopefully it should be quite well sorted once all this is under it.

do you need the spacer's or would it just be good idea to pit them in anyway(tailshaft spacers) is there enough slip in the shaft standard? im thinking of getting the 6 inch lift from tough dog an dwanting to know weather i need to go out and buy spacers also for the tailshaft?

cheers

Rampage wrote: im thinking of getting the 6 inch lift

what tires are you planning on running?? Why do u need 6inch lift?

patrol42 wrote:Well it looks like I wont be getting that kit as there are bits i dont need (ie Adj Panhards as i have them already, steering damper)

This is the new revised list I am trying to get the missus to approve

Tough Dog BIG BORE 9 Stage adjustable shocks
Lovells Platinum Series 4" Coils

3rds Rear Super Duty Lower Trailing Arms
3rds Rear On Car Adjustable Upper Trailing Arms
3rds 12mm Transmission Spacer Kit
3rds Brakeline Extension Kit
3rds Nissan Patrol Billet Drop Arms 3 deg
3rds Extra Heavy Duty Adjustable Drag Link
3rds Extra Heavy Duty Adjustable Tie Rod
Snake Racing Brake Proportioning valve bracket 
Snake Racing Nissan Diff Guard (Front and Rear)

Hopefully it should be quite well sorted once all this is under it.

The Snake drop radius arms are a better design than the 3rd's arms. You also won't need the transmission spacer kit with the adjustable upper control arms with a 4" lift especially on a LWB. I'd also ask for the rear lower control arms to be made 15-20mm longer than standard.

UPDATE - I just won an ebay auction and scored a 3rd's heavy duty adjustable tie fod for $20.50

Thats a good score mate.

I should mention that i've got the toughdog 6 inch lift in mine and I don't have transmission spacers on mine. I never needed them.

I also didn't worry about the tailshaft spacer either I just waited until I cork screwed it and had it lengthened had a heavier tube fitted at the same time which was about $270 from memory but well worth it.

Cheers Mick.

patrol42 wrote:Well it looks like I wont be getting that kit as there are bits i dont need (ie Adj Panhards as i have them already, steering damper)

This is the new revised list I am trying to get the missus to approve

Tough Dog BIG BORE 9 Stage adjustable shocks
Lovells Platinum Series 4" Coils

3rds Rear Super Duty Lower Trailing Arms
3rds Rear On Car Adjustable Upper Trailing Arms
3rds 12mm Transmission Spacer Kit
3rds Brakeline Extension Kit
3rds Nissan Patrol Billet Drop Arms 3 deg
3rds Extra Heavy Duty Adjustable Drag Link
3rds Extra Heavy Duty Adjustable Tie Rod
Snake Racing Brake Proportioning valve bracket
Snake Racing Nissan Diff Guard (Front and Rear)

Hopefully it should be quite well sorted once all this is under it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mate, go with the Snake drop arms, absolutely no doubt....and if you still want 3rd's drop arms.....you can buy mine for a special "get rid of em" price....

muddyperils wrote:

patrol42 wrote:Well it looks like I wont be getting that kit as there are bits i dont need (ie Adj Panhards as i have them already, steering damper)

This is the new revised list I am trying to get the missus to approve

Tough Dog BIG BORE 9 Stage adjustable shocks
Lovells Platinum Series 4" Coils

3rds Rear Super Duty Lower Trailing Arms
3rds Rear On Car Adjustable Upper Trailing Arms
3rds 12mm Transmission Spacer Kit
3rds Brakeline Extension Kit
3rds Nissan Patrol Billet Drop Arms 3 deg
3rds Extra Heavy Duty Adjustable Drag Link
3rds Extra Heavy Duty Adjustable Tie Rod
Snake Racing Brake Proportioning valve bracket
Snake Racing Nissan Diff Guard (Front and Rear)

Hopefully it should be quite well sorted once all this is under it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mate, go with the Snake drop arms, absolutely no doubt....and if you still want 3rd's drop arms.....you can buy mine for a special "get rid of em" price....

whats wrong with them

GQ4.8coilcab wrote:

muddyperils wrote:

patrol42 wrote:Well it looks like I wont be getting that kit as there are bits i dont need (ie Adj Panhards as i have them already, steering damper)

This is the new revised list I am trying to get the missus to approve

Tough Dog BIG BORE 9 Stage adjustable shocks
Lovells Platinum Series 4" Coils

3rds Rear Super Duty Lower Trailing Arms
3rds Rear On Car Adjustable Upper Trailing Arms
3rds 12mm Transmission Spacer Kit
3rds Brakeline Extension Kit
3rds Nissan Patrol Billet Drop Arms 3 deg
3rds Extra Heavy Duty Adjustable Drag Link
3rds Extra Heavy Duty Adjustable Tie Rod
Snake Racing Brake Proportioning valve bracket
Snake Racing Nissan Diff Guard (Front and Rear)

Hopefully it should be quite well sorted once all this is under it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mate, go with the Snake drop arms, absolutely no doubt....and if you still want 3rd's drop arms.....you can buy mine for a special "get rid of em" price....

whats wrong with them

what type of get rid of price

muddyperils wrote:

patrol42 wrote:Well it looks like I wont be getting that kit as there are bits i dont need (ie Adj Panhards as i have them already, steering damper)

This is the new revised list I am trying to get the missus to approve

Tough Dog BIG BORE 9 Stage adjustable shocks
Lovells Platinum Series 4" Coils

3rds Rear Super Duty Lower Trailing Arms
3rds Rear On Car Adjustable Upper Trailing Arms
3rds 12mm Transmission Spacer Kit
3rds Brakeline Extension Kit
3rds Nissan Patrol Billet Drop Arms 3 deg
3rds Extra Heavy Duty Adjustable Drag Link
3rds Extra Heavy Duty Adjustable Tie Rod
Snake Racing Brake Proportioning valve bracket
Snake Racing Nissan Diff Guard (Front and Rear)

Hopefully it should be quite well sorted once all this is under it.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mate, go with the Snake drop arms, absolutely no doubt....and if you still want 3rd's drop arms.....you can buy mine for a special "get rid of em" price....

What is wrong with the 3rds ones i would have though they are a better design as the have the swivel joint on them?

The swivel joint is the problem!

The limiting factor in your front end flex is the torsional forces applied to the diff housing from your radius arms moving in opposite directions so no matter how flexible the pivot at the chassis end it will not flex any more. That said the reason 3rd's arms are not as good is they have no way of absorbing shock loading that occurs at the chassis. The bearing that provides the pivot has no give in it, nor does the bush that fixes the arm at the chassis. This puts a dangerous level of stress on the chassis mount which causes it to fatigue and eventually fail. Incidentally, 3rd's originally designed their arms to run with the original rubber bush at the chassis but they were dangerous on road so they changed their design and replaced it with a solid bush. IMO their design was not well thought out.

Snake arms are a much safer option and provide slightly better flex as the radius from the pivot is slightly longer resulting in slightly less rotation at the diff. Did I mention there isn't much difference between them. The biggest difference in flex between drop boxes or any drop arms is the flexibility of the rubber bushes at the diff end of the radius arms. And pretty much everyone now fits high flex bushes.

Thanks Nelso, I was wonderign what the difference's between teh two arms was. And for the record I went with teh Snake Racing arms, well in fact pretty much everything, radius arms, control arms etc are all from Snake.

and i gotta say, they are a great bunch to deal with. Ordered it all yesterday and its arriving today. I could not recommend them enough.

Also 4wd Direct who i bought the shocks from are on the ball as well. They called me last night to confirm the spring details so they could be sure the shocks will work properly and I had ordered the right ones.

The large majority of the parts for my suspension lift arrived today..

Some pics to wet your appetite..

The drop radius Arms, Brake lines, Brake Proportioning Valve Bracket and Front Sway bar Disconnects.



Springs and Upper and Lower control arms.



and of course the stubby holder and sticker..its a bit blurry from the excitement lol


The EFS ELite shocks are on their way, but i needed to confirm the length and size of the springs first. Adjustable Panhards are already fitted, and I have a 3rds Tie road coming. Will probably fit a 3rds Drag link at some stage as well.

Theres a good job for you on the weekend.

I expect some flex shots by sunday.

Cheers mick.

Mick. wrote:Theres a good job for you on the weekend.

I expect some flex shots by sunday.

Cheers mick.

It depends if the Shocks turn up on time, I was getting a set of EFS Elite , but they wont work properly so have to get some of the EFS Extreme shocks..more $$ of course.

So hopefully this weekend .. fingers crossed.

Look like a nice package.

Are those the Snake 3" drop arms and do they come with the bushes for the website price or did you have to pay extra to have them included/fitted?

Cheers.

yes they are Snake Radius Arms, in fact all the kit there came from Snake racing.

They come with the bushes as the pic shows, however they dont come with the radius Arm to Chassis bushes, so I have ordered a new set of them from Nissan.

The Shocks are from 4wd Direct, and got to say they have impressed me so far by ensuring that their shocks match the springs.

Although I have found out that because its a 4" lift, there is no warranty?? Is this common as they told me that no manufacturer will warranty a 4" lift and up as its considered a comp. setup.

patrol42 wrote:

Although I have found out that because its a 4" lift, there is no warranty?? Is this common as they told me that no manufacturer will warranty a 4" lift and up as its considered a comp. setup.

I'm pretty sure rancho & tough dog warrent them.

Cheers Mick.

You didn't want the Toughdog shocks anyway. From what I hear, they are more trouble than they are worth. Also Ranchos are too small for Patrols. Mine faded within a couple of months. I think you will be a lot happier with the gear you have bought than the original kit you were looking at. It's a well thought out set up and should work well. Cant wait to see pics of you wheeling the new lift and enjoying your more capable rig.

Nelso wrote:You didn't want the Toughdog shocks anyway. From what I hear, they are more trouble than they are worth. Also Ranchos are too small for Patrols. Mine faded within a couple of months. I think you will be a lot happier with the gear you have bought than the original kit you were looking at. It's a well thought out set up and should work well. Cant wait to see pics of you wheeling the new lift and enjoying your more capable rig.

I run tough dogs along with serveral of my mates and we have never had any problems but we had our shock lengths matched to our springs which is what causes most warrenty claims in my opnion.

Cheers Mick.

They are advertised as having internal bumpstops so the wrong length shocks shouldn't cause any problems. The reason I don't like them is every person I know who has run them had problems with them, and a mate who works in a local 4wd shop has told me how they won't order them for anyone anymore as they have had too many returns with them and it was giving them a bad name.

Then there was my own experience with a return to centre steering damper that rusted very quickly (the spring and the shaft!). When I spoke to the rep at a 4wd comp he said to send it back to be replaced. When I did they just painted it a different colour and put a new sticker on it, and put a rubber boot over the spring so you couldn't see the rusty shaft.

Don't get me wrong, I think the idea of larger shocks is on the money, and I was also ready to hand over my hard earned for a set of big bore shocks until I started to hear about the quality control problems they have. If they could admit to having problems with earlier batches and make the effort to improve their manufacturing I would definitely consider them, but at the moment I wouldn't go anywhere near anything with Toughdog on it. If you and your friends were lucky enough to get products that have met your expectations I'm glad to hear of it, but unfortunately mine and my mates experiences were not as fortuitous.

It was also mentioned to me to avoid tough dog , or for that matter any foam shock. From what i know, once they overheat they are pretty much stuffed as the foam starts to break down. just what i have heard been told.

If I ran Rancho's I would need to run a twin shock setup, otherwise I would have warranty issues.

The EFS Extreme, are basically a Truck Shock, valved and re-designed for Heavy and lifted 4wd's. They have a 45mm bore, with a 70mm tube.

I think it should all come together pretty well. The rear Swaybar links are coming off this weekend as they need to be lengthened, just got to find a place to do it.

patrol42 wrote:It was also mentioned to me to avoid tough dog , or for that matter any foam shock. From what i know, once they overheat they are pretty much stuffed as the foam starts to break down. just what i have heard been told.

If I ran Rancho's I would need to run a twin shock setup, otherwise I would have warranty issues.

The EFS Extreme, are basically a Truck Shock, valved and re-designed for Heavy and lifted 4wd's. They have a 45mm bore, with a 70mm tube.

I think it should all come together pretty well. The rear Swaybar links are coming off this weekend as they need to be lengthened, just got to find a place to do it.

Before you get your rear swaybar links extended, try running without the rear swaybar first. I do, as do many people and notice little to no difference.

Keep the front swaybar, but lose the back.

Also, if you could do me a favour. When your shocks arrive, could you please measure and post up the open and closed lengths? (eye centre to eye centre, pin seat to pin seat)

Thanks.

RoldIT wrote: Before you get your rear swaybar links extended, try running without the rear swaybar first. I do, as do many people and notice little to no difference.

Keep the front swaybar, but lose the back.

Also, if you could do me a favour. When your shocks arrive, could you please measure and post up the open and closed lengths? (eye centre to eye centre, pin seat to pin seat)

Thanks.

You may not notice much difference with the rear disconnected (and to be honest I cant in mine) but I think the Engineer may want it connected lol

Will measure the shock length as soon as i get them.