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Nissan radius arm FLEX design
Nissan radius arm FLEX design
There is a story about this and a bit of tech info along the way.
In an effort to get decent flex and performance out of my GQ I decided a few weeks back to contact one of our sponsors of the DGR lux, Mick at Superior Engineering to pick his brains on what can be done to my lwb GQ. It was worth the call as he had a heap of options for me to look at and he was currently building his comp car so I was able to try different things on it - so long as I put it back to how it was.(5" lift, drop arms, longest toughdogs . . . . .new longarm rear rearend)
Firstly I tried his rig on the travel ramp to see how it went, and he also had a customer there who wanted to try his 5" lifted gq wagon as well, so this gave me a great 'baseline' for the amount of flex available from different setups.
Here comes the tech bits! Basically what I discovered was that 3-4" lift didn't hurt the pin mount too much in terms of bind but the radius bushes maxxed out long before the shocks. (First tried the longest travel tough dogs) thinking the shocks might be the problem I removed them and brought around a set of 15" travel procomps and some 16" racerunners, just incase!!! Even with the shocks removed I could not get any more than 110mm differential measured across the shock mounting position. These measurements are also very similar to both the 5" drop arms and the STD arms with drop boxes, although the ride with the drop boxes is much better. The boys also had all the test data kept from Brian’s 5link conversion, so it gave me a great target to aim at to design a setup that had similar flex. My main design objective is always drive-ability and the way it puts power to the ground (comes from my drag racing background), which is why the DGR lux has been so successful over the years - STABILITY, GROUND PRESSURE AND POWER TRANSFER.
So a few beers later, a lot of measurements and a lot of chalk sketches on the floor, I came up with an idea!! So off to work to draw it up and test it using our FEA design package. Well the numbers looked good so it was now time to make a dummy arm, so Monday night we started cutting out the plates and making a new arm, finished it off last night and pressed in a pair of std bushes, then it was off to the ramp for the moment of truth! (The pics taken last night were crap with car headlights so Mick took some new ones early this morning on the wet grass!!)
The newly designed arms are a blend of two different styles of arms, each complimenting the angles of deflection required for controlled flex. The key is to change the planes of deflection to allow full movement and resist that terrible binding and tearing of bushes that always occurs. The other main design criteria was to transmit complimentary torque back into the chassis to reduce the 'ROLLY' feeling that 5links and Xlinks are known for. This eliminates/reduces the need for a front swaybar both on and off road. This was the hardest part to calculate as the amount of torque required is non-linear across the axle width. But after having a good play on a hill close by (insane angles!!!) it works unbelievably well. These links are purely for a test ATM, but after seeing how well they work Mick at Superior want to start selling them as a kit. They will be purely bolt on, well I did it so it can’t be too hard. They will compliment his new long-arm kit perfectly, at least now we have all the data documented – spring rates, shock lengths, shock tower heights, and travel lengths. I have certainly learnt heaps about getting flex out of nissans, a lot of setups I had always though worked well have actually proven to be very disappointing, but hopefully this might give you guys some ideas.
The parts are all designed around a complete bolt-on setup, i have all the drawings so if he does want to sell them it would be easy to get the bits all laser cut. I couldnt see the cost being mch more than a std type 'drop-arm' kit, but there are a few extra bolts, 2 mount adapter plates and spacer. Also one thing that i did find out in testing is that with that amount of flex it needed 230mm of shock travel in the front, so the longest toughdog limits travel only by about 10-15mm, so there is no need for weird shocks/&towers just std ones modified to a set height ~100-120mm depending on the spring combination, and vehicle setup.
In an effort to get decent flex and performance out of my GQ I decided a few weeks back to contact one of our sponsors of the DGR lux, Mick at Superior Engineering to pick his brains on what can be done to my lwb GQ. It was worth the call as he had a heap of options for me to look at and he was currently building his comp car so I was able to try different things on it - so long as I put it back to how it was.(5" lift, drop arms, longest toughdogs . . . . .new longarm rear rearend)
Firstly I tried his rig on the travel ramp to see how it went, and he also had a customer there who wanted to try his 5" lifted gq wagon as well, so this gave me a great 'baseline' for the amount of flex available from different setups.
Here comes the tech bits! Basically what I discovered was that 3-4" lift didn't hurt the pin mount too much in terms of bind but the radius bushes maxxed out long before the shocks. (First tried the longest travel tough dogs) thinking the shocks might be the problem I removed them and brought around a set of 15" travel procomps and some 16" racerunners, just incase!!! Even with the shocks removed I could not get any more than 110mm differential measured across the shock mounting position. These measurements are also very similar to both the 5" drop arms and the STD arms with drop boxes, although the ride with the drop boxes is much better. The boys also had all the test data kept from Brian’s 5link conversion, so it gave me a great target to aim at to design a setup that had similar flex. My main design objective is always drive-ability and the way it puts power to the ground (comes from my drag racing background), which is why the DGR lux has been so successful over the years - STABILITY, GROUND PRESSURE AND POWER TRANSFER.
So a few beers later, a lot of measurements and a lot of chalk sketches on the floor, I came up with an idea!! So off to work to draw it up and test it using our FEA design package. Well the numbers looked good so it was now time to make a dummy arm, so Monday night we started cutting out the plates and making a new arm, finished it off last night and pressed in a pair of std bushes, then it was off to the ramp for the moment of truth! (The pics taken last night were crap with car headlights so Mick took some new ones early this morning on the wet grass!!)
The newly designed arms are a blend of two different styles of arms, each complimenting the angles of deflection required for controlled flex. The key is to change the planes of deflection to allow full movement and resist that terrible binding and tearing of bushes that always occurs. The other main design criteria was to transmit complimentary torque back into the chassis to reduce the 'ROLLY' feeling that 5links and Xlinks are known for. This eliminates/reduces the need for a front swaybar both on and off road. This was the hardest part to calculate as the amount of torque required is non-linear across the axle width. But after having a good play on a hill close by (insane angles!!!) it works unbelievably well. These links are purely for a test ATM, but after seeing how well they work Mick at Superior want to start selling them as a kit. They will be purely bolt on, well I did it so it can’t be too hard. They will compliment his new long-arm kit perfectly, at least now we have all the data documented – spring rates, shock lengths, shock tower heights, and travel lengths. I have certainly learnt heaps about getting flex out of nissans, a lot of setups I had always though worked well have actually proven to be very disappointing, but hopefully this might give you guys some ideas.
The parts are all designed around a complete bolt-on setup, i have all the drawings so if he does want to sell them it would be easy to get the bits all laser cut. I couldnt see the cost being mch more than a std type 'drop-arm' kit, but there are a few extra bolts, 2 mount adapter plates and spacer. Also one thing that i did find out in testing is that with that amount of flex it needed 230mm of shock travel in the front, so the longest toughdog limits travel only by about 10-15mm, so there is no need for weird shocks/&towers just std ones modified to a set height ~100-120mm depending on the spring combination, and vehicle setup.
Last edited by 1MadEngineer on Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WWW.TEAMDGR.COM
WWW.SUPERIORENGINEERING.COM.AU
WWW.LOCKTUP4X4.COM.AU
WWW.SUPERIORENGINEERING.COM.AU
WWW.LOCKTUP4X4.COM.AU
its good to see finally somone doing a comprehensive make for the front of the trolls ..... keep it up fellar... and as always mick from superior will produce a top quality work piece
Eliteforce Heavy Fabrication
Proud supporter of these businesses:-
Pig Dog Shop(hunting)- Greg 0448024776
CrispProducts(Racetec Gauges)-Chris(pm him)
Fourbies at Moorooka- Ryano
Proud supporter of these businesses:-
Pig Dog Shop(hunting)- Greg 0448024776
CrispProducts(Racetec Gauges)-Chris(pm him)
Fourbies at Moorooka- Ryano
...
Ill pay $$$$$ for a set...
[quote="MSCHIF"]SPUA its like shaving a barbie dolls head, amusing but pointless.[/quote]
Good thing you didn't have longer shocks because he would of driven over the end of his ramp. Then we will need a ramp build up thread. Very impressive indeed. I am very curious, I think Mick will get a visit from me next week.
Shane
Shane
We sell SUSPENSION - PRICES on
https://www.suspensionstuff.com.au" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Free Freight 1300 048 991
FLEXY COILS - Superior Engineering - TIGERZ11 - Tough Dog - PROCOMP - Polyair - ETC
https://www.suspensionstuff.com.au" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Free Freight 1300 048 991
FLEXY COILS - Superior Engineering - TIGERZ11 - Tough Dog - PROCOMP - Polyair - ETC
...
I'm excited....
Keep looking at the photos really close too ( 3 mounting points on the diff end of the passenger side radius arm ??@?@?@?@??@?@?!?!?!?! - or am I blind) there are a couple there where you would expect to see the length of the radius arm, but you can't see anything so they must be pretty well tucked up.
Keep looking at the photos really close too ( 3 mounting points on the diff end of the passenger side radius arm ??@?@?@?@??@?@?!?!?!?! - or am I blind) there are a couple there where you would expect to see the length of the radius arm, but you can't see anything so they must be pretty well tucked up.
[quote="MSCHIF"]SPUA its like shaving a barbie dolls head, amusing but pointless.[/quote]
No shocks were fitted4WD Stuff wrote:Good thing you didn't have longer shocks because he would of driven over the end of his ramp. Then we will need a ramp build up thread. Very impressive indeed. I am very curious, I think Mick will get a visit from me next week.
Shane
AMADAXTREME Racing
Sponsors-
AmadaXtreme
Superior Engineering
www.superiorengineering.com.au/
Sponsors-
AmadaXtreme
Superior Engineering
www.superiorengineering.com.au/
i noticed that, cant wait to see how this performs this weekend and next week on the street. im getting all excitedWilly Hilux wrote:No shocks were fitted4WD Stuff wrote:Good thing you didn't have longer shocks because he would of driven over the end of his ramp. Then we will need a ramp build up thread. Very impressive indeed. I am very curious, I think Mick will get a visit from me next week.
Shane
97 GQ patrol coilcab. TD42, safari turbo kit with fiddled turbo, D-GAS kit. dyno results to come...
4inch lift, king springs, efs and procomp shocks
315/70R16 cooper ST's
found fuel economy...
4inch lift, king springs, efs and procomp shocks
315/70R16 cooper ST's
found fuel economy...
Can someone put some shocks on those photos for me. ASAP.love ke70 wrote:i noticed that, cant wait to see how this performs this weekend and next week on the street. im getting all excitedWilly Hilux wrote:No shocks were fitted4WD Stuff wrote:Good thing you didn't have longer shocks because he would of driven over the end of his ramp. Then we will need a ramp build up thread. Very impressive indeed. I am very curious, I think Mick will get a visit from me next week.
Shane
We sell SUSPENSION - PRICES on
https://www.suspensionstuff.com.au" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Free Freight 1300 048 991
FLEXY COILS - Superior Engineering - TIGERZ11 - Tough Dog - PROCOMP - Polyair - ETC
https://www.suspensionstuff.com.au" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Free Freight 1300 048 991
FLEXY COILS - Superior Engineering - TIGERZ11 - Tough Dog - PROCOMP - Polyair - ETC
sorry for the slow reply guys, i don't get on OL on the w'end much.
as said those pics were no shocks, so we could make templates and work out final shock lengths. details: REAR - long arm kit, micro-alloy 5" rear springs and the sad part - 18" shocks, yep thats right it uses every bit of 18" travel race runner shocks and even then we had to lean them in a little. we were amazed to see that it has so much compression that the original bump stop was being touched!!! but however the longest toughdogs were a good compromise as they were the limiting factor in regards to compression. Mick has all the details on the spring, i cant remember??
FRONT - std style 4-6" drop arm on drivers side, new high flex arm on passenger side with mount plates (similar to castor plates but used to get a strong mounting point in a different pivot plane at the back of the diff) and spacer ( to strengthen the std front bolt holt). 5" springs and 10.5" travel toughdogs on 115mm high shock towers. we are currently tryin to get a set of those awesome micro-alloy springs for the front, so there is a set of 15" travel procomps waiting to be trialled.
if you need more info ring Mick at superior, i forgot half this stuff.(too busy playing with the hydro)
as said those pics were no shocks, so we could make templates and work out final shock lengths. details: REAR - long arm kit, micro-alloy 5" rear springs and the sad part - 18" shocks, yep thats right it uses every bit of 18" travel race runner shocks and even then we had to lean them in a little. we were amazed to see that it has so much compression that the original bump stop was being touched!!! but however the longest toughdogs were a good compromise as they were the limiting factor in regards to compression. Mick has all the details on the spring, i cant remember??
FRONT - std style 4-6" drop arm on drivers side, new high flex arm on passenger side with mount plates (similar to castor plates but used to get a strong mounting point in a different pivot plane at the back of the diff) and spacer ( to strengthen the std front bolt holt). 5" springs and 10.5" travel toughdogs on 115mm high shock towers. we are currently tryin to get a set of those awesome micro-alloy springs for the front, so there is a set of 15" travel procomps waiting to be trialled.
if you need more info ring Mick at superior, i forgot half this stuff.(too busy playing with the hydro)
WWW.TEAMDGR.COM
WWW.SUPERIORENGINEERING.COM.AU
WWW.LOCKTUP4X4.COM.AU
WWW.SUPERIORENGINEERING.COM.AU
WWW.LOCKTUP4X4.COM.AU
The other main design criteria was to transmit complimentary torque back into the chassis to reduce the 'ROLLY' feeling that 5links and Xlinks are known for.
5links maybe
The second majour point of the XLink is that it delivers an exact equal amount of torque to both arms in any wheel travel position meaning it wont try to tip you over when you give it a boot full or jump on the brakes. No bushing or arm design will eva offer what the XLink can and as for "Rolly feeling " looks like you havent driven an XLinked rig! right.
Chad
hey got a Question!
What is "transmit complimentary torque" mean? I think the XLink does it but im not sure??
5links maybe
The second majour point of the XLink is that it delivers an exact equal amount of torque to both arms in any wheel travel position meaning it wont try to tip you over when you give it a boot full or jump on the brakes. No bushing or arm design will eva offer what the XLink can and as for "Rolly feeling " looks like you havent driven an XLinked rig! right.
Chad
hey got a Question!
What is "transmit complimentary torque" mean? I think the XLink does it but im not sure??
whats the Xlink like around corners? from what ive seen, heard and been told, they just start to roll and keep rolling. due to the nature of the design?professor wrote:The other main design criteria was to transmit complimentary torque back into the chassis to reduce the 'ROLLY' feeling that 5links and Xlinks are known for.
5links maybe
The second majour point of the XLink is that it delivers an exact equal amount of torque to both arms in any wheel travel position meaning it wont try to tip you over when you give it a boot full or jump on the brakes. No bushing or arm design will eva offer what the XLink can and as for "Rolly feeling " looks like you havent driven an XLinked rig! right.
Chad
hey got a Question!
What is "transmit complimentary torque" mean? I think the XLink does it but im not sure??
i like the idea of an Xlink, but from what i ahve heard i wouldnt want it on a daily rig. whats your thoughts on this?
cheers, andrew
97 GQ patrol coilcab. TD42, safari turbo kit with fiddled turbo, D-GAS kit. dyno results to come...
4inch lift, king springs, efs and procomp shocks
315/70R16 cooper ST's
found fuel economy...
4inch lift, king springs, efs and procomp shocks
315/70R16 cooper ST's
found fuel economy...
Everyone wants it all!love ke70 wrote:whats the Xlink like around corners? from what ive seen, heard and been told, they just start to roll and keep rolling. due to the nature of the design?professor wrote:The other main design criteria was to transmit complimentary torque back into the chassis to reduce the 'ROLLY' feeling that 5links and Xlinks are known for.
5links maybe
The second majour point of the XLink is that it delivers an exact equal amount of torque to both arms in any wheel travel position meaning it wont try to tip you over when you give it a boot full or jump on the brakes. No bushing or arm design will eva offer what the XLink can and as for "Rolly feeling " looks like you havent driven an XLinked rig! right.
Chad
hey got a Question!
What is "transmit complimentary torque" mean? I think the XLink does it but im not sure??
i like the idea of an Xlink, but from what i ahve heard i wouldnt want it on a daily rig. whats your thoughts on this?
cheers, andrew
you can't have it.
it is definatly more supple and that is what is intened but they are not scary to drive as implyed.(there is now a simple lockoff for the XLink too) There is allot to think about and its not just bolting somthing up. as stated spring rates shock rates and loads all play a part. its hard to make a device that covers all bases to suit every situation ie handleing and travel to work together.
I look forward to see how the new arms perform.
back to the arms
Chad
Last edited by professor on Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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