Camshafts and Power

[Big D]

Iv searched but i cant find much about camshafts. Im planning to raise my zook and put bigger tyres (prolly 29"). I know that the power the 1.3 has will be alot worse. I can get about 140kph top speed with it atm.

Now, i can pull my 400kg boat now with not many probs, on highway i sit a 100kph in fifth comfortably. If i add the height (about 2-3") and the 29"s to it, will the power be drained engough for me not to be able to tow my boat? I need to be able to go up hills with it (like the hills near somerset dam). I personally think it will be hopeless after those slight mods, so im asking if a camshaft, extractors and a exhaust would help in any way of improving the power after the tyres.

I know its kinda hard to understand what im asking but its kinda late at night

Thanks for any advice,

D

[ofr57]

whats wrong putting it into 4th up hills?

[St Jimmy]

try crow i think they make a cam or get your cam reground as thats what i'm doing to mine so i can get more lift and a longer duration as im sticking four motorcycle carbs on mine as i use it mainly on the beach

[MightyMouse]

There are certainly some gains to be had with a changed cam,

Remember a camshaft, like all things on a car is a compromise, you make a little more power here at the expense of a little driveability there etc.

Talk to people who have changed theirs - and very importantly find out the setup of their cars - a cam that drives well in a stock vehicle may be less suitable in a modified one and vice versa.

A brand isn't the end of the story, get the events and lift or at least a type/part number.

Reputable cam grinders will talk to you - make sure you talk to them. Tell them what you want out of the cam, and that's just not "more power", tell them where in the RPM range it matters most etc...

Good luck, don't go to aggressive IMO.

[Gwagensteve]

Just get the gearing right.

Think about what happens when you go to bigger tyres - for the same road speed, your revs are lower. You haven't lost any power at all, it's just that the added leverage of the bigger tyres loads the engine more.

A cam that adds power will generally increase top end and move peak torque up in the rev range a bit. This won't help your situation.

A stock sierra (WT) s pulling about 3300rpm at 100kph.

Going to 29's will drop that to 3000. Most cam grinds will loose you some torque at that engine speed so it won't feel any better.

Extractors may help if the exhaust and extractor design are suited to torque production.

The real answer is to get your gearing right. The easiest way is to fit a 1.0 "shift light" transfer case which will gear you pretty much exactly back to stock with the bigger tyres.

If you want a little more you can also go to NT diffs if you have a WT, for another 5% or so.

If it is down on power then, at least you know that it's not the fault of the gearing.

A transfer case swap should be able to be done for about the same money as a cam, and it will give you more reduction offroad too.

Steve.

[cj]

I agree with getting the gearing right instead. I have done a cam in a Vit (no on road gearing options to suit) and although in conjunction with other mods it made a real difference it is not the same as getting your gearing right. Now getting your gearing right AND adding more power, well that's just fun

[St Jimmy]

in my mini i had a. 1375cc twin 2"su's and a 35/75wagget cam it was sweet but i would'nt go that wild with the zook

[Big D]

Wow thanks alot for that. I guess a camshaft aint wat i need as i need more torque than hp. The gearing sounds good but how much should i be paying for it? i got a quote for a 1.6 vit carby engine swap to my zook for 2.5k (carby :( ) and a efi for around 3-3.5k. Thats heaps i rekon so ill prolly stick with the gearing if their not too much.
D

[NIK]

What else do you do with it besides tow a boat? The 1lt t case would be a good affordable option but if you go mild offroad possibly s1 rockhopper same on road reduction as 1lt case but alot more in low range would be sweet with 29s.
Another option would be a weber and exhaust, if you dont go much offroad it would be great but if you get into angles the weber needs some mods.
You could also look into 4.6 vit diff gears may be abit low though?
Try suzi 4 wrechers at Dunhevead?? not sure on the spelling but they are great on prices.
btw I had my 1600 in for $500 purchase price and not much else.
Nik

[Big D]

Well i rekon i could buy a 4agze or a 1.6 vit engine for about a 1k, so i think the labour is what the killa is. Prob is i got no idea about engines and how to put them in :( Weber i dont want cuz of the angles n stuff. But im a noob so if u know where i could get a good engine and installation, by good engine i mean low k's and not too old, then please share

D

[St Jimmy]

try e bay there is a good one on there

[Gwagensteve]

A 1.0 transfer is worth about $400.

A set of reduction gears for your transfer runs $700-$1000 plus installation.

In regards to engine swaps, the cost is never in the engine. Take a 4AGE for example -

Engine: $1K
Gearbox
Jackshaft modifications
Clutch
Fuel tank for efi, or surge tank/lift pump/HP pump
radiator
fan(s)
loom/wiring

As an example, going rate, drive in/drive out for a vitara motor swap (bottom end only, keeps your sierra head and carb) in Melbourne is about $3k. It's the labour that kills it.

Steve.

[NIK]

Steve you always have to explain things better than I do
That was what I was trying to say its the time factor and time is $$ but if you have the skills it can be done alot cheaper.
Im only moderatlery skilled (debatable) and at first the $3000 prive tag of the vit swap put me off, but with some research and preperation plus an extra pair of hands I got my 1600 in for nothing except purchase price.
Nik

[Guy]

As an example, going rate, drive in/drive out for a vitara motor swap (bottom end only, keeps your sierra head and carb) in Melbourne is about $3k. It's the labour that kills it.

Steve.

I know that this is the case (arund 2.5 to 3K) but I cant see where it all goes .. I can install a 1.6 in my garage by my self in one night, when I have not done it in years.

Oh yeah get your gearing right and add a few more ponies. I found the exhaust, cam and carb setup (on a 1.6) to be a good compromise .. mind you it would have set me back in all about $1000 several years ago.

[TheOtherLeft]

Why not buy the engine, join a 4wd club and have a tech day in installing engines?

[Gwagensteve]

I know that this is the case (arund 2.5 to 3K) but I cant see where it all goes

Because mechanics have to eat too.....

[Big D]

i dont think they do

[Guy]

I know that this is the case (arund 2.5 to 3K) but I cant see where it all goes

Because mechanics have to eat too.....

I understand that, but allowing $1200 for the motor (second hand good runner nothing to do to it apart from a service once it is installed)
Using an engine hoist and a 1.3 intake\exhaust it would not be more than a three hour job for a competant mechanic ( I am not a competant mechanic, I am a computer nerd) so even at $60 an hour thats still alot of hours ..

I still cant see where the other $1000 to $1500 is absorbed.

[Big D]

Profit

[cj]

Using an engine hoist and a 1.3 intake\exhaust it would not be more than a three hour job for a competant mechanic ( I am not a competant mechanic, I am a computer nerd) so even at $60 an hour thats still alot of hours ..

I still cant see where the other $1000 to $1500 is absorbed.

Firstly finding a good mechanic that charges $60/hr in Melbourne is not that easy. You also haven't allowed for a gasket kit, consumables, 1.3 to 1.6 adapter, tuning etc. If I was a workshop I would want to make sure that it was done right and reduce the likelihood of problems so a new clutch, leads, plugs, oil, filters, efi pump(if reqd), wiring, coolant all add up. You also need to allow for unforseen issues like stripped threads etc when dealing with older vehicles. There is no way I'd quote it as a 3 hour labour job on top of $1200 used motor of unknown quality that someone has supplied and if I supplied the motor then I need a margin on it as well plus if there are any problems with it then I am going to have to cover them too. That hasn't taken into account any head or carb issues that may be there also. The last thing a business wants to do is do a job with no margin in it and be at risk of having to fix unforseen problems. What we can do for ourselves in our backyards and what we are willing to compromise on is where we can save some $$$.

[Big D]

Well im a poor uni student atm, so i dont think i can afford a engine swap anyway I think ima just stay with the stock engine, mabie put exhaust n extractors and leave it at that. First gear will move it with 29's and a boat behind it im pretty sure, so i guess ima hav to stick with being slower than a truck

[Gwagensteve]

My point is that a 1.0 case will be about the same price as an exhaust and extractors. Exhaust *might* help, a 1.0 case will help.

Power does not fix gearing inadequacies.

Steve

[Big D]

Im sorry but i know nothing of cars kinda so i got no idea what a transfer case is. In the above post u said $400 for it-well yeh thats nothing i would buy that- but then after u said for reduction gears to go in the transfer is like 1k. Do i have to have reduction gears? im sorry for my insolence

[Guy]

Im sorry but i know nothing of cars kinda so i got no idea what a transfer case is. In the above post u said $400 for it-well yeh thats nothing i would buy that- but then after u said for reduction gears to go in the transfer is like 1k. Do i have to have reduction gears? im sorry for my insolence

The one litre transfer case is about 12% lower than your current transfer case. This helps by letting the motor spin at the correct (or closer to correct) number of RPM at a given speed on or off road.
It sounds to me like you dont use your Zuk much as a 4wd is that correct ?
(The transfer case is the second gearbox under the car that the 2wd/4wd stick goes into)

[Guy]

My point is that a 1.0 case will be about the same price as an exhaust and extractors. Exhaust *might* help, a 1.0 case will help.

Power does not fix gearing inadequacies.

Steve

Power does not fix gearing inadequacies offroad I agree. But haveing driven vehicles with both gearing and additional power as predominintaly on-road vehicles I will take the 1.6 over gears any day.
Off road the extra gears are great I agree 100% (but power and gears are better)

[Highway-Star]

Im sorry but i know nothing of cars kinda so i got no idea what a transfer case is. In the above post u said $400 for it-well yeh thats nothing i would buy that- but then after u said for reduction gears to go in the transfer is like 1k. Do i have to have reduction gears? im sorry for my insolence

When I'm trying to figure out suitable gearing/torque requirements for setting up vehicles I use an excel spread sheet with engine torque (peak usually for simplicity) and all the relevent gear reductuions, and the wheel diameter.

What I get from this is the force the car will exert on the road. I have the spread sheet on my home PC, and I'm uni at the moment, otherwise I'd give off some numbers.

Its only a simple model, not accounting for friction losses and wind drag, but gives good comparison when your deviating from standard. Basically I aim to achieve the standard vehicle setup wheel force value.

I'm sorry If you don't understand this, I don't know your exact level of knowledge in this area. If you want to keep it simple though, forget power, only worry about torque. Torque = Force x Radius. So when wheels get bigger the radius gets bigger, which meens you need more torque to get the same force at the wheels (Force = Torque / Radius). More torque can be achived in two basic ways, gear reduction, and a torqier motor.

If you want to improve the vehicle offroad, then its often more desirable to use the gearing method, as it has other benefits offroad. If you want to use the vehicle for racing then you would usually get a heftier motor (or your camshaft option), so you can keep high gearing for a better top speed. You sound like you want to tow your boat; for this both would be suitable, however if it was my car I'd choose gearing as its simpler, and to my mind safer. Dont bother with the exhaust to fix the problem, they do improve engine output IMO, but not enough to compensate bigger tyres.

[Big D]

Thanks heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeps. Yeah i havnt been 4wding at all with my zook yet Its my DD to uni though, so i use it more on road than off, BUT i wanna go ofroad wen i get it lifted at bigger tyres.

I think im going to get it lifted, and puit the 29's on then see how mcuh slower it goes etc. If its really bad than ill prolly get that 1.0L transfer case. I gotta wait till uni holidays but cuz thats wen i work, so its gonna be a couple more weeks before i can do/buy anything.

Dylan