I'm within a whisker now of sending my kettle - oops, sorry, Patrol - up to Sydney's EastCoast 4WD to get an exchange engine.
While it's there it's hopefully going to Garrett for a new turbo, then it's getting some of the niceties, like an intercooler, maybe 2inches of lift, and of course, a DUAL BATTERY SYSTEM!!!! (refer to the thread where I set my car on fire for why)
So that brings up some questions I'd love to get answered, as there are MULTITUDES upon MULTITUDES of dual-battery systems in the 4wd mags, and I have no idea what one to choose.
SO:
1st. Do I need to upgrade the alternator to handle two batteries?
The reason I ask, is TWICE now, after doing 2 hour drives with spotties and highbeam on almost the whole way (not much oncoming traffic in the Brindies late on Friday nights), I've found the car very hard, or completely impossible to start the next morning.
The alternator currently in it is BRAND NEW, not recoed, but is an original Nissan one, whereas I now have twin spotties, thermofan, UHF, etc all running on this car,
So I am wondering if on both those occasions, I was sucking more than the alternator was replacing, and so actually slowly drained the battery on those drives, which makes me think that even a dual-battery might not be enough without adding an extra alternator, or upgrading the existing one.
2nd.
Which Dual-battery system should I choose? Whatever it is, it sure better be reliable, I'm not being stuck waiting for 5 hours for a passing 4by to jump start me at Lowell's Flat again. That wasn't much fun.
Anything Else I need to know?
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Dual Battery Recommendations, and alternator questions.
Moderator: -Scott-
Dual Battery Recommendations, and alternator questions.
[url=http://www.4x4him.org]Bringing the Christian Rock Crawling Community a little closer[/url]
Re: Dual Battery Recommendations, and alternator questions.
why would a dual battery system have anything to do with this? your AUX battery is there to run other items and leave the main battery untouched.Ezookiel wrote: .
2nd.
Which Dual-battery system should I choose? Whatever it is, it sure better be reliable, I'm not being stuck waiting for 5 hours for a passing 4by to jump start me at Lowell's Flat again. That wasn't much fun.
my GUBanzy wrote:Dial up internet.........you'd post something and come back 2 beers later to see if it loaded.
As others said - 1 - make sure your alternator can keep up. Batteries are just a tank, if it's coming out faster than it's coming in, it will empty.
For the battery systems I did all the numbers on them a while ago. They all work, it's a case of how many AH you get for your $$
The 2 most cost effective systems were
a) 2 Exide batts in parallel with a voltmeter to monitor them and no isolator
b) 1 AGM and 1 Exide with a Traxide isolator. (Has to be the traxide, they ar different)
All the background is here http://neuralfibre.com/paul/?p=37
Paul
For the battery systems I did all the numbers on them a while ago. They all work, it's a case of how many AH you get for your $$
The 2 most cost effective systems were
a) 2 Exide batts in parallel with a voltmeter to monitor them and no isolator
b) 1 AGM and 1 Exide with a Traxide isolator. (Has to be the traxide, they ar different)
All the background is here http://neuralfibre.com/paul/?p=37
Paul
Lexus LX470 - hrrm Winter Tyres
Gone - Cruiser HZJ105 Turbo'd Locked & Lifted
Gone - 3L Surf
Gone - Cruiser HZJ105 Turbo'd Locked & Lifted
Gone - 3L Surf
I've heard variously that the standard alternator on a Troll is 55amp and 70 amp.
The car runs:
2x 240 Blitz lights
Lowbeam
1x Thermo Fan
The car heater while driving, as this is Canberra Winter Nights up in the Mountains we're talking about.
Uniden UHF
MP3 FM Transmitter
Car Radio on an FM Station to hear the MP3 player.
Alarm System (unknown type)
A 100w reverse light once in a blue moon when reversing.
I intend to put in two new Optimas at the same time as the Dual-Battery. So whatever colours are recommended for those, for my needs.
My primary intention for the Dual-battery system is simply to ensure one battery can always start the car, anything else it can do is less of a concern. I just want to know I can start it, as there aren't many other alternatives when you drive an automatic diesel.
It will, one day, be running for probably very short periods, and only very occasionally, a Waeco "MobiCool" 35 litre SUPER ELCHEAPO fridge. And I mean so elcheapo that it cost about a hundred dollars. So probably highly inefficient and costly to run.
I'd even consider a TRIPLE battery if it means I'll only ever be stuck if some huge malfunction occurs.
Thanks for all your advice.
The car runs:
2x 240 Blitz lights
Lowbeam
1x Thermo Fan
The car heater while driving, as this is Canberra Winter Nights up in the Mountains we're talking about.
Uniden UHF
MP3 FM Transmitter
Car Radio on an FM Station to hear the MP3 player.
Alarm System (unknown type)
A 100w reverse light once in a blue moon when reversing.
I intend to put in two new Optimas at the same time as the Dual-Battery. So whatever colours are recommended for those, for my needs.
My primary intention for the Dual-battery system is simply to ensure one battery can always start the car, anything else it can do is less of a concern. I just want to know I can start it, as there aren't many other alternatives when you drive an automatic diesel.
It will, one day, be running for probably very short periods, and only very occasionally, a Waeco "MobiCool" 35 litre SUPER ELCHEAPO fridge. And I mean so elcheapo that it cost about a hundred dollars. So probably highly inefficient and costly to run.
I'd even consider a TRIPLE battery if it means I'll only ever be stuck if some huge malfunction occurs.
Thanks for all your advice.
[url=http://www.4x4him.org]Bringing the Christian Rock Crawling Community a little closer[/url]
try a GU alternator maybe? mine is 100AEzookiel wrote:I've heard variously that the standard alternator on a Troll is 55amp and 70 amp.
or get yours rewired?
my GUBanzy wrote:Dial up internet.........you'd post something and come back 2 beers later to see if it loaded.
The car runs:
2x 240 Blitz lights (18A)
Lowbeam (9A)
1x Thermo Fan (10-15A)
The car heater while driving, as this is Canberra Winter Nights up in the Mountains we're talking about. (up to 10-15A on Hi)
Uniden UHF (0.5A)
MP3 FM Transmitter (0.1A)
Car Radio on an FM Station to hear the MP3 player. (5A)
Alarm System (unknown type) (0.01A)
A 100w reverse light once in a blue moon when reversing. (sfa A)
Add it up from there.
Optima's won't help if the alternator can't cope. Depends on if all this stuff is on 100% at once. Optima's are a very expensive way to get A/H, nice, but expensive.
Paul
2x 240 Blitz lights (18A)
Lowbeam (9A)
1x Thermo Fan (10-15A)
The car heater while driving, as this is Canberra Winter Nights up in the Mountains we're talking about. (up to 10-15A on Hi)
Uniden UHF (0.5A)
MP3 FM Transmitter (0.1A)
Car Radio on an FM Station to hear the MP3 player. (5A)
Alarm System (unknown type) (0.01A)
A 100w reverse light once in a blue moon when reversing. (sfa A)
Add it up from there.
Optima's won't help if the alternator can't cope. Depends on if all this stuff is on 100% at once. Optima's are a very expensive way to get A/H, nice, but expensive.
Paul
Lexus LX470 - hrrm Winter Tyres
Gone - Cruiser HZJ105 Turbo'd Locked & Lifted
Gone - 3L Surf
Gone - Cruiser HZJ105 Turbo'd Locked & Lifted
Gone - 3L Surf
me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:The car runs:
....
Add it up from there.
Well if it's a 55amp alternator that's way over, and if it's a 70 it's coming close. Those were the things that would have all probably been on at once.
My plan is to put all this on the 'never-never' so if I'm going to do the job, I may as well borrow enough to do it really really WELL. So two optimas as the guts of a dual-battery setup, is small money for some piece of mind. Now all I need to do is contact the auto-leccy that put in the alternator, and find out what amp it is, and find out options for a bigger one if it's not up to scratch.me3@neuralfibre.com wrote: ....Optima's are a very expensive way to get A/H, nice, but expensive....
Thanks peoples, great help, now I just need to nail down which of the three million Dual-battery setup's out there is the best one.
I like the idea of an incar monitor, so I can be sure the power is going to be there, and know if it won't.
[url=http://www.4x4him.org]Bringing the Christian Rock Crawling Community a little closer[/url]
Hi Ezookiel, a dual or triple battery set up would be an advantage but NOT Optimas.
You would be wasting your money installing any form of hi tech battery as you won’t be able to get any additional advantage out of them.
Fit two additional flooded wet cell cranking batteries and don’t do anything about your alternator for the time being.
I’ll come to the Dual battery controller later, but will happen is while you are driving and you don’t have everything on, your alternator will be producing enough current to run whatever is on and be topping up your batteries ( all three at once ).
Once night time comes and you have your driving lights on and the heater going and so on, you will now have a total current load that probably exceeds your alternator’s maximum output so the vehicle’s voltage starts to drop and this is quite a common occurrence in many vehicles, not just in your case, but in your specific situation it is going to occur more often than would normally occur in most vehicles.
As the voltage drops because of the high current requirements, your batteries will start supplying the difference between what your alternator is producing and what is the total requirement.
For example, if your alternator is flat out at 50 amps and the total requirement is 65 amps, the additional current will come from the three batteries, each providing about 5 amps.
Every time your current load goes down below 50 amps, all additional current available from your alternator will go back into topping up all three batteries again and so.
I make dual battery controllers and normally I don’t push them but in this case I would recommend fitting my SC40 Dual Battery Controller.
Reason being, the SC40 has the unique operating procedure of NOT disconnecting the auxiliary battery from the cranking battery when the motor is turned off but maintains the connection until the common voltage drops to 12 volts.
In a normal set up this is done to allow the cranking battery to supply about 50% of it’s stored capacity to assist the auxiliary battery to power any accessories and allow a much longer lime before having to recharge the battery(s).
In your case, if you fit any other controller, as soon as the voltage drops while your driving, at the very time you want the additional current available from the auxiliary batteries, the isolator will drop out.
Whereas, the SC40 keeps all the batteries connected and you get the full benefit of all three batteries.
Anyway, that my suggestion, cheers.
You would be wasting your money installing any form of hi tech battery as you won’t be able to get any additional advantage out of them.
Fit two additional flooded wet cell cranking batteries and don’t do anything about your alternator for the time being.
I’ll come to the Dual battery controller later, but will happen is while you are driving and you don’t have everything on, your alternator will be producing enough current to run whatever is on and be topping up your batteries ( all three at once ).
Once night time comes and you have your driving lights on and the heater going and so on, you will now have a total current load that probably exceeds your alternator’s maximum output so the vehicle’s voltage starts to drop and this is quite a common occurrence in many vehicles, not just in your case, but in your specific situation it is going to occur more often than would normally occur in most vehicles.
As the voltage drops because of the high current requirements, your batteries will start supplying the difference between what your alternator is producing and what is the total requirement.
For example, if your alternator is flat out at 50 amps and the total requirement is 65 amps, the additional current will come from the three batteries, each providing about 5 amps.
Every time your current load goes down below 50 amps, all additional current available from your alternator will go back into topping up all three batteries again and so.
I make dual battery controllers and normally I don’t push them but in this case I would recommend fitting my SC40 Dual Battery Controller.
Reason being, the SC40 has the unique operating procedure of NOT disconnecting the auxiliary battery from the cranking battery when the motor is turned off but maintains the connection until the common voltage drops to 12 volts.
In a normal set up this is done to allow the cranking battery to supply about 50% of it’s stored capacity to assist the auxiliary battery to power any accessories and allow a much longer lime before having to recharge the battery(s).
In your case, if you fit any other controller, as soon as the voltage drops while your driving, at the very time you want the additional current available from the auxiliary batteries, the isolator will drop out.
Whereas, the SC40 keeps all the batteries connected and you get the full benefit of all three batteries.
Anyway, that my suggestion, cheers.
2007 TDV8 Range Rover Lux
2009 2.7 Discovery 4
2009 2.7 Discovery 4
Standard alternator should be 70a.
I'd look at why your alternator isn't keeping up rather than masking the problem by throwing more batteries at it.
If you're getting to the point where there isn't enough power to start your engine with one battery, more batteries will just delay the same result.
I worked out your absolute max current draw being somewhere around 55a, and you should have a 70a alternator so it should be able to keep up with the lights etc, even if it's not charging your battery very quickly - but it's not, so something is wrong.
Is your alternator not producing a high enough voltage? Is it not able to deliver the necessary current due to diode failure/worn brushes/worn slip ring/faulty regulator? Any one of these problems is cheap to fix, cheaper than a battery at least.
After you've got your charging system working properly, add a second cranking battery and isolator of your choice, or a cheap wet cell deep cycle might also fit your needs, Bosch /Century make an N70 sized one that is about the same price as a cranking battery, but will survive deeper discharges better.
I'd look at why your alternator isn't keeping up rather than masking the problem by throwing more batteries at it.
If you're getting to the point where there isn't enough power to start your engine with one battery, more batteries will just delay the same result.
I worked out your absolute max current draw being somewhere around 55a, and you should have a 70a alternator so it should be able to keep up with the lights etc, even if it's not charging your battery very quickly - but it's not, so something is wrong.
Is your alternator not producing a high enough voltage? Is it not able to deliver the necessary current due to diode failure/worn brushes/worn slip ring/faulty regulator? Any one of these problems is cheap to fix, cheaper than a battery at least.
After you've got your charging system working properly, add a second cranking battery and isolator of your choice, or a cheap wet cell deep cycle might also fit your needs, Bosch /Century make an N70 sized one that is about the same price as a cranking battery, but will survive deeper discharges better.
Drivesafe - you're Traxide?drivesafe wrote:Hi Ezookiel, a dual or triple battery set up would be an advantage but NOT Optimas.
You would be wasting your money installing any form of hi tech battery as you won’t be able to get any additional advantage out of them.
Fit two additional flooded wet cell cranking batteries and don’t do anything about your alternator for the time being.
I’ll come to the Dual battery controller later, but will happen is while you are driving and you don’t have everything on, your alternator will be producing enough current to run whatever is on and be topping up your batteries ( all three at once ).
Once night time comes and you have your driving lights on and the heater going and so on, you will now have a total current load that probably exceeds your alternator’s maximum output so the vehicle’s voltage starts to drop and this is quite a common occurrence in many vehicles, not just in your case, but in your specific situation it is going to occur more often than would normally occur in most vehicles.
As the voltage drops because of the high current requirements, your batteries will start supplying the difference between what your alternator is producing and what is the total requirement.
For example, if your alternator is flat out at 50 amps and the total requirement is 65 amps, the additional current will come from the three batteries, each providing about 5 amps.
Every time your current load goes down below 50 amps, all additional current available from your alternator will go back into topping up all three batteries again and so.
I make dual battery controllers and normally I don’t push them but in this case I would recommend fitting my SC40 Dual Battery Controller.
Reason being, the SC40 has the unique operating procedure of NOT disconnecting the auxiliary battery from the cranking battery when the motor is turned off but maintains the connection until the common voltage drops to 12 volts.
In a normal set up this is done to allow the cranking battery to supply about 50% of it’s stored capacity to assist the auxiliary battery to power any accessories and allow a much longer lime before having to recharge the battery(s).
In your case, if you fit any other controller, as soon as the voltage drops while your driving, at the very time you want the additional current available from the auxiliary batteries, the isolator will drop out.
Whereas, the SC40 keeps all the batteries connected and you get the full benefit of all three batteries.
Anyway, that my suggestion, cheers.
Sweet. Congrats on a cool product. I assume you read the doc I wrote on it. Your's came in as the most cost effective isolated system bar none.
Can I get a free isolator now?
Paul
Lexus LX470 - hrrm Winter Tyres
Gone - Cruiser HZJ105 Turbo'd Locked & Lifted
Gone - 3L Surf
Gone - Cruiser HZJ105 Turbo'd Locked & Lifted
Gone - 3L Surf
Sorry Paul, I just took it you knew Taxide was my company.me3@neuralfibre.com wrote:Drivesafe - you're Traxide?
Sweet. Congrats on a cool product. I assume you read the doc I wrote on it. Your's came in as the most cost effective isolated system bar none.
Can I get a free isolator now?
Paul
Cheers.
PS, liked your write up
2007 TDV8 Range Rover Lux
2009 2.7 Discovery 4
2009 2.7 Discovery 4
Isn't it a fact that alternators only produce full charging above a certain number of revs?festy wrote:Standard alternator should be 70a.
I'd look at why your alternator isn't keeping up rather than masking the problem by throwing more batteries at it.....
Remember I'm off-roading, at night, across a mountain range, avoiding roos for all I'm worth, at low speed. Very low speed quite often.
Hence the fact that two hours of low speed, crawling work, is going to leave even a 70a producing insufficient charging.
Well, at least, that's my understanding of them, but I may be wrong.
I'd like some details about the SC40.
Can you supply me some details of cost, and how to go about ordering one, and above all, getting one fitted (as I have NO intention of attempting THAT sort of work myself)
I know the you-beaut batteries are dear and unnecessary to solve the problem, but I hate "maintenance free" batteries, they very rarely seem to actually be maintenance free, and still need topping up or looking after in various ways. I like Gel because I have a crowded engine bay, and jealously guard internal space in the vehicle, so want batteries that can be mounted in almost any position to utilise every nook and cranny, and are genuinely maintenance free.
I know they're dear, but if I'm doing a job, I may as well do it as well as possible, and the 900+CCA in some of the optimas is some serious cranking amps in anyone's language.
[url=http://www.4x4him.org]Bringing the Christian Rock Crawling Community a little closer[/url]
Hi,
Maybe I've read this thread too fast and missed something, but he's running twin thermo's. AFAIK they can pull up to 30A per motor.
I have twin thermo's in a RR with a 55A alt, Jaycar's $90 isolator and two big batteries. At idle my voltage drops below the normal zone on the meter. The alt is basically only running one of the fans, lights maybe, wipers maybe, stereo.
I've had issues on cold nights on trips - one thermo, normal lights, spots, wipers, heater motor and 200 watt stereo going, sucking main battery. The alt can't keep up when it's running one thermo motor all the time with all the other stuff.
The el cheapo isolator I have will cut off the second battery if the main one gets below a certain level (know this because I left the lights on one night and could easily jump start from second batt).
Love the thermo's and the solution is going to be fitting a second alt and split the system and maybe not use an isolator.
cheers, DL
Maybe I've read this thread too fast and missed something, but he's running twin thermo's. AFAIK they can pull up to 30A per motor.
I have twin thermo's in a RR with a 55A alt, Jaycar's $90 isolator and two big batteries. At idle my voltage drops below the normal zone on the meter. The alt is basically only running one of the fans, lights maybe, wipers maybe, stereo.
I've had issues on cold nights on trips - one thermo, normal lights, spots, wipers, heater motor and 200 watt stereo going, sucking main battery. The alt can't keep up when it's running one thermo motor all the time with all the other stuff.
The el cheapo isolator I have will cut off the second battery if the main one gets below a certain level (know this because I left the lights on one night and could easily jump start from second batt).
Love the thermo's and the solution is going to be fitting a second alt and split the system and maybe not use an isolator.
cheers, DL
Thanks tj81,
I'm far from being an electrics guru. Using EL clones that can keep a 350 Chev very happy with standard 3.5 RR rad. Reckon the 2nd fan has only kicked in 5 times in 2 years. Runs about 1/4 - 1/3 all the time on temp gauge.
One of these fans must suck some juice tho because it can flatten a big new batt in pretty short time if the alt is not connected. I know from experience when I was putting this thing together. Maybe too flat to crank in 15 mins or less.
DL
I'm far from being an electrics guru. Using EL clones that can keep a 350 Chev very happy with standard 3.5 RR rad. Reckon the 2nd fan has only kicked in 5 times in 2 years. Runs about 1/4 - 1/3 all the time on temp gauge.
One of these fans must suck some juice tho because it can flatten a big new batt in pretty short time if the alt is not connected. I know from experience when I was putting this thing together. Maybe too flat to crank in 15 mins or less.
DL
No, I'm not running twin thermos, just one, and no idea where it came from as it was put there by previous owner.
Thanks for all the info and inputs, basically I think I'll run the whole vehicle through an auto-electricians, to see what she's doing when all that stuff is running and under load etc, and then see what my options are from there.
Anyone know a decent auto-sparkie in Canberra ?
Braddon Auto Electrical are sposed to be the duck's guts I hear, but I also believe they're a bit exxy.
Thanks for all the info and inputs, basically I think I'll run the whole vehicle through an auto-electricians, to see what she's doing when all that stuff is running and under load etc, and then see what my options are from there.
Anyone know a decent auto-sparkie in Canberra ?
Braddon Auto Electrical are sposed to be the duck's guts I hear, but I also believe they're a bit exxy.
[url=http://www.4x4him.org]Bringing the Christian Rock Crawling Community a little closer[/url]
Drivesafe, don't totally agree with your statement that there are no additional advantages from hi tech batteries. Have been running a dual battery system for years now and had traditionally used normal wet cell lead acids.drivesafe wrote:Hi Ezookiel, a dual or triple battery set up would be an advantage but NOT Optimas.
You would be wasting your money installing any form of hi tech battery as you won’t be able to get any additional advantage out of them.
Some time back hit a couple of tracks up at the Watagans that were very steep inclines. On lifting the bonnet to connect the compressor to pump up my tires I was met with battery acid everywhere. Going up and down the extremely bumpy inclines, acid spewed out the breathers on the battery filler caps. One hell of mess. My deep cycle was supposedly maintenance free and it still leaked.
Now run a Gell N70 for the deep cycle and an Optima Red top for the cranking and have had no more problems with spillages. Further more they seem to handle the corrigations a lot better.
The Optima has a 3 year warranty, most others only have a 6 month or 12 month, so probably the money you pay out for one evens out over their longevity.
So... first hand experience has seen the advantages of units such as the Optima.
Cheers
Rainsey
2in body lift, 2" supension ,33" BGG Muddies, rear ARB Air locker... still scraping the ground!
I'm interpreting someone elses post, but I read it as Optima's wouldn't be of specific advantage in this case where it seems likely that input is less than output. A dual battery system *may* help by having some reserve capccity.rainsey wrote:Drivesafe, don't totally agree with your statement that there are no additional advantages from hi tech batteries. Have been running a dual battery system for years now and had traditionally used normal wet cell lead acids.drivesafe wrote:Hi Ezookiel, a dual or triple battery set up would be an advantage but NOT Optimas.
You would be wasting your money installing any form of hi tech battery as you won’t be able to get any additional advantage out of them.
Some time back hit a couple of tracks up at the Watagans that were very steep inclines. On lifting the bonnet to connect the compressor to pump up my tires I was met with battery acid everywhere. Going up and down the extremely bumpy inclines, acid spewed out the breathers on the battery filler caps. One hell of mess. My deep cycle was supposedly maintenance free and it still leaked.
Now run a Gell N70 for the deep cycle and an Optima Red top for the cranking and have had no more problems with spillages. Further more they seem to handle the corrigations a lot better.
The Optima has a 3 year warranty, most others only have a 6 month or 12 month, so probably the money you pay out for one evens out over their longevity.
So... first hand experience has seen the advantages of units such as the Optima.
Cheers
Rainsey
Personally I think the Optima's are overpriced and would prefer a chinese AGM.
Paul
Lexus LX470 - hrrm Winter Tyres
Gone - Cruiser HZJ105 Turbo'd Locked & Lifted
Gone - 3L Surf
Gone - Cruiser HZJ105 Turbo'd Locked & Lifted
Gone - 3L Surf
Try a 120 amp alternator
I needed more amps for my GQ Diesel and after much investigation with various units and inquiries regarding rewiring etc I found a 120 amp alternator to replace the dodgy 65 amper from an electrical importor in Brisbane. Cost me almost $600 at trade price. Had the vacum pump and all I had to do was knock out a spacer to fit. PM if you need the name of the supplier. I go to Moreton for two weeks so I will see how well it works charging the dual system after the 110 litre waeco fridge draws the amps.
92 GQ TD42 5 speed wagon. Twin LSD. 35's, 2' lift and 2' body lift
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