general advice

[cookie monster]

Hi all,

Looking at getting a sierra for the daughter to do up.
I can check for the usual stuff, but are there any unusual things to look out for when buying?
The one we are going to look at is a 1990 soft top (new soft top) with 320,000km. Looks resonable from photo's.
Owner not sure if original engine, but says it runs well and gets approx 350km per tank. Is this about right for a 40 ltr tank? I expected a bit better than that ??
We will be going over the car both mechanically and bodily as part of a school project. Will end up repainting camo pink
Hope you can help as you may save me a drive to Melbourne from Adelaide ! Oh, he is asking $1800

cheers
cookie monster

[mr green]

320000km i can't imagine how many things should be worn out. i would give it a very good check over before you buy it for your daughter. $1800 should buy you a wt with sensible k's

[Gwagensteve]

2nd that.

Lots of fatigue in the body etc, and just a whole to of wear on everything.

Shoot for under 200k.

WT's that need a tidy up go for this money all the time. you don't need to drive 700km to buy one with that many K's on it.

Steve.

[PJ.zook]

Just curious, is there a reason youre going for a sierra? If she is going to be daily driving it maybe a vitara would be more comfy.

[alien]

Vitara's are DEFINITELY more comfy =) feels more like driving a car... a Sierra is more like driving a truck... hehe

[Gwagensteve]

Which is another question altogether - Do sierra's make good first cars?

I say no, they don't. I wouldn't want a kid of mine driving in town in one.

They don't handle very well, and they're not very safe. As a daily driven car for a new driver, I would say they're about the worst choice.

Sierra's are a utility vehicle. They never had to meet the same safety or handling capabilities as a road car.

(Actually, Vitara's in stock form don't handle very well either)

Choose the right car for the job - if it's for driving on road, choose a road car that stands a chance of protecting your daughter in an accident or preventing her getting into one in the first place.

If she really wants a 4WD for going bush, then fine, she is likely to understand that she is really driving a small truck and will respect what it can and can't do.

Steve.

[PJ.zook]

I never thought of it like gwagensteve, was thinkin purely of comfort. I agree wholeheartedly, i wouldnt want a kid of mine driving a sierra either, even stock they dont drive very well and are one of the unsafest cars on the road as far as occupant safety is concerned.

[Highway-Star]

Which is another question altogether - Do sierra's make good first cars?

I say no, they don't. I wouldn't want a kid of mine driving in town in one.

They don't handle very well, and they're not very safe. As a daily driven car for a new driver, I would say they're about the worst choice.

Sierra's are a utility vehicle. They never had to meet the same safety or handling capabilities as a road car.

(Actually, Vitara's in stock form don't handle very well either)

Choose the right car for the job - if it's for driving on road, choose a road car that stands a chance of protecting your daughter in an accident or preventing her getting into one in the first place.

If she really wants a 4WD for going bush, then fine, she is likely to understand that she is really driving a small truck and will respect what it can and can't do.

Steve.

My Sierra is my first and only car. I see your point, but basically a Sierra is all I had ever driven, and I can't personally relate to the problem. Learnt from 15 to drive dads Sierra, started off in LR up in an old quarry, then progressed to HR, and when I actually got my L's progressed to on road in it. Basically I learnt to 4WD before I learnt to 2WD.

For me it was strange going to a car, I had untill then only driven the Sierra, Mums car is a Jeep so was not even used to sitting in one. So when I first drove a road car at a driver training course it was bloody wierd (proton Jumbuck first road car I ever drove). I've driven my Sisters Lancer a few times now (Her first car), and I dont really like it: crap visibility (in many ways), wierd front wheel drive handling, strange seating position etc. Besides that it doesn't body roll, its more comfortable, changes gears lovelly and has buckets more power! You can also take corners in 3rd gear, which can only rarely be achieved in the Sierra satisfactorilly.

All that said the original poster never said it was for a DD car for his daughter, its a school project for her to do up. Though i imagine this will lead to keeping the car and using it as a DD.

To answer some of Cookie Monsters questions:
- 320,000km is allot of K's. If it is the original motor its likely gonna be smoking like popeye.
- 350km out of 40L, thats crap, rebuilt engine might fix slightly. Or it might not actually hold 40L due to the typical tank ding, in which case this might not be so bad.
- Painting Camo Pink . Oh dear thats intersting, dad was gonna paint his pink because my Sister wouldn't drive it, but that was a joke.
- Unusual stuff; not that I'm aware of?
- $1800 for a WT, in QLD thats cheap for a good one, dont really know for you southeners, but its very high K's.

[spamwell]

Which is another question altogether - Do sierra's make good first cars?

I say no, they don't. I wouldn't want a kid of mine driving in town in one.

They don't handle very well, and they're not very safe. As a daily driven car for a new driver, I would say they're about the worst choice.

Sierra's are a utility vehicle. They never had to meet the same safety or handling capabilities as a road car.

(Actually, Vitara's in stock form don't handle very well either)

Choose the right car for the job - if it's for driving on road, choose a road car that stands a chance of protecting your daughter in an accident or preventing her getting into one in the first place.

If she really wants a 4WD for going bush, then fine, she is likely to understand that she is really driving a small truck and will respect what it can and can't do.

Steve.

i think that they make a good first car for lots of reasons mine have been great and i have only owned sierra's.

1.first of all you have to actually learn how to drive and be aware of all road conditions because you have to drive better to be safe, in a sierra you are forced to learn which people need. I personally think newer faster cars are more dangerous because they provide alot more confidence and you feel safer so your more layed back about it all.

2. they are cheap.. they are cheap on fuel, cheap parts, cheap insurance what a young person needs.

3. easy to manouver in and out of parks ( to prevent those nasty repair bills)

4.easy to push lol that may sound silly but as a first car there are many people who would run out of petrol or silly things like that.

5. they are easy to merge in and out of traffic in and they have great visability which is a fantasic collision avoiding +

basically your never safe nobody is safe all i can say is that because i have had the sierra i have been able to afford everything i feel like i am better driver because of it, i know the car has limits and i stick to them.

aslong as it is in the best possible condition is driven well and has a strudy roll bar your in the same situation as most small cars without airbags and all that jazz.

[MightyMouse]

Not jugding the sierra in question but:

Does your daughter really want it for off road use? If so then if she's carefull on the road - why not.

If its for around town then there are safer and more practical vehicles IMO. Besides where will the stereo and six sub woofers go ? ( joke I hope ).

[Gwagensteve]

No, sorry spamwell, I just don't agree.

You have dealt with the advantages of a Sierra well, but there are some inconsistencies in your argument.

A "newer faster" car is just not more dangerous. Not in any way. Ever.

Would you put your kids in a 1973 corolla and claim they are safer than in a modern car? Because that's the equivalent - a sierra is a commercial and has nothing except a collapsable steering column (so long as it's after 1991 ) to protect the driver. It doesn't even have intrusion bars in the doors.

A car doesn't "provide" confidence, a car has reserves of handling etc which are beyond that which is required of you drive at the speed limit. The reserves of handling etc a Sierra has are much smaller, so when an inexperienced driver makes a mistake, they are much more likely to loose control of the car and have a crash.

Inexperienced drivers experiment, with speed, with inattention, with alcohol and drugs, fatigue, loud music, SMS'ing, Talking in the phone.... This is a fact. Many parents think their kids won't be like this, but they are mistaken. It's a learning curve.

Putting them in a car with very little up their sleeve to protect them is not really responsible, whether it's active safety ( ABS, handling, road holding etc) or passive safety (airbags, ESC, BFD, etc)

None of a sierras characteristics are suited to road handling - high unspung weight, short suspension travel, high roll centres (compared to a car) very short wheelbase.

I learned to drive in a hilux, and DO believe that kids need to learn in a "real" car that requires thought and care to handle, to teach the responibility required, but once they are out on their own, that's out of the window.

I love Sierras, as a 4wd. I have no desire to DD one and think that people who buy cars to drive on road like sierras because they are "cute" or "fun" are missing the point.


Steve.

[Highway-Star]

Inexperienced drivers experiment, with speed, with inattention, with alcohol and drugs, fatigue, loud music, SMS'ing, Talking in the phone.... This is a fact. Many parents think their kids won't be like this, but they are mistaken. It's a learning curve.

NOT ALL, I hope your intention was some, not all.

I am fed up to my F'ing head with people bagging out so called 'inexperienced' or 'young' drivers. Yes us kids need to learn but saying we all drink, or listen to loud music, or talk on the phone while driving is just utter BS.

I just got tailgatted the whole way home from uni today by some F'wit in a landcruiser who was so damn close to my rear end he didn't see my brake lights come on and had to go sideways so as not to hit me, he was definitly not a kid! At one point he merged into the right lane in some crap attempt to overtake me, with oncoming cars, and without the guts in his car to actually do it up the hill.

I Know people twice my age who cannot drive safely to save their lives, so watch what you say!!! Maybe old farts shouldn't be driving 'commerials' either.

For the record:
- I do-not speed, have no interest in it, find it boring.
- Inattention, dont exactly experiment with this, its down to something else
- Alcohol, no I don't drink, never have, never will!
- Drugs, as for booze
- Loud music, constantly telling people to turn it down, love music, thats where my user name came from, but I like to be able to hear my engine.
- SMS'ing; hate it, only use it for contacting lasy group members when doiung a group assignment at uni
- Talking on the phone; spends most of its time off, I the sort of person who runs out of time on their phone credit, not calls.

Yes many parents think wrong, I do agree on this point; but DONT GENERALISE!

[mr green]

Inexperienced drivers experiment, with speed, with inattention, with alcohol and drugs, fatigue, loud music, SMS'ing, Talking in the phone.... This is a fact. Many parents think their kids won't be like this, but they are mistaken

come on steve, thats a bit harsh. thats cookie monsters daughter your talking about

[zooki]

what a load of crap, you are talking about a car being safer than a sierra passivley, IE both of em get wacked then there are lots of cars out there safer than a sierra, but same can be said of lots of cars, and trucks, and bikes, and busses, too many variables

driven responsiblly a sierra is very safe, stick to the limits and they arent going to fall over, you arent going to crush somebody or run into anyone anymore than anything else and the extra vision all round is a bonus for new drivers

look at say something like an excel, might be safer according to you but which is more likely to smash a tree at 180km/hr? if the sierra can do 100 its going to scare any young driver any higher than that and they will back off, msot little cars still feel ok at speed giving an impression of safety

your arguments and opinions are getting real tiring, your way isnt the only way and often its utter BS, perhaps its time to walk away from the suzukis you so often bag and go join overlander, they are all right all the time over there too

[Gwagensteve]

I'm not having a go at anyones daughter or trying to affend anyone, but a parent can't assume that their kid will be perfect or won't make all the same mistakes they did as a young person.

It's actually scientific fact, that's the point, it's everyone ALL young people take greater risks than they will when they are older. That's why the accident rate is so much higher for inexperienced drivers. With any endeavour, young people experiment with risk, that's part of the reason why young people learn things so much quicker. It's involuntary. (And was covered in the series on the human brain last night)

I never drank on my P's, or took (or take) drugs, but I did travel too fast for the prevaling conditions, drive when I was too tired, and do various other fairly stupid things. It still surprises me how fast I used to drive in my Hilux compared to what I do in my STi now.

It generally takes a few little scares to sort this stuff out.

However, the point people are missing is that it takes far more concentration for an inexperienced driver to assess road conditions and handle a car as they have no learned responses. The drivers themselves, without thinking, interfere with this all the time, (even through mood) and they don't need a car working against them, or trying to kill them if they do make a small mistake.

do you remember the first time you drove somwhere and didn't remember the process of the driving? It ususally happens after about 9 months or so of driving - you actually start to drive entirely on learned responses.

Highway-Star - Good on you for setting the example, but road crash statistics, hospital emergency rooms, insurance premiums and even my own experience prove you are the minority.

As for speeding being boring, speeding IS boring in a Sierra. It's like watching a train crash in slow motion. You know it's going to go bad and get scary at some point, you just have to wait. You just drive it as fast as it's comfortable with and that's that.

ACTUAL speed in an apporpriate car, on the right road, is fabulously engaging and the purity of driver/car/road in my experience is only matched when I am in my (mountain) bike on a descent- it's about getting in the zone. There are roads where you can exceed the ability of the car under the posted speed limit. Don't diss driving with some speed, where appropriate, in the right car.
Steve.

[Gwagensteve]

I'll ignore the personal attack zooki, but please look up active and passive safety.

A sierra, by any objective measure scores poorly in both.

A small hatchback will score more highly in both.

I don't hate suzukis, I just know what they are good for, and that's not for a new driver. Sorry if you think that's BS, tiring, or something.

But thankyou for adding something to the thread

Steve.

[cj]

your way isnt the only way and often its utter BS

zooki,

I'm keen to know more about the utter BS. Could you elucidate a little more please? Perhaps some examples would help and seeing as it's often, you should be able to come up with plenty or are you danman's alter ego.

[sierrajim]

I don't hate suzukis, I just know what they are good for, and that's not for a new driver. Sorry if you think that's BS, tiring, or something..

I don't think Zooki knows how hard you're trying to "preserve" a LWB Zook.

Steve loves zooks so much that he's been hiding one in his shed, undriven mind you, for what....10 years????


As for a Sierra being a "SAFE" first car, in no way would you ever call a sierra a very safe car. Short wheelbase, relatively narrow track, high COG, NO intrusion bars, seatbelts mounted to a glorified Coke can they call a B pillar, emergency brake that never works, no power steering, problems with rust, no crumple zones, 1980's design. Shall I continue?

If its an on road only car spend the $2k and but a mid 90's hatch back with a little added safety built in.

350,000km isn't that many Km when you take into account the age. 350,000km is a lot of km when you take into account that a newly freed driver is getting behind the wheel whom most likely (she might) doesn't have any mechanical skills.

Sierra's are fun, Sierra's are cool, Sierra's are cute. They also handle like crap, leak like a puppy, lack in space and are one of the easiest cars to break into.

[=SKB=]

Hi all,

Looking at getting a sierra for the daughter to do up.
I can check for the usual stuff, but are there any unusual things to look out for when buying?
The one we are going to look at is a 1990 soft top (new soft top) with 320,000km. Looks resonable from photo's.
Owner not sure if original engine, but says it runs well and gets approx 350km per tank. Is this about right for a 40 ltr tank? I expected a bit better than that ??
We will be going over the car both mechanically and bodily as part of a school project. Will end up repainting camo pink
Hope you can help as you may save me a drive to Melbourne from Adelaide ! Oh, he is asking $1800

cheers
cookie monster

Back to your question...too many k's so keep looking.

I don't think he asked for any opinions on anything else.

[grimbo]

blah blah blah.....blah...blah blah blah.

what a load of crap, you are talking about a car being safer than a sierra passivley, IE both of em get wacked then there are lots of cars out there safer than a sierra, but same can be said of lots of cars, and trucks, and bikes, and busses, too many variables

driven responsiblly a sierra is very safe, stick to the limits and they arent going to fall over, you arent going to crush somebody or run into anyone anymore than anything else and the extra vision all round is a bonus for new drivers

look at say something like an excel, might be safer according to you but which is more likely to smash a tree at 180km/hr? if the sierra can do 100 its going to scare any young driver any higher than that and they will back off, msot little cars still feel ok at speed giving an impression of safety

your arguments and opinions are getting real tiring, your way isnt the only way and often its utter BS, perhaps its time to walk away from the suzukis you so often bag and go join overlander, they are all right all the time over there too

if you actually read what he wrote instead of just glazing over because of your preconceived opinion of him you might actually understand what he is saying.

A sierra is not a safer vehicle than a same sized sedan driven by exactly the same person in a responsible way. You also have to consider other drivers into the equation and what they do.

As to his anti Suzuki bagging I would like to see your examples of this as well.

[Danzo]

maybe some of you should read this before continuing with your posts

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/phpBB2/vi ... 9575:shock:

Hi all,

Looking at getting a sierra for the daughter to do up.
I can check for the usual stuff, but are there any unusual things to look out for when buying?
The one we are going to look at is a 1990 soft top (new soft top) with 320,000km. Looks resonable from photo's.
Owner not sure if original engine, but says it runs well and gets approx 350km per tank. Is this about right for a 40 ltr tank? I expected a bit better than that ??
We will be going over the car both mechanically and bodily as part of a school project. Will end up repainting camo pink
Hope you can help as you may save me a drive to Melbourne from Adelaide ! Oh, he is asking $1800

cheers
cookie monster

I'm not getting into the previous posts, But going to answer to the best of my knowledge instead of ranting and raving about which car is the best for D/D.

un-usual things to look out for:
: have a look under the inlet manifold above the starter motor, use a torch if ya have to, You are looking for dis-colouration in the block, usually yellow-green fairly faint, as well as a crack if any,
(possible crack in the barrel which causes the outer block to crack and leak coolent-)

1990 soft top (new soft top) with 320,000km:
: I bought my 88 W/T with 305,000kms for $2000, fairly recent paint, reco'd G/Box and Transfer case, Unfortunatly the motor was sad and so are the F & R diff bearings and rear main pinion bearings, not as cheap as I thought But a LOT cheaper then some small late model cars getting around!! Yeah it has some 5cent size bits of rust under the bonnet but they are an easy fix,

Owner not sure if original engine:
You can pick up second hand motors for under $500, and only 3hours to change over by your self, Its only $550 for a reco kit to do it your self anyway.

gets approx 350km per tank. Is this about right for a 40 ltr tank? I expected a bit better than that ??
Most old tired engines only get about that anyway, maybe give it a tune up when you get it home and play with the timing a bit (10 DBTDC)
If tuned a little leaner you can get up to 420kms out of a tank but it would have to be a good motor and a granny driver, also if the tank has a small ding in it, it may only be holding 35 to 38 ltrs of fuel,

1990 model,
If the suspension looks original then it probably is flat and beyond any comfort or safe riding ability, fairly cheap and easy to fix, there are a few different combo's of different car springs in it if you didnt want to spend to much to fix it,

Good luck on the colour choice and in camo, Havent seen that one before
you probably know most of what I have said but I thought I was more to the point of your question

[spamwell]

i just think that attitude and being stupid will get you killed nomatter what car your driving. If you want one then get one just don't be silly.

anyway you should be able to find a better sierra for that price my 97 model had 180,000 and it wasd 1000 and my 81 model was $250 and it had only done 220,000

Sam

[zooki]

if you actually read what he wrote instead of just glazing over because of your preconceived opinion of him you might actually understand what he is saying.

A sierra is not a safer vehicle than a same sized sedan driven by exactly the same person in a responsible way. You also have to consider other drivers into the equation and what they do.

As to his anti Suzuki bagging I would like to see your examples of this as well.

plenty of people drive Suzukis every day and live to tell the tail, just like I am sure that plenty of new drivers hit the streets every day with more skills then a lot of long term drivers

read what I said, I said if driven properly a sierra is perfectly safe and a young 'hoon' is less likely to get themselves in serious strife over something low and a lot faster that is going to come unstuck in a big way in a hurry when its all too late, no point considering other drivers as then you have to be prepared for worst case scenario, a B double hitting you head on, what are you going to drive to survive that?

[PJ.zook]

A lot of you have missed the point, its not necessarily the drivers inexperience that is dangerous in a sierra, inexperience is dangerous in any car. What makes a sierra dangerous is anyone else hitting YOU. From any angle, youre pretty screwed, experienced driver or not.

[MightyMouse]

have a look at the safety ratings provided here http://ols2.rta.nsw.gov.au/ebus/docs/re ... rs2007.pdf

Look at the Sierra in the "how much is my vehicle going to protect me" section - its RED - bad. The explanation says it all "Significantly worse than average".

Don't get me wrong Sierras arn't on their own in that age group but things have moved on a lot from then.

No matter who hits who/what or for what reason a more safely engineered car is a better bet.

[Highway-Star]

maybe some of you should read this before continuing with your posts

http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/phpBB2/vi ... 9575:shock:

I appologise if i've offended anyone, or wasted someones time. I still stand by what I said though. I donot disagree with anyones comments on car safety (I think thats one of the reasons the Sierra was replaced by the more advanced Jimny), just the comment about drivers.

Make of it what you will...

[Big D]

I think the only safe thing about a sierra on the road is its lack of speed...
Most new drivers like to test the speed of their car and race their friends...cant really do that in a sierra. Sierra was my first car but ive been driving since i was 9. I acually bought my sierra from a 17 year old chik who was only selling it because she wanted something more femenen?

Sierra is not the best DD, but u can sure have some fun in it (drifting )

[MightyMouse]

Excuse my ignorance Cookie Monster but what the hell is "camo pink"?

I might be sorry i asked......

[alien]

sierra was my first car... i learnt a TON driving it and never had a single crash - i did a lot of "practice" on wet carparks and gravel/dirt roads to learn handling (on my own or with a mate in the passengers seat).

Once you LEARN to drive a sierra it will be as safe to drive as any other vehicle - however, in a crash it of course wont be as safe as a new plastic-paper crumpling style car... but i was always of the frame of mind of "its simple, just don't crash". =)

I avoided a few accidents in my zuk when i was on my P's - usually stopping far before any contact with another vehicle (they do have good brakes!) or jumping the kerb/medium strip/etc to avoid a collision. The clearance and rigidity of the zuk allow it to do that without even needing a wheel alignment, which a little car with a smaller contact patch on the road wont do.

[gman79au]

kids just relax!!! all i want to say if I hit something in my zook I know ill be smiling at the time cause thats why I drive one and always will be smiling thats why we drive zooks if I wanted to be safe I'd be so f^%ken boring driving my suburu or volvo Id probably kill myself for lack of whatever!!!!! after i rolled my FIRST suzuki I decided to buy a suburu 4WD wagon, good car great handling 4WD and all BUT guys it doesn't climb like even a stock zook. no fun!!!! hole in chassis rails says you need another zook and thats what i have now!!! Likes short have fun F^%K cottonwool!!!!