running a 15 amp welder of a 10 amp socket ???

[carts]

The issue here is you can potentially melt the 10amp rated powerpoint or the plug top. These are rated 10 amps regardless of what the rest of the circuit is capable of carrying. IT is not legal to do so.

Bingo. Most power circuits are rated at 16A these days. In other words, the wiring and associated breakers are capable of carrying at least 16A continuously. More than 16A can be used at any one time, but only for short periods. The problem with this is the fact that a 10A socket outlet is only rated to carry 10A continously, and will infact get quite hot if you draw more than this for extended periods. The heating and cooling effect has a tendency to loosen screws in the powerpoints over time, and eventually you will get what is known as a high resistance connection. In short, I've seen many socket outlets completely fried from this.

Will your welder burn your house down over night? No.
Is it worthwhile installing a 15A GPO? Definately.

[CV Smasher]

"10amp breaker fitted for some reason (pretty much every house being built the sparky uses 10 amp temporary breakers which is farking annoying when your trying to weld 15mm pfc's and can only run your welder at 100amp.)
"

My point exactly

yeh, except when a house is completed, the power circuits are fitted with 16amp breakers. You can draw 16amps from a single powerpoint, just nothing else can be using that circuit at the same time.

Infact, its quite legal to fit a 15amp powerpoint in place of an existing 10amp powerpoint.

The reason a sparky will suggest a dedicated line, is to allow the user the flexibility to draw the full 15amps all the time if needed, without having to worry abvout other devices on the circuit.

Many commercial settings such as shops and the like will have a 15amp PO fitted in place of a 10amp PO if something requires the 15amp point, and in the sparky's opinion other devices on the circuit are not going to trip the breaker.

I think you should check the AS3000 rule book again if you think what you are stating is legal.
I am a sparky and do not believe it is in anyones best interest to take electrical advice from people not trained to give it especially on a forum. A good sparky will not tell you it is ok to file down an earth pin. You should only rely on advice from professional.
ELECTRICITY IS DANGEROUS!

Try and explian to your insurance company and family why your house burnt to the ground............. is it worth saving a few dollars by cutting corners?????

I think you should read my post again, and then take your foot out of your mouth.

I have said my piece. I would hate for someone to take the wrong advice and get hurt or injured.

[Shadow]

"10amp breaker fitted for some reason (pretty much every house being built the sparky uses 10 amp temporary breakers which is farking annoying when your trying to weld 15mm pfc's and can only run your welder at 100amp.)
"

My point exactly

yeh, except when a house is completed, the power circuits are fitted with 16amp breakers. You can draw 16amps from a single powerpoint, just nothing else can be using that circuit at the same time.

Infact, its quite legal to fit a 15amp powerpoint in place of an existing 10amp powerpoint.

The reason a sparky will suggest a dedicated line, is to allow the user the flexibility to draw the full 15amps all the time if needed, without having to worry abvout other devices on the circuit.

Many commercial settings such as shops and the like will have a 15amp PO fitted in place of a 10amp PO if something requires the 15amp point, and in the sparky's opinion other devices on the circuit are not going to trip the breaker.

I think you should check the AS3000 rule book again if you think what you are stating is legal.
I am a sparky and do not believe it is in anyones best interest to take electrical advice from people not trained to give it especially on a forum. A good sparky will not tell you it is ok to file down an earth pin. You should only rely on advice from professional.
ELECTRICITY IS DANGEROUS!

Try and explian to your insurance company and family why your house burnt to the ground............. is it worth saving a few dollars by cutting corners?????

I think you should read my post again, and then take your foot out of your mouth.

I have said my piece. I would hate for someone to take the wrong advice and get hurt or injured.

where did i say filing a earth pin down, or fitting a 10amp plug toa 15amp device is legal?

Oh, I didnt...

[CV Smasher]

yeh, except when a house is completed, the power circuits are fitted with 16amp breakers. You can draw 16amps from a single powerpoint, just nothing else can be using that circuit at the same time.

Infact, its quite legal to fit a 15amp powerpoint in place of an existing 10amp powerpoint.

The reason a sparky will suggest a dedicated line, is to allow the user the flexibility to draw the full 15amps all the time if needed, without having to worry abvout other devices on the circuit.

Many commercial settings such as shops and the like will have a 15amp PO fitted in place of a 10amp PO if something requires the 15amp point, and in the sparky's opinion other devices on the circuit are not going to trip the breaker.

I think you should check the AS3000 rule book again if you think what you are stating is legal.
I am a sparky and do not believe it is in anyones best interest to take electrical advice from people not trained to give it especially on a forum. A good sparky will not tell you it is ok to file down an earth pin. You should only rely on advice from professional.
ELECTRICITY IS DANGEROUS!

Try and explian to your insurance company and family why your house burnt to the ground............. is it worth saving a few dollars by cutting corners?????

I think you should read my post again, and then take your foot out of your mouth.

I have said my piece. I would hate for someone to take the wrong advice and get hurt or injured.

where did i say filing a earth pin down, or fitting a 10amp plug toa 15amp device is legal?

Oh, I didnt...

I wasn't refering to you saying that that filing down an earth pin was legal i was refering to onother post. I was refering to your statment that replacing a 10amp power point with a 15amp one is legal.

Leave electircity to the professionals not the backyard butchers.

[Shadow]

I think you should check the AS3000 rule book again if you think what you are stating is legal.
I am a sparky and do not believe it is in anyones best interest to take electrical advice from people not trained to give it especially on a forum. A good sparky will not tell you it is ok to file down an earth pin. You should only rely on advice from professional.
ELECTRICITY IS DANGEROUS!

Try and explian to your insurance company and family why your house burnt to the ground............. is it worth saving a few dollars by cutting corners?????

I think you should read my post again, and then take your foot out of your mouth.

I have said my piece. I would hate for someone to take the wrong advice and get hurt or injured.

where did i say filing a earth pin down, or fitting a 10amp plug toa 15amp device is legal?

Oh, I didnt...

I wasn't refering to you saying that that filing down an earth pin was legal i was refering to onother post. I was refering to your statment that replacing a 10amp power point with a 15amp one is legal.

Leave electircity to the professionals not the backyard butchers.

Care to point to the section of the AS3000 that prohibits the fitment of 15amp power points on a general power circuit?

The maximum demand calculations tend to indicate it cant be done, but there is a provision in the 2000 AS3000 called something like "reasonable Use" which says something like as long as the circuit isnt likely to be overloaded in normal use it can be done. Perhaps in the older 91 version the provosion wasnt there.

[jop]

not weighing into the argument, but i can't find anything about changing 10A to 15A points in the 'new' rule book. ( it used to be in the 'old' one)
guess it just has to be fit for purpose.

i will be happy to be shown a clause no.

[carts]

not weighing into the argument, but i can't find anything about changing 10A to 15A points in the 'new' rule book. ( it used to be in the 'old' one)
guess it just has to be fit for purpose.

i will be happy to be shown a clause no.

There is no clause in AS3000 that prohibits a 15A socket outlet from being substituted for a 10A outlet.

The requirement for AS3000 is that the circuit is safe, functions as intended and is compatible with supply. ( Clause 1.8.1)

As far as circuit arrangement goes, you must avoid danger and minimise inconvenience in the event of a fault and facilitate safe operation. This takes into consideration maximum demand on the circuit. (Clause 1.8.5)

If you have a copy of AS/NZS 3018- Electrical Installations: Domestic Installations, you can read further into this. In short, there is no mandatory requirement for a 15A outlet to be installed on its own circuit. It is permissable to have it on a mixed circuit providing maximum demand is taken into consideration. It is recommended from guidance table C1 that no more than 1 15A outlet should be installed on a 16A circuit that has more than 1 10A outlet. It gets too confusing to explain. In reality though, you can put as many as you like, providing it operates in the manner intended.

The only requirement for separated circuits comes from Clause 6.6.4 (AS 3018) that requires socket outlets rated at or exceeding 20A to be supplied by individual subcircuits.

Get a sparky to install a 15A outlet that will operate as you need it to.

[jop]

like i thought
i am an industrial sparky

[Hof]

not weighing into the argument, but i can't find anything about changing 10A to 15A points in the 'new' rule book. ( it used to be in the 'old' one)
guess it just has to be fit for purpose.

i will be happy to be shown a clause no.

There is no clause in AS3000 that prohibits a 15A socket outlet from being substituted for a 10A outlet.

The requirement for AS3000 is that the circuit is safe, functions as intended and is compatible with supply. ( Clause 1.8.1)

As far as circuit arrangement goes, you must avoid danger and minimise inconvenience in the event of a fault and facilitate safe operation. This takes into consideration maximum demand on the circuit. (Clause 1.8.5)

If you have a copy of AS/NZS 3018- Electrical Installations: Domestic Installations, you can read further into this. In short, there is no mandatory requirement for a 15A outlet to be installed on its own circuit. It is permissable to have it on a mixed circuit providing maximum demand is taken into consideration. It is recommended from guidance table C1 that no more than 1 15A outlet should be installed on a 16A circuit that has more than 1 10A outlet. It gets too confusing to explain. In reality though, you can put as many as you like, providing it operates in the manner intended.

The only requirement for separated circuits comes from Clause 6.6.4 (AS 3018) that requires socket outlets rated at or exceeding 20A to be supplied by individual subcircuits.

Get a sparky to install a 15A outlet that will operate as you need it to.

Pretty much spot on.. Same reason nearly all domestic houses have around 5-10 Double GPO's on each circuit, technically you should be able to draw 10A out of each socket, could be upto 100A, though this is never the case, usually a tv, video, clock etc etc all drawing WAY less than 10A.. "so the circuit works in a reasonable manner on a 16 or 20A breaker"

Cheers,

Hof

[ausoops]

anyone got the new as3000:2007 yet?

[carts]

anyone got the new as3000:2007 yet?

only in draft copy.....its more like the old wiring rules (1991), as in its a little more prescriptive. It doesnt leave as much to the imagination.

[Shadow]

anyone got the new as3000:2007 yet?

only in draft copy.....its more like the old wiring rules (1991), as in its a little more prescriptive. It doesnt leave as much to the imagination.

did you have to pay for the draft?

[carts]

anyone got the new as3000:2007 yet?

only in draft copy.....its more like the old wiring rules (1991), as in its a little more prescriptive. It doesnt leave as much to the imagination.

did you have to pay for the draft?

no. downloaded it from the standards website if i remember correctly. it was open to review. I'm not sure if that is the case now though.

[dumbdunce]

Get a sparky to install a 15A outlet that will operate as you need it to.

cool, Carts, can you come and install me a 15A outlet in teh shed? I need it to operate for free and deliver an endless supply of high quality electricity from thin air. in fact I will be making a male/male extension lead so I can plug the house in and run that for free too

[carts]

Get a sparky to install a 15A outlet that will operate as you need it to.

cool, Carts, can you come and install me a 15A outlet in teh shed? I need it to operate for free and deliver an endless supply of high quality electricity from thin air. in fact I will be making a male/male extension lead so I can plug the house in and run that for free too [/b]

Anything is possible at the right price. The only part that concerns me is the male to male bit.

[dumbdunce]

The only part that concerns me is the male to male bit.

you told me you loved a bit of bum action!