TOUGH TRACKS RD3 2007

[andy & di]

OMG !!!


I have just spent the last 45mins reading all the posts, and all I can say is OMG.

You know people you are all interested in competing in a competition which I think is great, but lets just say for a miniute that someone was seriouly hurt be it either competitor or spectator and it was caused from a vehicle that was competing that hadn't complied with the rules, yet still competed knowing that they didnt comply, this would make the club liable to be sued for personal damages and possible the driver of the vehicle too. And the Insurance would be NULL and VOID

In all fairness and all bull$hit aside rules are rules, and in all areas of work and play there are rules, it is part of life, changes need to be made from time to time for many reasons and most of the time these changes are excepted, the only reason you are all whinging now is because you have not been complying with the rules in the first place.

There are so many competitors that have been breaking rules to suit themselves for some time now, and it is about time that the club does start policing them.

Yea I agree maybe another class is needed, but again there will be rules with this class too, and they will need to be changed from time to time too as is neccessary!

For god sake instead of critising the people doing all the hard work to make this comp sucessfull for you the competitors, be constructive and get involved in the committee and help out.

I am sure if you all saw the other side of the coin, all the behind the scenes stuff that needs to be done before and during all comps you wouldnt be complaining - (on no sorry you would, yeah you would be running a mile because it would be all to hard for you to do).

As someone who has been on the committee of this club and another and been involved in this competition I am disgusted at some of the comments that have been made on this forum about the Tough Track Competition and the organinsers.

IF YOU THINK YOU CAN DO A BETTER JOB, THEN GO RIGHT AHEAD.


Ok I have finished my rant now, if anyone would like to comment regarding the above rant please do so by PM Only!!.


Di Grant

[MissGU]

I might have to use the Navara for the weekend!

Now who has lockers for a D40 and not CIG ones either

We have a spare rear LSD from the front of our GQ !!

Yours with another set of doors should be OK shouldn't it Lynda??

What else have you done ??

Nothing that i am aware of.. Just want to make sure i'm playing by the rules!
Cheers Peter, Will come see you one Saturday

[The Big Green Meany]

Clarifacation Required please ...GU DIFF in A GQ... allowed???? new rule inplies no?

[bowtie landie]

Hi Darren

a GU front diff in a GQ is OK - in a previous post I wrote:-

'A GQ coil sprung vehicle had front & rear track of 1530mm and 1535mm respectively.

The 3L DX GU Wagon had 1555 and 1575mm track respectively.

source:-
Genuine Nissan Service Manual GQ
and Nissan Australia internet site GU Patrols'

It's with-in the 50mm requirement for DOT Approval. I'm still trying to find out if it actually requires an engineer's certifcate as no engineering (design of modification) is actually done. It just bolts straight in - Nissan to Nissan.

On a live axle vehicle, you are allowed to increase your track width by upto 50mm with-out certification by utilising wider rims with greater offset, so I can't see why the GU diff would be any different. I WILL find out & let you know.

Peter K.

[BIG GQ]

I realize that the rules have been written within a short time frame to allow for them to be published so everyone knows what is required but the wording of some rules really does need to be looked at.

3.4.3 AXLES & HUBS

Axle housings are free.
Axle internal components are free.
Hubs are free.
Portal axles or drop hubs and Reduction hubs are not allowed.
Axle housing up grades shall be DOT plated


A GU front diff fitted to a GQ IS considered an axle housing up grade and under the current wording of the rules shall(Mandatory - no room to deviate from rule) needs to be D.O.T blue plated

3.4.8 STEERING

Steering boxes are free but shall be securely fastened to the chassis.
Steering linkages and components are free and may have protection fitted to them.
• Non standard factory Hydraulic assisted steering shall not be used
• All vehicles shall have manufacturer’s steering system design (eg mechanical steering column can not be changed to motor driven steering box)
• Full Hydro steering shall not be used
• Steering up grades shall be DOT plated

Again a GU steering box fitted to a GQ IS considered an up grade and under the current wording of the rules shall(Mandatory - no room to deviate from rule) needs to be D.O.T blue plated

[Pegboy2000]

Di, i think most competitors, like me, are annoyed at the fact these changes (and they're not all safety/insurance related) have come into force halfway through the season, with only 5 odd weeks till the next competiton.

personally i wont be competing again, because my vehicle never see's the road anymore, i dont wish to outlay hundreds of $$$'s for blue plates which wont make it legal anyway, due to everyone you talk to at qld transport having a different opinion on whats what

[bowtie landie]

Hi Linc, you're right. Possibly what we should have written is:-

All upgrades that require DOT Approval shall have DOT Approval. Some upgrades do not require DOT Approval, and some do.

I'm still trying to find out if GU into GQ front diffs requires an approval as there is a physical difference (ie track width), where as a GU Diff into an 80# would definately require a DOT Approval because engineering modifications are required. My GQ Diff into my Landrover Defender requires DOT Approval.

Steering box from a GU to GQ, when the later GQs came out with the same box, would be considered to be an upgrade performed by Nissan itself. It requires no engineering in design and has no effect on any other regulation - hence no DOT Approval would be required.

At the next Rules Update I will have the wording changed so that it says:-
All upgrades that require DOT Approval shall have DOT Approval.

As you said - they were put together fairly quickly to get them out there.

Thanks Linc

Peter K.

[RUFF]

I can see one problem your going to have with this Peter. There are going to be guys that will turn up saying that this or that mod doesnt need a Blue plate because thats what their mod guy told them. Its a known fact that is even showing here that some guys that do Mod plates have more knowledge than others on what does and doesnt need to be mod plated.

How will you police this problem? As we all know not even QLD Transport know what needs to be moded and what doesnt.

Please dont get me wrong im all for these rules i just think your going to find it even harder to police fairly.

[bowtie landie]

Hi Tony - yes we do run that risk.

You have PM

Peter K.

[green4x4]

i find it funny that the same questions are being asked so many times by the same people to different people!!!! isnt that question answered once by some one who is in the know enough?? you know who you are!!

[sloshy]

Iv'e been ringing up and asking alot of people trying to find someone
to tell me what I can plate and what has to be engineered in my 94 lux.
And like its already been said, one opinion is differant to the next.
The only two things I am stuck on is shock hoops and crossover steering, you can not blue plate these they have to be engineered and engineering comes at a price and not a cheap one.

And the one that confuses me

3.4.13 CHASSIS

The original chassis for that make of vehicle shall be used.
• Strengthening with the additional bracing is acceptable.
• Spring and shock absorber mountings may be strengthened.
• Protection plates may be added for strengthening and protection purposes.
• Chassis can be modified.

And then in BODY

Body chops shall be DOT plated

Why do you have to DOT approve a body chop and not the chassis if you modify it.
Any chassis mod has to be engineered even a non standard shock mount.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for complying with your rules, insurance etc
but the rules and regs attack some things but not others.
If you want to comply with DOT even 35's on a nissan is illegal, so if you let them run what is the differance to letting me run with cross over?

What I'm getting at is I think tough tracks should be the judges of proper and safe engineering practices and overall track worthyness.

Cheers Dan

[Sic Lux]

Shock hoops are ok there suspension as nothing has changed so it's like duals and x over same as me where the drama is had a guy who was going to look at mine (less a few things) so i think i may be calling him back and i'll let you know. my thinking is a welded arm is out fron the start but unsure of the rest

[nastytroll]

when I had my mad plates done the engineer saud gu diffs n steer didnt need plate cos they are from a suitable vehicle as in same make n model, later model but still uses all the same mounts n links, hence it is just a factory upgrade type mod. Be like fitting hsv brakes to a std commodore I would assume.

[andy & di]

Di, i think most competitors, like me, are annoyed at the fact these changes (and they're not all safety/insurance related) have come into force halfway through the season, with only 5 odd weeks till the next competiton.

personally i wont be competing again, because my vehicle never see's the road anymore, i dont wish to outlay hundreds of $$$'s for blue plates which wont make it legal anyway, due to everyone you talk to at qld transport having a different opinion on whats what

I hear what you are saying, however this is not the first time that rule changes have been made during a season of competition, I have full confidence in the committee that all of these rule changes are because of safety and insurance. There is nothing to gain by the club changing rules to step out one particular person or group of people as has be suggested.

I would like to address one other matter here and that is the "If you dont like it, dont compete" answer that some of you are saying you have received. Unfortunately it is very frustrating having to deal with competitors that complain consitantly about officials, rules or anthing else they wish to complain about, The tough track committee are doing the best that they can, remember that all of these people who but in time and effort to make this comp work do so volunterarly, no one is paid.

Guys stop complaining and get on with the job of getting your vehicles ready for RD 3. Remember that if you do not comply with the rules you wont be able to compete.

Di

[The Big Green Meany]

i find it funny that the same questions are being asked so many times by the same people to different people!!!! isnt that question answered once by some one who is in the know enough?? you know who you are!!

Craig....

Beleive it or not, But there are a few of us who want to compete and want to make sure our cars comply with the rules... We dont want to out lay the cost of entry fees, trailer and fuel bills getting there to be turned away over something that could have been fixed/avoided.I think its all getting a bit to hard for everyone with only 5 weeks to go to next comp How much work do I have to do to get mine ready and as peter said he tholught mine was fine....IS IT

[WHITEWIZARD]

Ok, just going to add one more comment......"IF" this is all about SAFTEY and INSURANCE and REGO compliant,
Why is it then the club allowes suspension mods that "MAY" be unsafe like 6"+ lifts on the road that are unsafe and "illegal" and do not comply with our current rego and at the same time you are asking for muffled exhaust systems? What's muffled exhaust system got to do with saftey and insurance?

Another is.. Gearbox upgrades have to be DOT approved same goes with dual transfer, What does this mod got to do with safety and insurance?

You can not tell me it is to comply with rego/saftey/insurance because if it is and as far as i understand insurance/third party extension is based on if someone gets injured or if death occurs then the insurance comes into play. It is fine accepting large lifts but...if someone gets hurt, are insurance/rego going to accept it, though lifts are illegal on the road?

"ALL OF OUR VEHICLES" are not road worthy/Rego compliant because of the fact that all the rest of the "modifcations" on all of our vehicles are NOT road worthy.

Again "IF" this is all about saftey, insurance and rego, the changes you have made to the rules, how are they going to protect the club and persons driving and navigating? When again with all the mods that people have done on their vehicles do not comply with DOT.

With all this said, i do agree with blue plating seats as it is a saftey matter but for the rest i am very confused and frustrated for other people and myself as i am one of the unlucky ones to try to comply with a couple of the new rules.

Make what you want out of this comment, but in the end I would love a straight foward answer to all above. As i am having trouble understanding the concept of it all

[bowtie landie]

Iv'e been ringing up and asking alot of people trying to find someone
to tell me what I can plate and what has to be engineered in my 94 lux.
And like its already been said, one opinion is differant to the next.
The only two things I am stuck on is shock hoops and crossover steering, you can not blue plate these they have to be engineered and engineering comes at a price and not a cheap one.

And the one that confuses me

3.4.13 CHASSIS

The original chassis for that make of vehicle shall be used.
• Strengthening with the additional bracing is acceptable.
• Spring and shock absorber mountings may be strengthened.
• Protection plates may be added for strengthening and protection purposes.
• Chassis can be modified.

And then in BODY

Body chops shall be DOT plated

Why do you have to DOT approve a body chop and not the chassis if you modify it.
Any chassis mod has to be engineered even a non standard shock mount.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for complying with your rules, insurance etc
but the rules and regs attack some things but not others.
If you want to comply with DOT even 35's on a nissan is illegal, so if you let them run what is the differance to letting me run with cross over?

What I'm getting at is I think tough tracks should be the judges of proper and safe engineering practices and overall track worthyness.

Cheers Dan

Hi Dan,

your right - there are a few inconsistancies and we need to address these also. As said elsewhere in this topic, we did try to get the changes out there ASAP for everyone to view. We didn't even have time to get them back to the rest of the committee to vet the wording and correct inconsistancies.

Chassis modifications should be DOT approved. It got left off because ????.

We did discuss suspension mods. The position of shocks, trailing arms, spring mounts etc. is free - but it is impossible to get these suspension mods approved. But any suspension mod. that requires chassis modification SHOULD be approved.

Now before any-one jumps up and down about not being able to approve mounts for longer trailing arm etc. consider this. For those mods that aren't approvable on Queensland roads:-
- leave the original mounts in place.
- design the offroad suspension mounts so that the original mounts are not in the way when the offroad suspension is installed - a bit of extra thought.
- fabricate and weld using sound engineering practices - I recommend speaking to an engineer or a professional first.
- the engineer should be able to write a report to state that the chassis has not been weakened or adversley affected by the chassis modifications, that the modifications are for offroad use only, and (when the legal arms etc are re-instated - if ever), that the chassis modifications in no way interfere with the operation of the vehicle.

Queensland Transport Inspectors are not interested in what you do to your vehicles offroad, as long as when they go back onto gazetted roads they are legal. As most competition trucks are trailered to events now-a-days, it could be said that the modifications to the vehicle are reversable and, if required, could be brought back to legal.

I will talk to Transport House Engineers tomorrow to find out if they require a Blue Plate DOT Approval for fabrication in this instance, or whether they just require an engineers report.

You guys may have more luck getting an engineers report, if this is agreeable to QT, than getting mods blue plated. I will let you know what I find out.


As for ''Tough Tracks officials being responsible for proper and safe engineering practices'':-
- we do not have enough qualified people.
- we are trying to take the responsibility away from the volunters.
- we must not only be doing the right thing - we must BE SEEN to be doing the right thing.

Vehicle safety and event safety is paramount. We do not want to see anyone hurt. And in the event that something does happen, we don't want the insururance company to start pointing the finger at one or more of the volunteers because they were the ones approving (possibly) unsafe modifications.

Peter K.

[bowtie landie]

when I had my mad plates done the engineer saud gu diffs n steer didnt need plate cos they are from a suitable vehicle as in same make n model, later model but still uses all the same mounts n links, hence it is just a factory upgrade type mod. Be like fitting hsv brakes to a std commodore I would assume.

True, I've been told the same thing - and because the GU to GQ diff swap does not increase the track by more than 50mm then all is OK.

Peter K.

[bowtie landie]

[quote=
Beleive it or not, But there are a few of us who want to compete and want to make sure our cars comply with the rules... We dont want to out lay the cost of entry fees, trailer and fuel bills getting there to be turned away over something that could have been fixed/avoided.I think its all getting a bit to hard for everyone with only 5 weeks to go to next comp How much work do I have to do to get mine ready and as peter said he tholught mine was fine....IS IT [/quote]

Darren, tomorrow night at the club meeting we are going to try to arrange an inspection day - will keep you posted.

Peter K.

[bowtie landie]

Ok, just going to add one more comment......"IF" this is all about SAFTEY and INSURANCE and REGO compliant,
Why is it then the club allowes suspension mods that "MAY" be unsafe like 6"+ lifts on the road that are unsafe and "illegal" and do not comply with our current rego and at the same time you are asking for muffled exhaust systems? What's muffled exhaust system got to do with saftey and insurance?

Another is.. Gearbox upgrades have to be DOT approved same goes with dual transfer, What does this mod got to do with safety and insurance?

You can not tell me it is to comply with rego/saftey/insurance because if it is and as far as i understand insurance/third party extension is based on if someone gets injured or if death occurs then the insurance comes into play. It is fine accepting large lifts but...if someone gets hurt, are insurance/rego going to accept it, though lifts are illegal on the road?

"ALL OF OUR VEHICLES" are not road worthy/Rego compliant because of the fact that all the rest of the "modifcations" on all of our vehicles are NOT road worthy.

Again "IF" this is all about saftey, insurance and rego, the changes you have made to the rules, how are they going to protect the club and persons driving and navigating? When again with all the mods that people have done on their vehicles do not comply with DOT.

With all this said, i do agree with blue plating seats as it is a saftey matter but for the rest i am very confused and frustrated for other people and myself as i am one of the unlucky ones to try to comply with a couple of the new rules.

Make what you want out of this comment, but in the end I would love a straight foward answer to all above. As i am having trouble understanding the concept of it all

Ok there are a few things here:-
1. We know that there are inconsistancies. Suspension is one area that is very difficult for us. If we say that suspension has to be QT road legal then we will have no competition event. So we have placed this one in the too hard basket for now. What we are trying to do is MOVE in the right direction. We are not jumping there - but moving there, and by implementing the other changes we are hoping to get rid of many of the unsafe modifications. As per the post above I will be looking at alternatives for "OFFROAD USE ONLY" modification approvals.
2. The Club's official stance is that we no way condone the use of illegally modified vehicles on the road.
3. I have said it before but the rule amendments included some rules that were operational rules as well - ie. to ensure the smooth operation of the event. Muffling systems are 2 fold - obviously one is to reduce the noise output of a vehicle, the other is to arrest sparks. In the dry areas we are competing in, a bush fire would create havock. We are looking at the bigger picture.
4. Gearbox upgrades - OK not high on the safety issue - unless the fitting of say a larger automatic transmission requires cutting the floorpan open, allowing hot transmission fluid to spray onto the driver should a cooling hose wear through - for example. Yes - far fetched - but with a DOT approved conversion this could never happen - AND - we do not have to have discussions / arguements out at the events with people as to whether it could or couldn't happen and whether we should allow the vehicle to compete.
5. Insurance - yes it is a minefield - it scares me (and not much else does). Let's hope that we are seen to be taking a step in the right direction.

Peter K.

[BIG GQ]

OK so say you need to blue plate your GU diff into GQ and it can be legally done. What is the deal then when we put or wider and/or flipped rims on and it takes us over the 50mm threshold ???? Yes I am aware that the rules state wheel options are unlimited but if I was to have a GU diff in a GQ (D.O.T Plated - and carrying my precious paper certificate to go with) then put 10" wide rims on or flipped rims, etc what is the point in having spent my coin getting the diff plated as I've just gone over the 50mm track width alteration.


On a side note we all know what insurance companies are like in the event that a claim needs to be made and I would love to see and insurance company pay a claim (yes even with the vehicle having the CTP Rally extension) relating to a vehicle fitted with 7" suspension, 38" tyres, a roll cage not plated (did that effect the drivers vision), a vehicle fitted with harnesses (did they restrict drivers movement/vision), a sports steering wheel smaller than the legal requirement (did this effect driver in any way)...................the list goes on. Sorry to say it but good luck. In a serious injury/death case what it would come back to is who has the biggest lawyers and unfortunately that will not be Tough Tracks 4WD Club.

[WHITEWIZARD]

Thank you for that, it sheds a little more light on the subject. let's hope all the original competitors can still compete so we can still keep the comp consistent.

[bowtie landie]

OK so say you need to blue plate your GU diff into GQ and it can be legally done. What is the deal then when we put or wider and/or flipped rims on and it takes us over the 50mm threshold ???? Yes I am aware that the rules state wheel options are unlimited but if I was to have a GU diff in a GQ (D.O.T Plated - and carrying my precious paper certificate to go with) then put 10" wide rims on or flipped rims, etc what is the point in having spent my coin getting the diff plated as I've just gone over the 50mm track width alteration.


On a side note we all know what insurance companies are like in the event that a claim needs to be made and I would love to see and insurance company pay a claim (yes even with the vehicle having the CTP Rally extension) relating to a vehicle fitted with 7" suspension, 38" tyres, a roll cage not plated (did that effect the drivers vision), a vehicle fitted with harnesses (did they restrict drivers movement/vision), a sports steering wheel smaller than the legal requirement (did this effect driver in any way)...................the list goes on. Sorry to say it but good luck. In a serious injury/death case what it would come back to is who has the biggest lawyers and unfortunately that will not be Tough Tracks 4WD Club.

Yeah your right Linc, there is no way that we can run this event and have NO risk. We are just trying to REDUCE the risk - risk management.

We are trying to improve the situation, stop the modifications from growing to 'bodied buggy' status, and trying to reduce the requirement of the officials & club members to become regualtors - otherwise no-one is going to volunteer for positions next year and the club will fold.

So we are moving in the right direction and that has got to be good. It's better than doing nothing. It is easier to do nothing. It seems as soon as we do something positive we get alot of negativity. It is FAR easier to do nothing.

So for those with negative comments - give us some support - get off our backs and give it a go. We may not have it right yet - but at least we are trying. If there are people out there that can do it better, join the club, become pro-active. There is alot of energy out there that could be channelled in a better direction.

Peter K.

[BIG GQ]

Trying to move in the right direction yes but possibly going about it the wrong way. Yes I can see that the club is trying to get back to a basic truck with say tyres, lift and lockers and keep the costs down so "the little bloke" can get a chance to compete but really with the mod plates, engineering, etc that is now required it has done nothing but drive the costs up (in a big way for some competitors).

What is the answer?????????? Well I really am buggered if I know but just maybe the answer is having a set of rules somewhat relaxed but which still limit that which can be done to a vehicle and relaxing the rego or CTP rule and charge a larger entry fee in order to fund an insurance policy which will actually cover all involved in the event of a claim...................lets take XRCC for example (sorry Dave just an example) where by a vehicle does not require a CTP extension to compete however they still have insurance in place. .............yes it means a higher entry fee but competitors may be willing to pay this 3 times a year as opposed to paying ridiculous fees for engineering and blue plating of vehicles.

This may not be the answer and I really don't know what is but it is food for though.

[andy & di]

Ok, just going to add one more comment......"IF" this is all about SAFTEY and INSURANCE and REGO compliant,
Why is it then the club allowes suspension mods that "MAY" be unsafe like 6"+ lifts on the road that are unsafe and "illegal" and do not comply with our current rego and at the same time you are asking for muffled exhaust systems? What's muffled exhaust system got to do with saftey and insurance?

Another is.. Gearbox upgrades have to be DOT approved same goes with dual transfer, What does this mod got to do with safety and insurance?

You can not tell me it is to comply with rego/saftey/insurance because if it is and as far as i understand insurance/third party extension is based on if someone gets injured or if death occurs then the insurance comes into play. It is fine accepting large lifts but...if someone gets hurt, are insurance/rego going to accept it, though lifts are illegal on the road?

"ALL OF OUR VEHICLES" are not road worthy/Rego compliant because of the fact that all the rest of the "modifcations" on all of our vehicles are NOT road worthy.

Again "IF" this is all about saftey, insurance and rego, the changes you have made to the rules, how are they going to protect the club and persons driving and navigating? When again with all the mods that people have done on their vehicles do not comply with DOT.

With all this said, i do agree with blue plating seats as it is a saftey matter but for the rest i am very confused and frustrated for other people and myself as i am one of the unlucky ones to try to comply with a couple of the new rules.

Make what you want out of this comment, but in the end I would love a straight foward answer to all above. As i am having trouble understanding the concept of it all

Mick,

we are not talking normal rego 3rd party insurance, we are talking about the safety of other competitors and spectators and the clubs public liability insurance and the requirements that are needed for the extention of public liability insurance for the competition.

[DFK Racing]

I am guessing this would mean that there is no chance a winch challenge spec truck would be allowed to compete..

Never actually competed in Tough Tracks before... but it was something we were interested in....

[andy & di]

I am guessing this would mean that there is no chance a winch challenge spec truck would be allowed to compete..

Never actually competed in Tough Tracks before... but it was something we were interested in....

have a look at the vehicle regs and if need be contact Peter K and have a chat, you never know you might be fine

[The Big Green Meany]

[quote=
Beleive it or not, But there are a few of us who want to compete and want to make sure our cars comply with the rules... We dont want to out lay the cost of entry fees, trailer and fuel bills getting there to be turned away over something that could have been fixed/avoided.I think its all getting a bit to hard for everyone with only 5 weeks to go to next comp How much work do I have to do to get mine ready and as peter said he tholught mine was fine....IS IT

Darren, tomorrow night at the club meeting we are going to try to arrange an inspection day - will keep you posted.

Peter K.[/quote]


Meeting tonight........ Ill be there..... Ill bring me swag also ,It could be a long night

[The Big Green Meany]

I am guessing this would mean that there is no chance a winch challenge spec truck would be allowed to compete..

Never actually competed in Tough Tracks before... but it was something we were interested in....

Yeah ,I though you guys would have been fine.... Then Again I thought our truck was too.

[bowtie landie]

I am guessing this would mean that there is no chance a winch challenge spec truck would be allowed to compete..

Never actually competed in Tough Tracks before... but it was something we were interested in....

Yeah ,I though you guys would have been fine.... Then Again I thought our truck was too.

Darren - stop being so bloody negative. For about the 4th. time I think that yours with full doors will be fine, with little or no further work required to comply. So why not wait until you see if yours complies before you pass any more negative comments. Let DFK Racing contact me to discuss their vehicle. Don't turn them away.

And as for bringing a swag - you don't think we are going to let you sleep through a meeting do you !!!

Peter K.

PS - If your vehicle is OK you're going to have to eat humble pie and put a post up saying how easy it is to comply - otherwise we'll have to do something nasty like unlock 1 FWH as you line up for a track !!