Im interested in people opinions on Auto`s Vs Manuals in regard to 4x4 driving.
I personally prefer a Manual, but recently I have had people tell me that Auto`s in new model cars ( any make ) is the way to go.
The people who have told me that Auto`s are the way to go are not, what you would say - regular 4x4ers ( tourers ) They only do a couple of trips a year.
What are the Pro`s and Con`s of both Auto and Manual and which do you prefer ?
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Auto Vs Manual for 4x4ing
Moderators: toaddog, TWISTY, V8Patrol, Moderators
The harder the terrain, the more you need an auto.
Torque multiplication
Ability to control torque at the wheels and speed separately
Ability to position the car with amazing accuracy
No rolling back on hills
No clutch to slip, get wet or glaze
Less shock loading on driveline
There are problems. An auto needs to work against load to get the adjustability of power delivery. Autos with open diffs, crap tyres etc suck because you can't load them up.
Autos with engines with poor torque characteristics or bad gearing can be a PITA to drive.
I have had my Gwagen for 9 years and it is just amazing to drive offroad. My Dad also ran a Hummer for years and that was very sweet too. It really depends on having well matched gearing/converter/engine characteristics.
Dad also runs a 4.5 petrol auto 80 series, and as an example, twin locked, on swampers in the snow it was a massive PITA because it was really hard to "feel" the converter - it went from slip to stalled in about 100rpm. I could run rings around it im ny merc with a third of the power and the same weight , mostly because the converter was so easier to work with.
Manuals are fun, and my current project is manual, but by choice I woudl go auto every time.
PS autos are NOT easier to drive off road than a manual, they just do more and make you look like a better driver.
Steve.
Torque multiplication
Ability to control torque at the wheels and speed separately
Ability to position the car with amazing accuracy
No rolling back on hills
No clutch to slip, get wet or glaze
Less shock loading on driveline
There are problems. An auto needs to work against load to get the adjustability of power delivery. Autos with open diffs, crap tyres etc suck because you can't load them up.
Autos with engines with poor torque characteristics or bad gearing can be a PITA to drive.
I have had my Gwagen for 9 years and it is just amazing to drive offroad. My Dad also ran a Hummer for years and that was very sweet too. It really depends on having well matched gearing/converter/engine characteristics.
Dad also runs a 4.5 petrol auto 80 series, and as an example, twin locked, on swampers in the snow it was a massive PITA because it was really hard to "feel" the converter - it went from slip to stalled in about 100rpm. I could run rings around it im ny merc with a third of the power and the same weight , mostly because the converter was so easier to work with.
Manuals are fun, and my current project is manual, but by choice I woudl go auto every time.
PS autos are NOT easier to drive off road than a manual, they just do more and make you look like a better driver.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
ive been told that autos are better on sand caus when it clicks up or down gears u dont lose any momentum from depressing the clutch and manuals are better for other types of 4x4ing caus u have choice in terms of gears. Personally id prefer a manual over auto 4x4 or 4x2 anyday caus it makes you feel like your driving the car, not just point and shoot
1987 Tojo 4runner nothing too exciting
How often do you change gears on an obstacle with your manual?tojo_runner wrote:ive been told that autos are better on sand caus when it clicks up or down gears u dont lose any momentum from depressing the clutch and manuals are better for other types of 4x4ing caus u have choice in terms of gears. Personally id prefer a manual over auto 4x4 or 4x2 anyday caus it makes you feel like your driving the car, not just point and shoot
What do you mean it makes you feel like you are driving your car? All you are doing is changing a gear manually all other vehicle control is the same with an auto. It allows you to actual have more control over your vehicle as you are concentrating on driving the car not changing gears.
Ransom note = demand + collage
I am slowly becoming a convert to automatic transmissions, with a few exceptions. 4WDing is not really one of those exceptions. My current 4WD is a manual, I am pretty sure the next one will be an auto.
In a sports car I still prefer a manual; who knows, maybe I'll change my mind about that one day too. Anyway the new semi-autos pretty much eliminate the question.
In a sports car I still prefer a manual; who knows, maybe I'll change my mind about that one day too. Anyway the new semi-autos pretty much eliminate the question.
This is not legal advice.
some of us can do more than 1 thing at a time 
, I have driven auto's n found they are good for solid based hills but if it is slippery or powdery they do not have the ability to be feathered to get traction. Auto's rob power, do not have any worthy compression breaking, can not be "clutched" if you are goin over backward on a hill climb, auto's can not be controled when rear wheel steering as easily (not compression braking), are harder on brakes, overheat and shit themselves under exsesive loads, take to long to find reverse, are expensive to repair, are prone to suck in water during water crossings, have extra hydrolic lines to blow, have fluid coolers to clog n fail, have no clutch to drop. there are many other things I dont like about auto's but cant think of them at the moment.
Some of these problems can be modded if you wanna spent the $, manuel valve body, dump valve, lock up swith ect. But why spend the $ on a power robbing POS auto.
I rearly have to change gears while 4WDriving, Its a small thing called torque (not talk), some of us have it.
But I'm sure someone can come up with some good points.
, I have driven auto's n found they are good for solid based hills but if it is slippery or powdery they do not have the ability to be feathered to get traction. Auto's rob power, do not have any worthy compression breaking, can not be "clutched" if you are goin over backward on a hill climb, auto's can not be controled when rear wheel steering as easily (not compression braking), are harder on brakes, overheat and shit themselves under exsesive loads, take to long to find reverse, are expensive to repair, are prone to suck in water during water crossings, have extra hydrolic lines to blow, have fluid coolers to clog n fail, have no clutch to drop. there are many other things I dont like about auto's but cant think of them at the moment.Some of these problems can be modded if you wanna spent the $, manuel valve body, dump valve, lock up swith ect. But why spend the $ on a power robbing POS auto.
I rearly have to change gears while 4WDriving, Its a small thing called torque (not talk), some of us have it.
But I'm sure someone can come up with some good points.
Biggest thing I can see an auto being good for, is like some ones already mentioned, lag. On a big hill, be it sand/rocks/mud/dirt, if your getting high up in the revs in 1st and want to go to 2nd, in the time it takes to depress the clutch, change gears, release clutch and gas it, you've lost most if not all momentum and it dies in the arse. If its an auto you could just keep climbing through the gears, till you get to the top or run out of torque. Same goes for mud holes, if your bogged and get the revs up in 1st, the wheels usually stop spinning by the time you get to 2nd 
60 + Turbo, 33"s :armsup:
I feel pretty strongly about this.
I like noodling about - technical obstacles. I'm not at all interested in sitting at the bottom of a hill, punching it and powering to the top. for "noodling" or working through an obstacle, an auto is just straight out superior.
Lost power? Sure. No question. But the converter multiplies torque, and that's what I want to drive me up the hill.
If I had only driven a stock manual Suzuki on big tyres, I'd probably bag suzukis, because they wrn't geaed right to do the job. If I had only driven a stock landcruiser (or patrol, or whatever) auto with big tyres, I would say it sucked too. Autos have to be geared properly just like manuals.
And they are at least as hard to lean how to drive properly. I have seen lots of people drive autos really badly in the bush.
Just because you don't have to use the clutch doesn't mean there's less to do. that auto brake pedal is big for a reason.... it's for your LEFT foot. Once you get your left foot on the brake, auto's come alive.
Clutch drops? no problem- just stall the converter up. I can drop back off an obstacle just the same in an auto - if I drop to below stall speed, it'll roll backwards, or I can bump into neutral.
Manuals are fine, and fun. My road car is manual because I can't make an auto do what I want on road. Off road, it's just the opposite.
don't be a hater, be an appreciator
Steve.
I like noodling about - technical obstacles. I'm not at all interested in sitting at the bottom of a hill, punching it and powering to the top. for "noodling" or working through an obstacle, an auto is just straight out superior.
Lost power? Sure. No question. But the converter multiplies torque, and that's what I want to drive me up the hill.
If I had only driven a stock manual Suzuki on big tyres, I'd probably bag suzukis, because they wrn't geaed right to do the job. If I had only driven a stock landcruiser (or patrol, or whatever) auto with big tyres, I would say it sucked too. Autos have to be geared properly just like manuals.
And they are at least as hard to lean how to drive properly. I have seen lots of people drive autos really badly in the bush.
Just because you don't have to use the clutch doesn't mean there's less to do. that auto brake pedal is big for a reason.... it's for your LEFT foot. Once you get your left foot on the brake, auto's come alive.
Clutch drops? no problem- just stall the converter up. I can drop back off an obstacle just the same in an auto - if I drop to below stall speed, it'll roll backwards, or I can bump into neutral.
Manuals are fine, and fun. My road car is manual because I can't make an auto do what I want on road. Off road, it's just the opposite.
don't be a hater, be an appreciator
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
I concer! don't think i have any where near as much experince as stevy but same thoughts for sure!Gwagensteve wrote:I feel pretty strongly about this.
I like noodling about - technical obstacles. I'm not at all interested in sitting at the bottom of a hill, punching it and powering to the top. for "noodling" or working through an obstacle, an auto is just straight out superior.
Lost power? Sure. No question. But the converter multiplies torque, and that's what I want to drive me up the hill.
If I had only driven a stock manual Suzuki on big tyres, I'd probably bag suzukis, because they wrn't geaed right to do the job. If I had only driven a stock landcruiser (or patrol, or whatever) auto with big tyres, I would say it sucked too. Autos have to be geared properly just like manuals.
And they are at least as hard to lean how to drive properly. I have seen lots of people drive autos really badly in the bush.
Just because you don't have to use the clutch doesn't mean there's less to do. that auto brake pedal is big for a reason.... it's for your LEFT foot. Once you get your left foot on the brake, auto's come alive.
Clutch drops? no problem- just stall the converter up. I can drop back off an obstacle just the same in an auto - if I drop to below stall speed, it'll roll backwards, or I can bump into neutral.
Manuals are fine, and fun. My road car is manual because I can't make an auto do what I want on road. Off road, it's just the opposite.
don't be a hater, be an appreciator
Steve.
Buds Customs : Street, Track & Trail - Parts & Fabrication - Nissan, Toyota, Custom D60 gear
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I've got an auto and it's really good in everything except steep descents. Although, 'driving through the brakes' helps a lot with descents.
Otherwise, I whack it into D, shift into 4Lo and it's good steep inclines, technical rocks, bogholes and straights up to 60km/h.
For technical stuff like rocks I recon an auto would be better than a manual cause you can drive through the brakes and go as slow as you want.
BTW, extend the breather lines and you won't get water in the auto trannie during river crossings.
Otherwise, I whack it into D, shift into 4Lo and it's good steep inclines, technical rocks, bogholes and straights up to 60km/h.
For technical stuff like rocks I recon an auto would be better than a manual cause you can drive through the brakes and go as slow as you want.
BTW, extend the breather lines and you won't get water in the auto trannie during river crossings.
With this I lock mine in 1st and if it starts go speed up i hit the accelerator to lock the converter up so it slow's down and doesn't try to get away on me. works a treat for me.dirtydannyd wrote:I've got an auto and it's really good in everything except steep descents. Although, 'driving through the brakes' helps a lot with descents.
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Re: Auto Vs Manual for 4x4ing
TheGatta wrote:Im interested in people opinions on Auto`s Vs Manuals in regard to 4x4 driving.
I personally prefer a Manual, but recently I have had people tell me that Auto`s in new model cars ( any make ) is the way to go.
The people who have told me that Auto`s are the way to go are not, what you would say - regular 4x4ers ( tourers ) They only do a couple of trips a year.
What are the Pro`s and Con`s of both Auto and Manual and which do you prefer ?
If these people are currently running automatic 4WDs, ask to go for a drive with them. Get in the drivers seat and try some obstacles you are both comfortable with, and see how you feel with the car. Basically try one, its the best way to answer your question. Wonder if hiring out an auto and going up the bush would upset the hire company?
I don't like automatics, to me they feel creepy and strange; that aside I am quite aware of the benefits, and in some cases I have almost wished I had an automatic because of the specific situation. I would not own one, because I'm more comfortable with a clutch and gearlever; and what your more comfortable with, you will likely control better, and operate safer.
Everyone and every situation is different; get what suits YOU best, not what is 'technically' better. If neither is clearly better to you, choose a type on other factors, and with time and practice I'm sure you could make it work for you.
Wheeling on completely wicked angles, without even looking stable.
Offroad I have gone manual, auto, manual, auto and I much prefer the auto offroad for the control it gives. The value of the ability to roll up to an obstacle and load up the converter and ease into it without riding the clutch is priceless. As Steve said though gearing is just as important for an auto as it is for a manual if you want it to work properly. I don't have an issue with steep descents thanks to a set of crawler gears. The other thing though that you should do is run a decent trans cooler as excessive heat is a killer. Also keep in mind that like other things, not all autos are created equal.
[quote="4WD Stuff"]
I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously :finger: :finger: :finger: :finger: [/quote]
I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously :finger: :finger: :finger: :finger: [/quote]
Same here. I'm talking about really steep slippery stuff that you have to take really slowly. Mine starts engine braking at around 10 km'h in 1st low. Sometimes you need to take hills slower than thatWICKED wrote:With this I lock mine in 1st and if it starts go speed up i hit the accelerator to lock the converter up so it slow's down and doesn't try to get away on me. works a treat for me.dirtydannyd wrote:I've got an auto and it's really good in everything except steep descents. Although, 'driving through the brakes' helps a lot with descents.
i had always driven manuals offroad and was very happy with it. i loved it in the old buggy. we have an auto buggy now, and it took me a lot of getting used to. i still don't like it.
i especially dislike the constant load because:
a. my brakes are crap
b. to do a dig, i need to disconnect the rear. with the constant load, i'd have to flick to N or R to free up the drive line, then back into D. this sucks. with a manual, i'd just slip the clutch a tad as i've got pressure on the 2wd/4wd lever and it would change.
with the manual, i could control forward movement down to the exact tyre lug precision. now its a case of give the cones heaps of room when doing 3 point turns. most of this is caused by the shitty brakes, but if it was a manual, i could drive and compensate.
i don't like it for drop offs. and i think for saving a backwards endo roll on steep climbs, it's easier to step on the clutch than to change out of DRIVE.
the only advantage is to get instant power going uphill. but you can learn to launch manuals pretty hard as well if you know the limits of your clutch and traction.
my vote is manual for versatility. can you push start your auto?
i especially dislike the constant load because:
a. my brakes are crap
b. to do a dig, i need to disconnect the rear. with the constant load, i'd have to flick to N or R to free up the drive line, then back into D. this sucks. with a manual, i'd just slip the clutch a tad as i've got pressure on the 2wd/4wd lever and it would change.
with the manual, i could control forward movement down to the exact tyre lug precision. now its a case of give the cones heaps of room when doing 3 point turns. most of this is caused by the shitty brakes, but if it was a manual, i could drive and compensate.
i don't like it for drop offs. and i think for saving a backwards endo roll on steep climbs, it's easier to step on the clutch than to change out of DRIVE.
the only advantage is to get instant power going uphill. but you can learn to launch manuals pretty hard as well if you know the limits of your clutch and traction.
my vote is manual for versatility. can you push start your auto?
lol i also have 68% reduction gears behind mine & 4-wheel disc brakesdirtydannyd wrote:Same here. I'm talking about really steep slippery stuff that you have to take really slowly. Mine starts engine braking at around 10 km'h in 1st low. Sometimes you need to take hills slower than thatWICKED wrote:With this I lock mine in 1st and if it starts go speed up i hit the accelerator to lock the converter up so it slow's down and doesn't try to get away on me. works a treat for me.dirtydannyd wrote:I've got an auto and it's really good in everything except steep descents. Although, 'driving through the brakes' helps a lot with descents.
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No but given where a lot of us drive push starting a manual isn't always an option either plus I carry jumper leads and don't drive alone so I don't see the issueN*A*M wrote: can you push start your auto?
[quote="4WD Stuff"]
I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously :finger: :finger: :finger: :finger: [/quote]
I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously :finger: :finger: :finger: :finger: [/quote]
Yes I can. the pump is on the tailshaft end of my auto. It's acutally better to tow start themand neutral drop them into drive, but it does work.N*A*M wrote: can you push start your auto?
Auto's with plenty of gear reduction also can be bump started.
As I said, don't bag autos because of a crap setup. The brakes are rubbish in my Gwagen too, but I won't blame the auto for that.
Sort your brakes, get the stall speed right in your converter and you will be fine. There aren't many manual rock buggies out there.
My Gwagen wouldn't be 1/2 as capable as it is if it was manual. In fact, I would have totalled it by now- the auto has saved heaps of near rolls.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
I much prefer manuals, mainly because I've yet to drive a decent auto offroad.
My daily driver wagon is auto, I really wanted a manual but the only one I found was rooted.
Last week I hooked up a switch inside the car to the torque converter lockup. I can now make it lockup in any gear at will which makes me soo much happier.
Being able to drive up a skifield road and not smell the auto box is a great relief, the direct drive is great for engine braking, overtaking, towing and should help fuel economy too.
My daily driver wagon is auto, I really wanted a manual but the only one I found was rooted.
Last week I hooked up a switch inside the car to the torque converter lockup. I can now make it lockup in any gear at will which makes me soo much happier.
Being able to drive up a skifield road and not smell the auto box is a great relief, the direct drive is great for engine braking, overtaking, towing and should help fuel economy too.
autos are a hell of a lot easier to drive off road you just gave all the reasons whyGwagensteve wrote:
PS autos are NOT easier to drive off road than a manual, they just do more and make you look like a better driver.
Steve.
my next one will be auto for sure
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im aware of the benifits of an auto, but my personal preferance is still manual. i hate autos both on and offroad. i like to be able to choose exactly what gear i want, not just the highest gear it can go to. i like being able to put my foot on the clutch and roll back slightly without having to change gears. i like tha fact that (for me) its easier to rock from 1st to reverse with a manual as i dont feel autos can shift into reverse quick enuf. and i just downright love to throw a gearstick about! and do it when I feel its time to, not the vehicle...
but thats just what i like. it realy comes down to whats good for you... go to a rent-a-car place and hire an auto 4wd for a weekend hire cars are the best 4wds, they will go anywhere you want them to. and sometimes they will even make it back again!
but thats just what i like. it realy comes down to whats good for you... go to a rent-a-car place and hire an auto 4wd for a weekend
hire cars are the best 4wds, they will go anywhere you want them to. and sometimes they will even make it back again! [quote="Barnsey"]
Bronwyn Bishop does it for me.[/quote]
Bronwyn Bishop does it for me.[/quote]
They're only easier once you have learned how to drive thsm, which many people don't think you have to do. That was my point - they are hard to learn how to drive off road because you have to teach your left foot to do the braking, otherwise they suck.redzook wrote:
autos are a hell of a lot easier to drive off road you just gave all the reasons why
my next one will be auto for sure
I learned to drive in manuals and bought my first auto 4WD after driving manuals off road for about 5 years. That was 9 years ago.
People talk so much crap about autos it's funny. I shift mine manually off road - I choose what gear I want to be in. Yes, it will still kick down if I am in say, 3rd, but it does it with no loss of momentum, so what's the big deal?
Mine doesn't ever change up if I'm in, say, second - it won't pull 3rd.
so, you still have to choose the right gear, you have to work your left foot - it takes as least as mugh thought, but the end result is just so much better.
As an aside - driving a well geared auto in technical terrin is like driving a manual in the same terrain by with twice the gearing.
If you haven't driven a 50 or 60:1 geared auto in terrain you haven't lived, just like if you haven't driven a 100:1 manual. (The auto is still beterr because of it's flexible gearing) but still, it's easy to talk trash about stock setups.
If I said "patrols are sh!t because they only have a rear locker and 31's" eeryone would say I'm being stupid, but because someone has driven a to tall geared stock car with incorrect stall etc they are then an authority to bag autos.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
my last GQ was a manual which was great but ive now got a another GQ with an auto which im looking forward too once finished as ive thought for a long time it would be better control for 4bying.also without one hand constantly grabbing for the shifter i wont be spilling my beverage all over the dash while juggling steering wheel,gearstick and can at once..ive always said if you have an engine with enough torque go auto same for road cars.smaller capacity motors need manuals to move by ringing the p#ss out of them.same on the street,rice burners need manuals big engined cars use tricked autos.
chimpboy wrote:I am slowly becoming a convert to automatic transmissions, with a few exceptions. 4WDing is not really one of those exceptions. My current 4WD is a manual, I am pretty sure the next one will be an auto.
In a sports car I still prefer a manual; who knows, maybe I'll change my mind about that one day too.Anyway the new semi-autos pretty much eliminate the question.
?????????? Please Explain ?
.
Read hereTheGatta wrote:chimpboy wrote:I am slowly becoming a convert to automatic transmissions, with a few exceptions. 4WDing is not really one of those exceptions. My current 4WD is a manual, I am pretty sure the next one will be an auto.
In a sports car I still prefer a manual; who knows, maybe I'll change my mind about that one day too.Anyway the new semi-autos pretty much eliminate the question.
?????????? Please Explain ?
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semi-autom ... ansmission
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