heh, cool!
I chatted to Shannons insurance. They were useless and couldn't help me!
So much for their stupid ads
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Running a zook without swaybar?
Not really.
Extended shackles cause 3 problems with handling:
One is added leverage on the bushes etc which will be helped a little by the swaybar, but a swaybar is not really designed to counter lateral movement so it will help just because there are more bushings fighting the movement, but not much.
The increase in ride height, and therefore increased COG will increase body roll. The swaybar will help this.
The #1 effect of longer shackles though is a reduction in caster. this screws with turn in and makes the car feel like the steering is even slower and won't self centre. the Swaybar being on or off will have no effect on this.
Also, the swaybar mounts on on sierras are designed around the length of the shackles. Lengthing the shackles will put the swaybar and shackles out of phase and can cause binding.
Steve.
Extended shackles cause 3 problems with handling:
One is added leverage on the bushes etc which will be helped a little by the swaybar, but a swaybar is not really designed to counter lateral movement so it will help just because there are more bushings fighting the movement, but not much.
The increase in ride height, and therefore increased COG will increase body roll. The swaybar will help this.
The #1 effect of longer shackles though is a reduction in caster. this screws with turn in and makes the car feel like the steering is even slower and won't self centre. the Swaybar being on or off will have no effect on this.
Also, the swaybar mounts on on sierras are designed around the length of the shackles. Lengthing the shackles will put the swaybar and shackles out of phase and can cause binding.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Deviating away a little bit, but anyway.Gwagensteve wrote: The #1 effect of longer shackles though is a reduction in caster. this screws with turn in and makes the car feel like the steering is even slower and won't self centre. the Swaybar being on or off will have no effect on this.
This is my rough estimate for calculating how much angle of castor you will lose by extending your shackles:
Angle = arctan(standard shackle length / Spring length) - arctan(extended shackle length / Spring length)
I believe a Sierra should have 8 degrees castor standard. I also belive the typical understanding in the automotive industry is a minimum of 5 degrees of castor (Rule of thumb only).
I don't have standard numbers on me at the moment, but I think that makes the typical 2" extended shackles give about 4.5 degrees of castor; which is under the 5 degree rule of thumb!
This is assuming a very simplified suspension system, and is not 100% correct.
Wheeling on completely wicked angles, without even looking stable.
I've never tried to crunch the numbers Highway-Star, but my understanding from the FSM (and I don't have one in front of me) is caster for a stock sierra is 1 deg. +/- 1 deg.
4.5 degress would be a lot, and 8 would be insane - I don't even think big mercs run anything like that much, and they run massive caster because they're designed for high speed and all have power steering.
Adding 2" of shackle will take caster into negative, which is where the evil handling comes from.
Steve.
4.5 degress would be a lot, and 8 would be insane - I don't even think big mercs run anything like that much, and they run massive caster because they're designed for high speed and all have power steering.
Adding 2" of shackle will take caster into negative, which is where the evil handling comes from.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
DGA are much easier to deal with... their Australian 4WD Insurance division actually understands about 4WDs...StarkRavingSimmo wrote:heh, cool!
I chatted to Shannons insurance. They were useless and couldn't help me!
So much for their stupid ads
On a different note, and I am the first to admit I know stuff-all about IFS... what's the go with removing a sway bar on a Vit? Any major hassles onroad? I'm keen to get a bit more out of Oscar's front end...
DRS smells like a cat-food milkshake... and wet socks... and gorgonzola cheese... all whizzed up in a blender
The only possible answer to this question Squik is to remove it, take the car for a drive and see if you like the feel. Some people do, some people don't. It's personal preference for road behaviour.
It won't turn the car into a killer, and *should* improve the feel due to some strange quirks of the vitara suspension design, but it's up to you.
Steve.
It won't turn the car into a killer, and *should* improve the feel due to some strange quirks of the vitara suspension design, but it's up to you.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Excuse my ignorance but DGA is who exactly?Squik wrote:DGA are much easier to deal with... their Australian 4WD Insurance division actually understands about 4WDs...
On a different note, and I am the first to admit I know stuff-all about IFS... what's the go with removing a sway bar on a Vit? Any major hassles onroad? I'm keen to get a bit more out of Oscar's front end...
Gwagensteve - yeah thanks, I realise that. Just figured to get opinions as well from those who have done it. I'm still trying to get my head around IFS... so used to solid front ends... 
DGA Insurance, they specialise in 4WD Insurance. Pretty good, they will insure anything as long as it has an engineers cert where needed and insure for non-gazetted roads. Eg: If you drive your 4WD off a cliff or dune in the middle of nowhere, you are covered.
They allow you to itemise your accessories as well for market replacement value...
Only thing they won't cover you for is comp'
DGA Insurance, they specialise in 4WD Insurance. Pretty good, they will insure anything as long as it has an engineers cert where needed and insure for non-gazetted roads. Eg: If you drive your 4WD off a cliff or dune in the middle of nowhere, you are covered.
They allow you to itemise your accessories as well for market replacement value...
Only thing they won't cover you for is comp'
DRS smells like a cat-food milkshake... and wet socks... and gorgonzola cheese... all whizzed up in a blender
Gwagensteve wrote:I've never tried to crunch the numbers Highway-Star, but my understanding from the FSM (and I don't have one in front of me) is caster for a stock sierra is 1 deg. +/- 1 deg.
4.5 degress would be a lot, and 8 would be insane - I don't even think big mercs run anything like that much, and they run massive caster because they're designed for high speed and all have power steering.
Adding 2" of shackle will take caster into negative, which is where the evil handling comes from.
Steve.
Meh I Stuffed up According to the Samurai FSM, standard castor (in wheel alignment section), is 3 degrees and 30 minutes. Kingpin angle is 9 degrees, that must be where I stuffed up.
That means (If you still use my piece of trig from above), that 2" shackles should give 0 degrees of castor. Yep thats a problem in my book.
Oh and the bit I was raving about 5 degrees min, thats me mixed up too
. Its 5 degrees maximum.Wheeling on completely wicked angles, without even looking stable.
I believe that above 5 degrees produces the death wobbles.
I reckon your trig is right. My car has about 2" over stock shackles and the steering sucks.
Steve.
I reckon your trig is right. My car has about 2" over stock shackles and the steering sucks.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
G'day,
I just removed my sway bar, and took the zook for a drive.
I found the ride to be much smoother than the choppy ride it had before.
The turn-in is much flatter, I may be wrong but i believe to be because all force was on the rear, now that the force is spread all round there is much less body roll.
High speed turning also feels much more controlled, i won't doing high speed turning again though, control under braking is much more responsive.
There is one deviation in the road which before taking the sway bar off was absolute hell on your kidneys, however now it takes much the same as mums Forester at 60km/h.
I don;t know why i didn't take the sway bar off before, its great and i definetly recommend it to any other coily owner, however a little change in my driving style was needed to make the car control better.
Cheers,
Sean
I just removed my sway bar, and took the zook for a drive.
I found the ride to be much smoother than the choppy ride it had before.
The turn-in is much flatter, I may be wrong but i believe to be because all force was on the rear, now that the force is spread all round there is much less body roll.
High speed turning also feels much more controlled, i won't doing high speed turning again though, control under braking is much more responsive.
There is one deviation in the road which before taking the sway bar off was absolute hell on your kidneys, however now it takes much the same as mums Forester at 60km/h.
I don;t know why i didn't take the sway bar off before, its great and i definetly recommend it to any other coily owner, however a little change in my driving style was needed to make the car control better.
Cheers,
Sean
[quote="v840"]fat chicks actually [i]do[/i] give better head cause they're always hungry![/quote]
That's a pretty common experience Sean. Glad you liked it.
Many people report better turn in because the outside front wheel is more heavily loaded.
It also helps to more closely match roll stiffness front to rear which is a big problem for coil sierras.
Steve.
Many people report better turn in because the outside front wheel is more heavily loaded.
It also helps to more closely match roll stiffness front to rear which is a big problem for coil sierras.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
I've been saying that for a while.
Apart from possible problems with oversteer, if it was too stiff, It could be ideal and should improve handling offroad when climbing heaps.
I very strongly believe that the best setup for an off road car is high roll stiffness in the rear and low roll stiffness in the front.
This is the opposite of how most cars are set up but leads to the most predictable behaviour when climbing and under throttle.
My G is set up like this factory (once the swaybar is pulled) unfortunately they screwed up the antisquat due to the radius arm rear and the car radically jacks under power, which straightens the suspension out and picks the front up.
Steve.
Apart from possible problems with oversteer, if it was too stiff, It could be ideal and should improve handling offroad when climbing heaps.
I very strongly believe that the best setup for an off road car is high roll stiffness in the rear and low roll stiffness in the front.
This is the opposite of how most cars are set up but leads to the most predictable behaviour when climbing and under throttle.
My G is set up like this factory (once the swaybar is pulled) unfortunately they screwed up the antisquat due to the radius arm rear and the car radically jacks under power, which straightens the suspension out and picks the front up.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
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