Outer Limits 4x4 Board

More painting queries from the chimp.

If I want to paint some panels in jet black acrylic, and I want them to come up pretty deep and glassy, what's the best approach?

I assume you mean gloss black acrylic? And I assume you mean car/4x4 panels?

Gloss black is a real PITA as it will show EVERY imperfection, so panel prep needs to be 100%. A panelbeater mate of mine won't paint cars gloss black unless the owner wants a show-quality panel finish.

Yes... gloss black. Is it really that hard? The panels are currently pretty good, and I don't mind spending a while sanding, filling, sanding, etc to get them spot on.

But having said that, I'm not aiming for concourse standards or anything, just something acceptable from five feet away

In no means am i trying to put you off but unless your matching an already painted car dont do it !!

black will show every imperfection and ones you didn't even know you had.

if you are a beginer at painting you wont be happy with the out come.

Just a word of advise take it with a grain of salt.

Nick

Thanks... I know black's not recommended for novices but let me put it another way... I *have* to paint these panels in gloss black, so how do I get the best result I can?

yep blacks a bitch, exceot mat black is heaps tops.

It will come off the gun with sum shine anyways, For deepness/wetness clear it after.

Ok, you have stated that you want a good finish but not showroom finish. Thats not hard if you put the time and effort. First i would get them as straight as posible, then prime with a primer/filler, then rub that back. Add another coat of normal primer, give that a light rub back then paint the colour. You will need a few layers of colour. The only way you will get the depth and shine is to make sure you cut and polish at the end.

make sure your panels are to the required standard ( everything will show up but if it doesn't need to be perfect........) prime the panel, paint about 4-5 coats of black mixed 50/50 and let it dry for a couple of days, cut it with 1200 w/d with heaps of water (and dishwashing liquid will help it cut easier) the buff it with a good compound and a foam pad you will also need some form of swirl remover/ finishing glaze to make it look good

If you are sure you want to go ahead - make sure the panelwork is perfect, without even the most minor imperfections (even if you want to end up with an average job).

Use good quality automotive paint - e.g. dulux, and prepare a practice panel before the real thing - so you can get the technique right AND so you can see all the imperfections the black will show up.

ISUZUROVER wrote:If you are sure you want to go ahead - make sure the panelwork is perfect, without even the most minor imperfections (even if you want to end up with an average job).

Use good quality automotive paint - e.g. dulux, and prepare a practice panel before the real thing - so you can get the technique right AND so you can see all the imperfections the black will show up.

Yup... I am going to hone my skills on the removable hard top first. Can sand and start again as many times as I have to.

I have already been practising on the G60 panels and am reasonably confident with both the surface preparation and getting the paint onto the panels okay.... to a modest standard, definitely not claiming to be a pro.

I appreciate all this info, it's all going into my giant brain.

ISUZUROVER wrote:I assume you mean gloss black acrylic?

Nah he means either, jet black is the base black, cheap to being only a base like stark white

Is it any challenge to get a neat matt black finish?

chimpboy wrote:More painting queries from the chimp.

If I want to paint some panels in jet black acrylic, and I want them to come up pretty deep and glassy, what's the best approach?

gloss black = 2 pac only. I did my bundera years ago in acrylic and it turned out ok but its not worth the effort. you can get away with murder with 2 pac. acrylic needs an even undercoat with even porosity - ie not on top of bog, not on top of mixed colours, mixed spray putty / undercoat etc. you need to fill and bog so many times than undercoat (and leave for days between so you do not get sink marks) so many times to hide every mark etc.

from a technical point of view acrylic is acrylic polymer dissolved in solvent. you cannot dissolve more than about 15% acrylic in solvent or it gets too thick to spray so in effect every coat is only 15% actual paint.

2 pac as the name implys is 2 part. the acrylic is in a monomer form and is alot thinner. thus somewhere near 80-90% acrylic can be sprayed as it polymerizes after a few hours when the two parts (paint and isocyanate (making an acrylic urathane)) form polmer chains. It is tougher and thicker upon application and therefor hides better - 2 coats is normally enough vs about 8 in acrylic to match the same thickness.

also every coat has the potential for bugs to stick, runs to occur etc etc so the less coats the better (especially in black which is like a vagas center stage holding a big budget show of your prep / spray/ imperfections).

2 pac self levels also whereas in reality acrylic does not as the solvent evaporates so quickly it (the acrylic is partially dry (of solvent) and even wet (with water droplets if high humidity attracted by the solvent flash) before it hits the surface thus orange peel is far worse - so you will need to flat the surface with 1500 - 2000 and then buff with cutting compound to regain gloss. this helps people with poor gun control fix up their runs later the orange peel of 2k is considered acceptable (just look along a new commodore - not one rub between undercoat to final and its ok by new car specs)

that said acrylics are big in the hot rod industry as they can be buffed to a higher gloss than 2k.

i haven't touched acrylic in about 5 years and i paint often.

2k is also sort of "thermoset" and far more solvent resistant ie petrol etc


I would prep in either single pac (make sure 2k suitable) or 2k undercoat after bogging all small dints with superfelx (also a very fine bog). rub all over (with a block where possible) ensuring all orange peel is removed. finish rubbing with at least 600 (pref finer than 800) wet / dry (with a touch of dish washing liquid and water) rinse with water, spray in the shade with 2k cutting in the edges first than full panels ensuring one even coat is top to bottom and the next coat is side to side (or vs versa). second coat is to be applied after at least 15mins (at 25 degrees C). when spraying DO NOT ATTEMPT TO GET A GLOSS STRAIGHT AWAY - IT WILL RUN) so spray to a light orange peel. it should level in about 5mins. you can add up to 5% thinners but this just makes it run quicker if you are not careful. allow it to cure. i like to remove the masking after about 40mins (be very carful as it will stuff up the paint if you touch it) any longer and i think it tends to pull the paint off. Some say wait till the next day its safer but may chip the edges. assemble after at least 24hours and enjoy.

cheers bru

Can I use the same gun for 2k? It's a gravity fed with, I think, a 2mm needle. I was really happy once I got the hang of using it with acrylic. Don't want to have to buy another gun for this

And, I need to decide if I am actually game to spray 2k or not.

I know you paint a lot Bru, do you really think that a relative novice is okay with 2k vs acrylic?

Hi Chimpboy. Novice speaking here and having sprayed acrylic on and off, 2K is waaaaaaaay better. But you have to get the preparation right. seems like 2K is the reverse of acrylic in some way cause most of the effort goes into the preparation, then just lay on the top/clear coats and enjoy. Acrylic take more effort to finish with many coats required and several hours of cutting and polishing to get a decent finish. I would never use acrylic again.

Also, make sure your 2K colour coat is gounded, as some colours don't cover well and require a dark or coloured grounding coat before top coating. 2K primer is bloody fantastic too. You can lay it on heaps and rub out fairly big imperfections soon after.

You should also get a gun that is suited to 2K. Acrylic guns really don't work that well. Some guns you can get another sized nozzle but guns are so cheap nowadays it pays to buy one suited to 2K - gravity fed preferably as you can reduce spray pressure more and save even more on paint and pollution.

hey mate personally (no suggestions whatsoever to whoever reads this)

i am happy to spray 2k (i used to keep it in the bar fridge outside to keep it on the shelf longer or to use mixed paint the next day). i wear an active carbon respirator (which is needed for acrylic anyway) and use a vent fan. you get sensitive to it accumulatively as with most chemical sensitivities. you feel a bit asthmatic when exposed directly but it goes away. nothing i have read says much beyond sensitivity as far as long term effects go. I think it is a newer product and has newer rules. I am more scared of styrene in polyester resin for example which people use daily without fear - styrene actually dissolves the fatty deposits in the lung walls .

I use a 1.4mm gravity feed. 2mm is ok-ish but 1.4 - 1.6 is better for both acrylic and 2k. supercheap guns are pretty good and are about $100. they are far better than many of the $150 paint shop guns I have thrown in my pile. ( I must have about 8 guns now - kc tools looking after me)

novice with 2k vs acrylic

I think 2k gives a good result (better overall) than acrylic for all but the top handful of rod painters. the biggest novice mistake is spraying to a gloss and causing it to run. the runs remain thick (from above post) as the runs are 80-90% acrylic urathane vs a run of 15% acrylic that shrinks with time. you can get runs with either, acrylic is far softer and thus easier to buff or rub runs out of.

prep as i said before in 2k you can cover 400 grit rub marks (better to use 6-800 in case you get thin sections). acrylic needs a rub of at least 1000 or you will rather WILL see it. also 2k hides (well enough for most jobs) contaminant minor scratches like a grain of sand scratching the work during prep (stuck under the wet / dry) where as acrylic needs another undercoat and rub.

to put it bluntly there is no longer a place fpr acrylic other than:

1) old school try hard wankers that try to spray 2k like acrylic and declare it shite they can buy all the acrylic they want as long as they keep their mouth shut

2) hot rodders who need an orange peel free finish. (with 2k you can match orange peel by adding thinners when matching panels on a repair etc but it is always there)

3) Those that touch up every mark - 2k needs the area to be keyed with 1200 grit before the next layer will stick (as it is cross-linked). acrylic can just be touched and polished. That said 2k is far tougher and i have very few marks through to the paint on chevy smurf, ad 99% would buff out if i had the energy.


i should add too that acrylic is better for you - because you get 5 fold the exercise in rubbing / prep / cut / polishing great for working the gut off -

you can also use it as a simple tool to make your fingers get stuck the wrong way (you have to pull them back to normallity with your other hand)! damn rubbing cramps.

2 k works out cheaper in the long run as it covers better, the undercoat remains at near full volume with vastly reduced sinking, reduced prep etc.

2nd lastly, it is better to not use both acrylic and 2k together on a black car as they expand slightly differently with heat and can craze (like el falcons with the waterbased undercoat and 2k? outer layer).

lastly you need NO CLEAR COAT for some reason every paint shop sells SEE EDIT clear. it is a shite idea for ALL paint types except base coat (no iso c) / top coat (with iso c) 2k that needs the clear to set the base coat - ie my truck and the blue print metallic.

all clear does to solid colours is makes touch ups look like they have been done on top of contact and stuck on, and makes it impossible to polish faded paint, as well as acting like a greenhouse killing the clear / base coat interface - thus causing crazing, flaking etc

edi:t every shop TYRS TO FORCE YOU TO BUY CLEAR!

Yes black gloss is a Bitch, EVERY imperfection shows up, EVERY water streak from a chamois shows up, EVERY spect of dust shows up, But I would'nt have the Hummer any other colour
Hoppy

So apart from the correct nozzle size in the gun is there any other special equipment needed ? A mate painted my old TA23 ceilica in white 2 pack years ago and it came up shmick straight off the gun and we painted it in the open in a carport but i havent used it my self.

chimpboy wrote:Can I use the same gun for 2k? It's a gravity fed with, I think, a 2mm needle. I was really happy once I got the hang of using it with acrylic. Don't want to have to buy another gun for this

And, I need to decide if I am actually game to spray 2k or not.

I know you paint a lot Bru, do you really think that a relative novice is okay with 2k vs acrylic?

The only thing a 2mm nozzle is good for is priming up. I only ever use 1.3 or 1.4 max for colour.

If it's a good quality gavity feed gun (such as Sata,Iwata, Devilbiss) you will be able to buy different sized fluid tip set ups. There usually about a $100 each.

If your using cheaper guns you will probably have to buy a gun with a 1.3mm set up for 2 pack colour.

If you plan to paint this car in 2 pack the only primer you can use under it is 2 pack. As said in an above post the acrylic primer (acrylic never goes hard) under 2 pack will move causing craze.

On dark colours you should always clear them aspecially blacks & reds. The reason for this is dark solid colours don't handle the UV rays of the sun like lighter colours or clear does.

80% of all cars in Australia are cleared these days so there paint holds up to the australian enviroment. You only have to look at cheap cars such as Hyundai exels, Kia's, holden barinas etc that are painted in solid colours and you will see there paint work has gone chalky and is starting to break down.

By rights you should be wearing an airfed resperator for painting 2 pack but if you don't do it everyday a Sunstrom resperator with the correct 2 pack cartriges should be fine.

If you paint 2 Pack to long without the correct gear you can become sensitized to it. This means in servere cases that if someone sprays anything from 2 pack to deodorant or even fly spray anywhere near you, you can just pass out.

When I used to go to tec an apprentice (3rd from memory) had to give the trade away because he was working in a shop that didn't use resperators and he became sensitized. One of my tec teachers also dropped dead from it too and he was only in his early 50s.

Cheers Mick.

On dark colours you should always clear them aspecially blacks & reds. The reason for this is dark solid colours don't handle the UV rays of the sun like lighter colours or clear does.



Generally the darker the colour the better the uv stability. However every colour is a different chemical formula and has family based uv stabilities. most good (very stable) colours are very toxic such as several lead, cadmium , and other heavy metal based chemical states that produce colour. easy to understand examples are green from copper, black / grey titanium in dark beach sand, reddish / brown iron oxides (rust etc) etc etc

Black is very very very uv stable. heat caused by darker colours can cause crazing this has nothing to do with uv rather infra red (heat). white chalks up the worst as they tend not to use 2k for white production cars. clear often has no uv stabilizers and is very poor as close to the entire film thickness wears the uv rather than then just the surface AND is concentrated at the clear / colour interface directly causing crazing THIS IS WHY I WOULD NEVER CLEAR SOLID COLOURS as said above ie only those like blueprint etc that have to be. To up the uv stability of our plastics we add carbon black (where black is suitable) which gives at least a 25 year life to our plastics. titanium dioxide used in our whites is even better and has well over 50 year life.

also there is a new dear as black pigment that does not get hot like normal blacks do. Time will tell if it is any good.

if you use brand name 2k colours, blacks etc they will stand up regardless of colour for at least 10 - 15 years imo. also black helps drive off moisture lessening the "rusting time".

lastly i gave my ski boat a respray in clear after rubbing off all the tired clear resin that had gone green / brown. the boat is blue metal flake. I used spies hecker acrylic and it lasted less than 9 months and started looking ratty, crazed etc. I gave it another rub through the acrylic and used the same acrylic (i had a 4lt tin) - which i added tinuvin uv stabalizer that we use at work (about $700 per kg) at double the normal add rate like a teaspoon to 2lt. 4 years later when i sold the boat it was still perfect. this illustrates that even brand name clears have low loadings of uv stabilizers and are SHITE.

hope this helps

cheers Bru

I think you will find paints and plastics are very different. Clears will always offer more protection over a solid colour always.

Most automotive paints are lead free now except for some red tinters and even then it has vertually none in it.

Reds will always go powdery before whites. You will not find a single automotive painter in Australia that would not clear a black or red or any dark colour. There are other reasons for using clear as well such as easier to buff up, doesn't scratch as easy,better protection etc.

Want an example of black not handling our enviroment have a look at the black door frames on cars you will notice that they always fade before the car because they are solid black.

The reason you don't see to many faded black cars is beacuse they are all clear coated these days.

99% of white cars are painted in 2pack these days if not all.

All clears and solid colours have UV agents in them or they would all fade in a month. The only paints that don't are base coats which require a clear coat.

I've just been reading though Dupont web site (biggest paint & plastics company in the world susposably) and they don't even sell solid colour paints anymore it's all clear over solid base which means all colours are now cleared.

I know PPG, Standox and Spies hecker recomend that all darker colours be cleared as well so i'm guessing it wont be long before all solid colours will be obsolete. Standox & spieshecker are owned by Dupont too.

Cheers Mick.

dogbreath_48 wrote:Is it any challenge to get a neat matt black finish?

Does mat black hide scratches better than normal black?

SIM79 wrote:

dogbreath_48 wrote:Is it any challenge to get a neat matt black finish?

Does mat black hide scratches better than normal black?

No mate it doesn't. It just takes your eye off the dents a bit that's all. Anyone with half an idea what to look for will spot scratches from a mile away.

If doing a respray in Matt black I would do the same prep work as if I was doing a gloss black, metallic, pearl, 3 layer pearl, Harlequin, prismatique or any other special effects colour.

Cheers Mick.

Mick. wrote:

SIM79 wrote:

dogbreath_48 wrote:Is it any challenge to get a neat matt black finish?

Does mat black hide scratches better than normal black?

No mate it doesn't. It just takes your eye off the dents a bit that's all. Anyone with half an idea what to look for will spot scratches from a mile away.

If doing a respray in Matt black I would do the same prep work as if I was doing a gloss black, metallic, pearl, 3 layer pearl, Harlequin, prismatique or any other special effects colour.

Cheers Mick.

What if, for example, I were to paint the dinged up bonnet on my troopy - not overly concerned with looks so long as the finish is consistent and not going to fade/blemish in patches. Hard for an amateur? A mare painted his EH matt black and it looked like shit within a few months

-Stu

dogbreath_48 wrote:

Mick. wrote:

SIM79 wrote:

dogbreath_48 wrote:Is it any challenge to get a neat matt black finish?

Does mat black hide scratches better than normal black?

No mate it doesn't. It just takes your eye off the dents a bit that's all. Anyone with half an idea what to look for will spot scratches from a mile away.

If doing a respray in Matt black I would do the same prep work as if I was doing a gloss black, metallic, pearl, 3 layer pearl, Harlequin, prismatique or any other special effects colour.

Cheers Mick.

What if, for example, I were to paint the dinged up bonnet on my troopy - not overly concerned with looks so long as the finish is consistent and not going to fade/blemish in patches. Hard for an amateur? A mare painted his EH matt black and it looked like shit within a few months

-Stu

Most matt blacks are porous meaning they absorb water causing rust and they also have no UV protection what so ever which is the reason it's cheap. If we where doing a respray in a matt black I would be using a black base coat (same as gloss) and clearing it with a normal 2 pack clear but mixed with a matting base.

Matting base is just an additive that you can add to a solid colour or a clear and it send it dull. The more you put in the duller it goes. This is also how we match engine bay colours on new cars.

You can also buy a matt Black which is designed for Hot Rods which has UV protection and is non Porous. I'm not 100% sure on the price but I think it's about $100 a litre and reqires a hardener. You may be able to buy it in a kit too.

Cheers Mick.

Mick. wrote:

dogbreath_48 wrote:

Mick. wrote:

SIM79 wrote:

dogbreath_48 wrote:Is it any challenge to get a neat matt black finish?

Does mat black hide scratches better than normal black?

No mate it doesn't. It just takes your eye off the dents a bit that's all. Anyone with half an idea what to look for will spot scratches from a mile away.

If doing a respray in Matt black I would do the same prep work as if I was doing a gloss black, metallic, pearl, 3 layer pearl, Harlequin, prismatique or any other special effects colour.

Cheers Mick.

What if, for example, I were to paint the dinged up bonnet on my troopy - not overly concerned with looks so long as the finish is consistent and not going to fade/blemish in patches. Hard for an amateur? A mare painted his EH matt black and it looked like shit within a few months

-Stu

Most matt blacks are porous meaning they absorb water causing rust and they also have no UV protection what so ever which is the reason it's cheap. If we where doing a respray in a matt black I would be using a black base coat (same as gloss) and clearing it with a normal 2 pack clear but mixed with a matting base.

Matting base is just an additive that you can add to a solid colour or a clear and it send it dull. The more you put in the duller it goes. This is also how we match engine bay colours on new cars.

You can also buy a matt Black which is designed for Hot Rods which has UV protection and is non Porous. I'm not 100% sure on the price but I think it's about $100 a litre and reqires a hardener. You may be able to buy it in a kit too.

Cheers Mick.

Great tech - thank's Mick