Fuel pump for lifting fuel to surge tank

[bubs]

What in line electric fuel pump have people used to pump fuel from there fuel tank up to there surge tank. I need to install one as I am having problems with fuel stavation on any sort of slope in my hilux. I run a 60L baffeled fuel cell atm.

Buddy

[GQ TROL]

We've fitted a few Holley "Blue" elec pumps with pressure reg (about 8psi rings a bell) to pump up to surge tank in turbo diesel GQ's.

These are a bit exxy though, so if someone can find a cheaper alternative, I'd like to know.

[RED60]

VL commodore. They're external to tank, cheap and plentiful.

[Turbz]

Carter I think they are called. Quality is as good, and MUCH quieter from memory. Holley's can get noisy if i'm not mistaken.

I had a mazda years ago and ran 2 x carters ( to surge tank ) and 2 x malpassi's, to a rising rate reg.

But for low pressure with nice volume a carter would be my choice. If a reg is extra do you need one? A surge tank will have an overflow ( return ).

Good luck.

[MART]

Petol or diesel,can,t tell,also if petrol is it injected,Cheers.Paul.

[Red_Zook]

VL pumps!!
cheep $110 new!
will surply alota fuel! i ran one on my pulsar over 200kws easy no leaning 20psi boost
Phil

[cloughy]

VL commodore. They're external to tank, cheap and plentiful.

VL pumps!!
cheep $110 new!
will surply alota fuel! i ran one on my pulsar over 200kws easy no leaning 20psi boost
Phil

TO THE SURGE TANK, you need simply any LOW PRESSURE pump, best i find to use is the little solid state facett pumps, the little square ticker pumps, 70 buck new and last forever

Remember the lift pump need only fill the tank and these will do the job perfeclty

[WRXZook]

I use a facet lift pump (about $90 from Supercheap) to feed the surge tank and a VL pump to feed the injectors (5 litre Commodore engine). The lift pump is good for 12-14 inches of lift which is fine if mounted near the top of the tank. The facet is a bit noisy if you are standing beside it, but I have it mounted directly without rubber insulation. The main factor with lift pumps is their lift rating. Whilst the external VL efi pump is used as both a lift pump and high pressure supply (without a surge tank) by some it is not a suction pump and is more prone to failure in this usage.

The Facet pump I use is the black pump in this picture. Click to enlarge.

[chops]

series 2 bluebird - pump mounted under body, near diff

pretty much any low pressure pump will do, if it's feeding a surge tank

[Dane]

I used one off a sigma or similar mid sixed jap car, mounted near the fuel tank up under the floor. About $25 from the wreckers and last forever. Agree with what cloughy said. Small lift pump to the tank, diaphram type, then use the VL pump to supply the fuel rail if injected.

Nice surge tank WRXZook.

[bubs]

I used one off a sigma or similar mid sixed jap car, mounted near the fuel tank up under the floor. About $25 from the wreckers and last forever. Agree with what cloughy said. Small lift pump to the tank, diaphram type, then use the VL pump to supply the fuel rail if injected.

Nice surge tank WRXZook.

I currently only run a VL inline pump works great on flat ground

[RUFF]

If you havent allready bought one then this pump will do the job perfectly- http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Electric-Fule-Pu ... dZViewItem

Not sure on the Quality though.

Or these ones as mentioned above-
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FACET-FUEL-PUMP_ ... dZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ELECTRIC-FUEL-PU ... dZViewItem

[chimpboy]

I have just fitted EFI to a rover motor (previously carby) with no surge tank. So I could use a bit of a backgrounder if anyone can be bothered.

The last EFI car I did extensive work on had a surge tank that was effectively gravity-fed from the main fuel tank, it was 100% physically lower down and fed by a fairly fat pipe, the fuel pump was then after that and did the work.

With the conversion I have just done, the tank had offered no option like this, so all I have done is set the EFI pump (stolen from a commodore) to pull fuel through the original fuel outlet at the top of the fuel tank.

I am conscious that this is not 100% ideal since it is making the pump suck pretty hard, which I guess is going to make it more likely to underfuel occasionally.

So anyway, I am looking at the photos above and still don't quite get it, you are using a low pressure pump to lift fuel to a surge tank; fair enough but what happens once the EFI pump starts running, it is going to empty the surge tank a lot faster than the low pressure pump could possibly fill it. So is the idea that the surge tank is completely pressurised and therefore the EFI pump effectively pulls fuel from the main tank anyway? Or are you running the fuel return line into the surge tank instead of into the main tank?

What's the go? Ideally I would like a reliable setup that still lets me pull fuel from the top of the original (non-EFI) fuel tank, or is it just a fact of life that I am going to have to get my fuel tank modified so I can pull fuel from the bottom of it instead?

[mrx78u]

Ah you see... Volume and pressure are not the same thing, you should try to match the flow rates fairly closely between your lift/main pump. Also bearing in mind that you should use a fuel return from the injector rail back to the surge tank, and a return from the surge tank to the fuel tank. Your pumps will be able to cycle more fuel than your injectors are spraying into the engine, therefore you should theoretically have a constant fuel supply, as long as you're not injecting more fuel than you can pump. (You'd be in trouble is you were)

If you're not running a return from your fuel rail back to your surge tank, then you're probably going to have some fuel pressure issues, and you'll probably need to start running to avoid the inevitable fire, which wont happen because your injectors wont work, and therefore your engine wont start...

More directly, your fuel lines will likely be primed anyway, but then the EFI pump starts, you will be pumping fuel straight back into the surge tank.

[chimpboy]

Ah you see... Volume and pressure are not the same thing, you should try to match the flow rates fairly closely between your lift/main pump. Also bearing in mind that you should use a fuel return from the injector rail back to the surge tank, and a return from the surge tank to the fuel tank. Your pumps will be able to cycle more fuel than your injectors are spraying into the engine, therefore you should theoretically have a constant fuel supply, as long as you're not injecting more fuel than you can pump. (You'd be in trouble is you were)

If you're not running a return from your fuel rail back to your surge tank, then you're probably going to have some fuel pressure issues, and you'll probably need to start running to avoid the inevitable fire, which wont happen because your injectors wont work, and therefore your engine wont start...

More directly, your fuel lines will likely be primed anyway, but then the EFI pump starts, you will be pumping fuel straight back into the surge tank.

Cool, your description of the return lines works for me. If the return line from the injector rail goes to the surge tank, and the surge tank also has a return line to the fuel tank, then it all makes sense to me.

[WRXZook]

Schematic, doesn't show filters and of course the pump from the fuel tank is the lift pump and the pump from the surge tank is high pressure.

[cloughy]

Very helpful pic for those who dont know, keep in mind the upper most fitting on the surge tank is the one that returns to the tank

[chimpboy]

That's an excellent schematic, thank you.

[bru21]

I have a bosh motorsport pump on mine which seems to work well without a surge tank. I would like to fit one for piece of mind. Could I just run a tank below the main tank which is gravity fed, with the return line going to the surge tank and a one way valve fitted to the surge tank overflow line (to stop the pump sucking through the return line). Or should I get a lift pump.

[WRXZook]

The lift pump is only there to fill the surge tank. If gravity will do the same job, why not, as long as your feed line flows enough fuel to keep the surge tank full during maximum fuel usage. It's a bit late and I might not be thinking straight, but why would you need the one way valve. The high pressure pick up is at the bottom and the return to tank at the top, it won't try to suck through the return line unless the surge tank is (almost) empty and by that time the engine has stopped.

There is one other aspect to using a lift pump which some of the serious high performance people think might help a little in extreme circumstances. Think about convection, hot rising, cool falling. The lift pump is always cycling cool fuel from the main tank into the surge tank which displaces the hotter fuel returned from the engine, forcing it back into the tank to cool. Not important to us but some like to have every little thing going for them when it comes to expensive, high performance engines.

I would put a filter between the main tank and the surge tank to keep the muck out. A filter is easier to change than removing and cleaning out the surge tank and ensures clean fuel to the hp pump. I use a cheap Ryco filter on the lp side and an applicable efi filter between the hp pump and the engine.

For some people it may be simpler and cheaper to look for an efi tank which already has the surge tank and hp pump built in.

[chimpboy]

I have a bosh motorsport pump on mine which seems to work well without a surge tank. I would like to fit one for piece of mind. Could I just run a tank below the main tank which is gravity fed, with the return line going to the surge tank and a one way valve fitted to the surge tank overflow line (to stop the pump sucking through the return line). Or should I get a lift pump.

That's my feeling too, it works fine atm but all it takes is to go lean at high revs and you can really do some damage. And there is no warning light that comes on for that unless you have an air/fuel ratio gauge in the cabin - and a good one of those is pricey too.

I also see no reason for a one way valve anywhere. The only critical item in the whole system is that the EFI pump gets enough incoming fuel to keep the fuel rail at the right pressure, and exactly how everything flows around, apart from that, is just a non-issue.

On my XJ-S, which as you can imagine sucked a fair bit of fuel to feed the V12, the surge tank was gravity fed and sat below the main tank. However, note that the hose down to the surge tank was a LOT bigger than the hose from the fuel pump to the rail. If the hose isn't fat enough it sort of defeats the purpose of having a surge tank I think. So, since it's all about peace of mind, I would probably want the lifting pump as well.

Now a question - can anyone suggest a good surge tank donor at a wrecker? I don't really need a bling bling aluminium ricer surge tank, anything'll do me especially if it comes with a lift pump too.

[cloughy]

Nothing really comes with a surge tank that i know of, they all have an internal swirl pot

[WRXZook]

Nothing really comes with a surge tank that i know of, they all have an internal swirl pot

Yes, I should have said swirl pot. I think it is a better way to go because it does the same job as the surge tank (you will see a surge tank often referred to as a swirl pot as well) and keeps the main components protected from mud etc.

[chimpboy]

TO THE SURGE TANK, you need simply any LOW PRESSURE pump, best i find to use is the little solid state facett pumps, the little square ticker pumps, 70 buck new and last forever

Remember the lift pump need only fill the tank and these will do the job perfeclty

Sorry about the grave-dig but I want to install a surge tank to the Rover V8 mentioned above. I have a commodore EFI pump supplying fuel to the rail but it's currently pulling fuel directly out of the fuel tank.

First would the following ones be suitable as a lift pump:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Facet-electronic ... dZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Facet-Electric-F ... dZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FACET-High-Volum ... dZViewItem

Or would the original lucas low pressure pump that fed the holley carby be suitable anyway? That lifted fuel out of the tank and sent it all the way to the engine. It was low pressure but do ordinary fuel pumps supply adequate volume? Or should I just buy the fifty dollar facet one?

[cloughy]

Nothing really comes with a surge tank that i know of, they all have an internal swirl pot

Yes, I should have said swirl pot. I think it is a better way to go because it does the same job as the surge tank (you will see a surge tank often referred to as a swirl pot as well) and keeps the main components protected from mud etc.

Yes I know they're ona and the same

[cloughy]

TO THE SURGE TANK, you need simply any LOW PRESSURE pump, best i find to use is the little solid state facett pumps, the little square ticker pumps, 70 buck new and last forever

Remember the lift pump need only fill the tank and these will do the job perfeclty

Sorry about the grave-dig but I want to install a surge tank to the Rover V8 mentioned above. I have a commodore EFI pump supplying fuel to the rail but it's currently pulling fuel directly out of the fuel tank.

First would the following ones be suitable as a lift pump:

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Facet-electronic ... dZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Facet-Electric-F ... dZViewItem
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/FACET-High-Volum ... dZViewItem

Or would the original lucas low pressure pump that fed the holley carby be suitable anyway? That lifted fuel out of the tank and sent it all the way to the engine. It was low pressure but do ordinary fuel pumps supply adequate volume? Or should I just buy the fifty dollar facet one?

The original will be fine and will flow enough, remember with a surge tank you will have 1-2L at the high pressure pumps disposal, you wont use all that and be relying on the lift pump after a burst from the almighty bid block rover

[`maddog]

I used a Carter pre-pump to pump from the main tank to the surge tank then a Bosch (cant remember which model) to supply from the surge tank to the fuel rail.

This was for a 97 Jeep Wrangler.

The Carter wasn't expensive from memory. The Bosch's can be.

[chimpboy]

The original will be fine and will flow enough, remember with a surge tank you will have 1-2L at the high pressure pumps disposal, you wont use all that and be relying on the lift pump after a burst from the almighty bid block rover

Thanks!

I'll just use the old one. So basically, any old fuel pump from an old carby car will do this job?

[cloughy]

The original will be fine and will flow enough, remember with a surge tank you will have 1-2L at the high pressure pumps disposal, you wont use all that and be relying on the lift pump after a burst from the almighty bid block rover

Thanks!

I'll just use the old one. So basically, any old electric fuel pump from an old carby car will do this job?

[Zac Zec]

You need to get a pump that goes in your tank to supply the surge tank IMO. The facet style pump is fine but if the pump loses fuel supply for some reason then you will have to prime the pump again for it to start sucking, whereas if it is in the tank it is submerged.
Example: If you have say 1/4 tank of juice and your on a big f@# off hill then the pump supplying the sugre tank may suck air for a bit (which is fine because have the surge tank full of fuel) then when it goes to try and suck the fuel again it will suck air and not work. If the pump is in the tank then even if it loses fuel for a minute or 2 then it will be covered in fuel and suck fine again
My thoughts only
2c