Well after months of procrastination ( I call it planning but... ) I have finally got round to fitting an Applause aircon compressor to use as an air compressor on the Mouse ( sort of F300 Feroza )
Small cars generally use a vane style compressor whereas "Endless Air" use axial piston which is technically better suited to conversion - but they cost a hell of a lot more than $20, are heaps larger and certainly don't come with the correct mounting hardware.
If you have aircon then tuff - I'm envious but having a really bad run with electric air compressors, compressed air is a far higher priority
Used a Applause mounting bracket as their alloy whereas the Feroza one I have is cast iron. As my belts are non standard I would suggest using Feroza stuff - but there's a few possibilities so I will leave that up to you.
It aligns with the front pulley which used to drive the power steer only.
The suction and discharge fittings on the compressor can be recycled or modified, however I pulled my compressor apart, did a little machining and drilled them to standard BSP threads.
Ran the suction side via rubber hose up to the air cleaner, but the discharge is stainless braided teflon hose as it runs hot and isn't all that far from the extractors. Don't compromise on the discharge line, the discharge is hot and can easily melt / soften plastic.
Have fitted a small oil/water separator on the inner guard just in case the thing passes any of its lube oil into the discharge air - doesn't seem to be an issue but I had one so.... The discharge air has a slight oily smell but could have put too much in as its all a bit hit and miss. Using 20W50 engine oil as lube.
Pneumatic system uses compressor to separator then check valve to a two litre receiver manifolded to airlocker solenoid(s) and outputs at each side of vehicle to pump up tyres.
Currently have a pressure gauge in the system just for testing but if I can find a place to mount it neatly will leave it in.
Electric system uses a dash mount switch an ARB pressure switch and relay to control the compressor clutch
Existing ARB electric air compressor is still connected pneumatically ( isolated via another check valve ) but just unplugged. Can be put back on line in under a minute if the engine driven one goes wrong.
Results so far ( day 1 ) - so far VERY pleased.
Used to take ARB electrica compressor around 20 seconds to bring system up to pressure, at idle now around 3 seconds - at higher RPM far less.
Tyres around 1 minute from 15 PSI to 35 PSI but varies greatly with engine RPM ( higher RPM - faster fill ).
So unless my bad luck with air compressors continues - this SHOULD be a pretty good solution.
Stay tuned for the nex exciting episode of the "Compressed Air Battle"..
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Aicon aircompressor
Moderator: Tiny
Aicon aircompressor
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
MightyMouse wrote:Oh and its dead silent.....
On hot days my A/C compressor used to sound like a milo can full of nuts and bolts rolling down a hill!Chatto if you haven't got power steering then it shouldn't be too hard to mount an extra compressor where the power steering pump sits. If you've got A/C and power steer then there isn't much space left.
David
If you have aircon then its MUCH harder - although theres room above the exhaust manifold but you would need to do some fabrication and a heat shield wouldn't hurt.
Or as Murcod says if you don't have power steer....
I wouldn't try for a smaller compressor - their out there, but output is much lower. They probably still have reliability on their side compared with electric compressors ( can you tell I havn't had a good run with electric compressors ? )
Still its VERY cost effective, even if you have to make a bracket - compared with "Endless Air" systems which wouldn't bolt straight on anyway.
Or as Murcod says if you don't have power steer....
I wouldn't try for a smaller compressor - their out there, but output is much lower. They probably still have reliability on their side compared with electric compressors ( can you tell I havn't had a good run with electric compressors ? )
Still its VERY cost effective, even if you have to make a bracket - compared with "Endless Air" systems which wouldn't bolt straight on anyway.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Update.....
Did a days driving with it in and its working well - but pumping some of its lube oil out the discharge, which is what vane compressors do......
Have now fitted a return line from the oil separator to the compressor intake with a small needle valve as a restrictor. With clear line you can see small quantities of lube oil flowing back to the intake - so its now a closed loop system.
Could just be that I have put too much oil in, its hard to tell how much is required given it recirculates internally - but I'd rather have more oil in the system than less......
Also the gauge will end up being a fixture, its just too silent and I really like to be able to confirm that I have pressure for the locker before tackling the hard stuff. A lamp off the pressure switch is another option.
As for pumping up tyres, its great - with a fast idle ( 2000 rpm or so ) around 30 secs. from 15 to 35 PSI per tyre.
Did a days driving with it in and its working well - but pumping some of its lube oil out the discharge, which is what vane compressors do......
Have now fitted a return line from the oil separator to the compressor intake with a small needle valve as a restrictor. With clear line you can see small quantities of lube oil flowing back to the intake - so its now a closed loop system.
Could just be that I have put too much oil in, its hard to tell how much is required given it recirculates internally - but I'd rather have more oil in the system than less......
Also the gauge will end up being a fixture, its just too silent and I really like to be able to confirm that I have pressure for the locker before tackling the hard stuff. A lamp off the pressure switch is another option.
As for pumping up tyres, its great - with a fast idle ( 2000 rpm or so ) around 30 secs. from 15 to 35 PSI per tyre.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Mightlymouse - I think I'm going to forget about my vane compressor and fit a York. Yes, it will be a PITA to mount, but my vane is way too slow to justify the tank and all my boasting about how good engine compressors are. (Maybe I;m spoiled by having the york in my G for so long?
Steve.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Does that mean that we won't have to listen to those angry squirrels quite so much anymoreGwagensteve wrote:Mightlymouse - I think I'm going to forget about my vane compressor and fit a York. Yes, it will be a PITA to mount, but my vane is way too slow to justify the tank and all my boasting about how good engine compressors are. (Maybe I;m spoiled by having the york in my G for so long?
Steve.
[quote="4WD Stuff"]
I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously :finger: :finger: :finger: :finger: [/quote]
I haven't quoted Grimbo because nobody takes him seriously :finger: :finger: :finger: :finger: [/quote]
I don't think you could get a smaller AC compressor if you tried than the 660 one you have fitted. Your comparing ants and elephantsGwagensteve wrote:Mightlymouse - I think I'm going to forget about my vane compressor and fit a York. Yes, it will be a PITA to mount, but my vane is way too slow to justify the tank and all my boasting about how good engine compressors are. (Maybe I;m spoiled by having the york in my G for so long?
Steve.
The Applause one is probably 400% larger mechanically but the swept volume would be significantly greater. My receiver is tiny compared with yours - but I can pump tyres in real time and as I havn't got a lot of room under the vehicle that's just as well.......
The York style compressors are definitely very suited for use as air compressors, its just that the bolt on nature of the Applause unit onto factory mounts etc makes it worth a bit of experimentation - and given my future "plans" the cylindrical layout of the vane unit doesn't get in the way..
It certainly generates lots of air ( at least when compared with the electric ones I have used ), so a bit of work on lube currently seems worth the effort.
The 660 is going to look a bit undersize with a York compressor hanging off the side... and their fairly heavy - but doing what it takes to get fast, reliable compressed air is well worth the effort IMO.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
I agree - interestingly though the KYB compressor from the 660 is shared with an aussie Mirage, so it's not weird, just small.
If I have to refabricate mounts to run a different compressor I don't want to use another vane/axial piston compressor that might have a short/unknown life.. I might as well either go endless air or york... and ones $50 from a wrecker
I agree your packaging problems nd the performance you're getting make yours viable.. they're just not in every case.
Steve.
If I have to refabricate mounts to run a different compressor I don't want to use another vane/axial piston compressor that might have a short/unknown life.. I might as well either go endless air or york... and ones $50 from a wrecker
I agree your packaging problems nd the performance you're getting make yours viable.. they're just not in every case.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Yes its a "bang for buck" and "bolt on" option.
Unknown lifespan is also something to consider, however as AC compressors, vane are known for their reliability ( at least thats what the books says ) so with correct lubrication it will hopefully last.
If I had a choice I'd use an Axial Piston unit - but I can't find an evidence that they were ever fitted. If your not going to use axial piston then you have eliminated "Endless Air" as that's exactly what they are.
Have you a compact York style compressor in mind ? traditionally their quite large.
Unknown lifespan is also something to consider, however as AC compressors, vane are known for their reliability ( at least thats what the books says ) so with correct lubrication it will hopefully last.
If I had a choice I'd use an Axial Piston unit - but I can't find an evidence that they were ever fitted. If your not going to use axial piston then you have eliminated "Endless Air" as that's exactly what they are.
Have you a compact York style compressor in mind ? traditionally their quite large.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Be prepared to have a line up at the end of your next run. Its not uncommon for me to air up 5-6 vehicles at a time, after a club run. Some guys dont even bother getting their piddly little ARB electrics out, just line up next to my Rocky. I have done 6 vehicles plus my own in the same time a guy with a Kmart special did 3 tyres, and thats at fast idle, probably around 1500rpm. Much faster, and the compressor cycles and refills the tank faster than the air hose discharges it to the tyres. Comp cuts in and out about every second.
Mud makes excellent toothpaste.
Oh no Mightymouse.. I am going for visual balance, 100A alternator on one side.... engine.... york compressor on the other
Endless air is the way to go, they're very impressive - but a york will work just as well, is 1/8th of the price, and the work involved in fitting is exactly the same.
BundyRumandCoke - I've been running a york into a big tank for about 7 years on my Gwagen, and nobody bothers to get their little compressors out when it's on a trip. I miss that speed which is why I'g going with a york on the 660.
Steve.
Endless air is the way to go, they're very impressive - but a york will work just as well, is 1/8th of the price, and the work involved in fitting is exactly the same.
BundyRumandCoke - I've been running a york into a big tank for about 7 years on my Gwagen, and nobody bothers to get their little compressors out when it's on a trip. I miss that speed which is why I'g going with a york on the 660.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Have really missed the "G" - well its compressor anyway, if you had charged a buck a shot you would have payed for an endless. 
And if pigles gets unbalanced then you can step up to a 150 Amp alternator or one of the water cooled units - they are big suckers....... ( goes the G have a water cooled alternator ? )
And if pigles gets unbalanced then you can step up to a 150 Amp alternator or one of the water cooled units - they are big suckers....... ( goes the G have a water cooled alternator ? )
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Nah, just a bosch thing with an tach output.
I think it only 65 amp or so- mechanical motor, no power accessories... it's pretty light on it's electricals.
Steve.
I think it only 65 amp or so- mechanical motor, no power accessories... it's pretty light on it's electricals.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Another "Update"
Had a long search to find out what viscosity oil a vane AC compressor should run. Its more difficult than it looks as for AC purposes they deal with high and low temps / refrigerant adsorption etc etc making the quoted numbers difficult to translate into a SAE viscosity at its projected operating temp.
However it would seem engine oil is too light so have swapped to transmission oil. Has increased its output at very low revs ( 500 ) so it would seem to be doing a better job of sealing the vanes and the oil separator doesn't seem to be doing anything now - and the post separator air filter is clean.
Will have to do a few serious trips to be certain, but have a good feeling about it.
Had a long search to find out what viscosity oil a vane AC compressor should run. Its more difficult than it looks as for AC purposes they deal with high and low temps / refrigerant adsorption etc etc making the quoted numbers difficult to translate into a SAE viscosity at its projected operating temp.
However it would seem engine oil is too light so have swapped to transmission oil. Has increased its output at very low revs ( 500 ) so it would seem to be doing a better job of sealing the vanes and the oil separator doesn't seem to be doing anything now - and the post separator air filter is clean.
Will have to do a few serious trips to be certain, but have a good feeling about it.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Bit of an aside, but have you had any experience with "Big Red" air compressors made by Thomas Compressors USA.
TJM are the suppliers. I've had one of these for years and it's never given me any greef. Mounted in the engine bay and all...
I know its no comparison to an endless air or similar but just wondered if you had a bad word about them.
Just interested thats all.
Cheers
TJM are the suppliers. I've had one of these for years and it's never given me any greef. Mounted in the engine bay and all...
I know its no comparison to an endless air or similar but just wondered if you had a bad word about them.
Just interested thats all.
Cheers
If it doesn't have two sticks, I don't wana know about it!
Havn't used one myself - but have seen one used by a club member for tyres and it doesn't seem to be a problem - in fact he swears by it.
However my theory ( and that's all it is ) is that keeping the 80 - 90 PSI receiver pressure required for the airlocker is MUCH harder on the compressor than pumping from 15 - 35 PSI and it doesn't start unloaded either as is normal for tyre inflation.
My history is two burnt out motors, 2 disintegrated sets of piston rings and a discharge valve that wouldn't seal - all on 3 different brands.
All but the discharge valve I put down to excessive load - the valve was just a crap design that wasn't worth fixing.
And the buggers always seem to fail when I'm miles from anywhere and really need the locker
However my theory ( and that's all it is ) is that keeping the 80 - 90 PSI receiver pressure required for the airlocker is MUCH harder on the compressor than pumping from 15 - 35 PSI and it doesn't start unloaded either as is normal for tyre inflation.
My history is two burnt out motors, 2 disintegrated sets of piston rings and a discharge valve that wouldn't seal - all on 3 different brands.
All but the discharge valve I put down to excessive load - the valve was just a crap design that wasn't worth fixing.
And the buggers always seem to fail when I'm miles from anywhere and really need the locker
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
No worries. Was just interested thats all.
Mine works a treat, but like you said, im not working it as hard as you probably are with yours. Plan to fit a receiver tank soon with an ARB pressure cut off but I hope to use a non-return valve after the compressor so im not relying on the compressor discharge valve to hold the pressure for longer periods of storage.
Possibly overkill but it cant hurt.
Your system sounds like its a winner. Well done.
Cheers
Mine works a treat, but like you said, im not working it as hard as you probably are with yours. Plan to fit a receiver tank soon with an ARB pressure cut off but I hope to use a non-return valve after the compressor so im not relying on the compressor discharge valve to hold the pressure for longer periods of storage.
Possibly overkill but it cant hurt.
Your system sounds like its a winner. Well done.
Cheers
If it doesn't have two sticks, I don't wana know about it!
Ah yes - had non return valves fitted as well..... Even considered an unloader system, but it didn't last long enough for me to work it out.
The ARB pressure switches are great value for money and are very compact i have heard of a few failing but its possible that they weren't used with a relay. - which is asking for trouble.
I carry a spare in the toolbox as one of the compressor brands came as a kit with one in each box.
The ARB pressure switches are great value for money and are very compact i have heard of a few failing but its possible that they weren't used with a relay. - which is asking for trouble.
I carry a spare in the toolbox as one of the compressor brands came as a kit with one in each box.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
ARB pressure switches are in at ~80PSI and out at ~100psi.
On my gauge in my system it shows in at about 70 and out at just over 90.
Air lockers will not tolerate over 100psi.
Steve.
On my gauge in my system it shows in at about 70 and out at just over 90.
Air lockers will not tolerate over 100psi.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Off topic slightly but...
Does anyone know where I can get a non return valve from. Havent really looked into it yet. Was just going to try SMC or similar to see what they've got. Prefferably with 1/4" BSP thread I think from memory??
Cheers.
Does anyone know where I can get a non return valve from. Havent really looked into it yet. Was just going to try SMC or similar to see what they've got. Prefferably with 1/4" BSP thread I think from memory??
Cheers.
If it doesn't have two sticks, I don't wana know about it!
Festo, SMC, Rexroth all make good quality check valves in a very wide range of styles ranging from threaded BSP units to quick connect for nylon air line as commonly used in industry. Their only disadvantage is that they aren't cheap.
As BR&C said fitting suppliers are another source.
And as really cheap experiment - what about trying an in line check valve from a brake booster system. Its a long way from what they were designed to do but what does it cost to try ?
As BR&C said fitting suppliers are another source.
And as really cheap experiment - what about trying an in line check valve from a brake booster system. Its a long way from what they were designed to do but what does it cost to try ?
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Mighty Mouse can you post up any pictures with the aircompresson in the engine bay? Would be nice to see how would look like someone to have an aircompresson for his tyres. Also how is bolted next to the engine.
www.ferozaclub.gr
[url=http://www.ferozaclub.gr][img]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f387/heroicentaur/forum/sign.gif[/img][/url]
[url=http://www.ferozaclub.gr][img]http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f387/heroicentaur/forum/sign.gif[/img][/url]
Update.....
Well its done two days play without falling off / seizing up / generally creating problems Its got a nice thick even layer of crud over it but it looks like the oil has stayed put.
Its a pleasure not to have those @#$% electric compressors creating a din, but I'm so paranoid about compressors that I always check the pressure gauge just to be certain - so it will have to stay ( somewhere... )
Doesn't have much flow at idle - enough to keep the diff happy but needs around 1500+ RPM to really get some flow, so need to add a simple fast idle mechanism - theres' never a hand throttle around when you need one.... and no, a brick on the loud pedal isn't a solution.
An immediately obvious side effect is that during filling its very hard to get any idea of actual tyre pressure, as the gauge fitted to the tyre hose just shows somewhere between line and tyre pressure. A bit of experience and constant engine RPM will hopefully solve that.
With the old electric one you could have a pretty accurate guess most of the time but the extra pressure / flow makes it harder to do.
Well its done two days play without falling off / seizing up / generally creating problems
Its got a nice thick even layer of crud over it but it looks like the oil has stayed put.Its a pleasure not to have those @#$% electric compressors creating a din, but I'm so paranoid about compressors that I always check the pressure gauge just to be certain - so it will have to stay ( somewhere... )
Doesn't have much flow at idle - enough to keep the diff happy but needs around 1500+ RPM to really get some flow, so need to add a simple fast idle mechanism - theres' never a hand throttle around when you need one.... and no, a brick on the loud pedal isn't a solution.
An immediately obvious side effect is that during filling its very hard to get any idea of actual tyre pressure, as the gauge fitted to the tyre hose just shows somewhere between line and tyre pressure. A bit of experience and constant engine RPM will hopefully solve that.
With the old electric one you could have a pretty accurate guess most of the time but the extra pressure / flow makes it harder to do.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
Another Update - not quite so positive this time......
Have certainly managed to keep the oil out of the discharge, but when it turns off it now seems to blow oil back out the intake....
This is caused by the feedback path between suction and discharge that is a design characteristic of this type of compressor. Tried a check valve in the intake ( suggested by gwagensteve ) and this sort of solved the problem but reduced the capacity significantly. If the valve was robust enough to hold the pressure it was too restrictive on suction and vice versa...
Have adjustable needle restrictors in the oil return lines, which I had turned up pretty high to ensure oil circulation so perhaps its a setting thing.
So - another trip tomorrow - will see where the oil ends up this time....
With a bit more work on the lube system, I am certain that it COULD be made to work - but its getting less simple by the minute, which spoils the original concept a bit.
The small endless air compressor "under the bench" is looking better and better even though a bit of work will be required to machine up a mounting bracket.
Have certainly managed to keep the oil out of the discharge, but when it turns off it now seems to blow oil back out the intake....
This is caused by the feedback path between suction and discharge that is a design characteristic of this type of compressor. Tried a check valve in the intake ( suggested by gwagensteve ) and this sort of solved the problem but reduced the capacity significantly. If the valve was robust enough to hold the pressure it was too restrictive on suction and vice versa...
Have adjustable needle restrictors in the oil return lines, which I had turned up pretty high to ensure oil circulation so perhaps its a setting thing.
So - another trip tomorrow - will see where the oil ends up this time....
With a bit more work on the lube system, I am certain that it COULD be made to work - but its getting less simple by the minute, which spoils the original concept a bit.
The small endless air compressor "under the bench" is looking better and better even though a bit of work will be required to machine up a mounting bracket.
( usual disclaimers )
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
It seemed like a much better idea when I started it than it does now.
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