Help! TD42 stalls 10 secs after starting & then restarts

[UKGQ]

I'm struggling to solve a really annoying little problem with my TD42, and I'm hoping someone can give me some pointers.
The car is a 1992 Cypriot import into the UK, with a N/A TD42, 12v electrics, an inline injector pump, an SD33-type stop-solenoid, and a disposable 'canister'-type fuel filter.
I have a primer-knob on the top of the injector pump, but not one on the filter head. I don't have any kind of pump in the tank. The car isn't driven, or even started daily; more like weekly, at best.

If the car hasn't been started for a couple of days, it'll start on the button, but will stall after 10 secs exactly.
Restart it, and it's absolutely fine, and it'll idle all day if you want it to.
If the car hasn't been started for a couple of days, and you start it with the revs held up a fraction (say by 200 rpm) it'll be fine, no stalling and will continue to run fine.
Once it's been started, it'll continue to start fine until about 48hrs since it last ran, and then it's back to stalling after 10 secs.

I don't know how it drives, because I can't drive it ATM.

AFAIK, this problem's only come about since I replaced the fuel filter.
Way-back-when I did remove the fuel tank, but the car started fine after that.
Some little time later, I removed the injectors and stripped & cleaned them (prior to replacing the filter), but the car was fine after that, and in fact started and ran better.
I haven't disturbed anything else in the fuel system anywhere; no unions, nothing.
Just thought I'd mention those in case they help diagnose the problem.

I've cleaned all the o-rings etc in the water-drain assembly that screws into the bottom of the filter, and have lubricated the o-rings on the new filter before fitting.
I've even tried giving the o-rings a wipe with silicone grease, in case they were gripping and bunching up on the filter head.
IMVHO, I've got an air leak somewhere, and my best guess is around the filter head, although there are no fuel leaks there.
I believe this because:
10 seconds 'feels' about the right length of time for a bubble to get from the filter to the injectors.
If I pump the primer on the injector pump after replacing the filter, after a little while, I can hear a short hiss over by the filter head.
I'm guessing that the problem probably lies with either the o-ring on top of the filter, or the o-ring sealing the water-drain.
The filter I removed was a Motorcraft IIRC, and since then, I've tried both a Boshi and a SolidAce, and the car still stalled after 10 secs. Both filters looked pretty-much the same, although the size of the o-rings differed, specifically the one on the water-drain.

I haven't tried an OE Nissan one yet, because I can't get one :(

(JOOI, has anyone heard of Boshi or SolidAce, and if so, what's the quality like?)

So: am I right?
Is it an air leak, and if so, does 10 secs sound about the right length of time to point to it being at the filter head?
If that's the case, am I just into trying loads of filters to find one that seals?

Any help would be much appreciated.
I can post or mail pics, if they'd help.

Alex

[canuck]

It sounds like a slight air leak. Your filter does sound suspect given that the o ing is a different size. You can try bypassing the Nissan filter assembly and installing a CAVI / Delphie filter and assembly with a primer pump. If this solves your problem, then I would add another quality assembly that has a finer micron filtering ability as well as a paper media which absorbs any water which may be in suspension in your fuel. Basically the CAVI would be your prefilter.

If this does not solve your problem then you are going to have to play detective. All it takes is a small pin hole to let in enough air to cause your problems. One way to test the metal lines and rubber hoses is to slightly pressurize your fuel system from the fuel tank. A tank of air with a pressure gauge and a regulator and a way to plug the filler will do the trick. I would recommend you pressurize it to 10 psi. Leave it for 5-15 minutes at this pressure and then check for a pressure drop. If you got one, then start tracing the fuel lines from the tank to the IP looking for signs of leaking fuel. The idea is that the ai pressure will force small amounts of fuel out through the pin hole where it is drawing air. This inspection process is easiest to do if your truck undercarriage and engine bay has been degreased and is clean.

[GQ TROL]

Bit of a left-field one, but what is your oil pressure doing? I've seen some of these pumps over here with a simple EDIC setup that will cut power supply to the pump if it looses oil pressure.

I've experienced low oil pressure on start up with my truck, but if you turn it off, wait 5 secs and re-start it has the required oil pressure...so I'm just linking the two things together here...could be totally wrong.

[UKGQ]

Canuck:
Thanks for that. I'm just trying filter brand #3 - Fram - so I'll see if that solves it. That's the first decent brand-name filter I've tried, so I'm hoping it's just the two previous brands having bad seals somehow.
If not, I'll definitely try pressurising the system as you suggest. I'm just not looking forward to having to get everything clean
Do you think my diagnosis of 10 seconds being the time from the filter head to the injectors is sound though?

Trol:
Interesting one!
Thanks for that; that's somewhere I definitely wouldn't have gone.
AFAIK, the car's basically completely free of electronics - the FIP is totally manual - but whether something links to, say, the stop solenoid might be worth looking at. Easy one to prove too - just disconnect it

Thanks guys - much appreciated.

[GQ TROL]

Trol:
Interesting one!
Thanks for that; that's somewhere I definitely wouldn't have gone.
AFAIK, the car's basically completely free of electronics - the FIP is totally manual - but whether something links to, say, the stop solenoid might be worth looking at. Easy one to prove too - just disconnect it

Thanks guys - much appreciated.

Yes the pump is gear driven, but has a fuel stop solenoid as you say. The EDIC (not present on all these pumps) ultimately controlls the stop solenoid.

My experience with the EDIC on these pumps is related to the oil pressure sender, which when it gets wet will give a false reading (low pressure) and the oil pressure light comes on. The false low pressure reading causes the engine to stop (via stop solenoid and EDIC). Disconnecting the EDIC should stop the engine cut out, but you won't be able to turn it off with the key...you have to stall it. It will start again no problem.

[Patroler]

Trol:
Interesting one!
Thanks for that; that's somewhere I definitely wouldn't have gone.
AFAIK, the car's basically completely free of electronics - the FIP is totally manual - but whether something links to, say, the stop solenoid might be worth looking at. Easy one to prove too - just disconnect it

Yea i'd look at this too, my sd33 had an inline pump and a stop start control motor and when you changed the oil and filters and started the thing up it would cut out about 10 seconds in due to lack of oil pressure, i suppose one way to tell would be to disconnect the solenoid rod from the injector pump (leave it wired up tho) and start it up after a long wait (pretty sure that style pump will normally sit in run mode), then just watch the solenoid and see if it tries to turn the pump off (obviously won't as it aint connected)
If the motor turns off and the controller is not connected it pretty much has to be an air leak or fuel issue,
If the motor keeps running and the little solenoid control moves 90 or 180 degrees 10 seconds in to the run (trying to put the injector pump into stop position) then i'd say it'd be either oil filters (bad anti drainback valve) or oil pressure sender.
To stop the motor either pull the lever on the pump to the rear (from memory) and hold or simply put the car in gear with foot hard on the brake and let the clutch out.

[UKGQ]

Patroler:
Thanks for that! It's interesting to hear that the SD33 can activate the stop solenoid in response to low oil pressure too.
I'm not convinced that it isn't an air leak, but I've been blaming crappy fuel filters all this time, but it sounds like it could actually be crappy oil filters without an anti-drainback-valve in them - I changed the oil and fuel filters at the same time, and I bet the oil filters I used don't have anti-drainback valves.
I've just fitted a Fram fuel filter (- the best brand I've tried yet), and have got to wait 48hrs, which seems to be the length of time it takes for the problem to recur.
If the problem's still there with that filter, I reckon it could well be the oil filters, as you say. The car never had the problem initially, so it's probably something I've changed, which kind-of rules out the oil-pressure sender.

If I wait 48hrs, I can try it again.
Assuming it still stalls, if I wait another 48hrs (*sigh*), turn the key to ignition on (which'll put, or leave, the stop solenoid in the run position) and then pull the connector before starting the car, if it's oil pressure, the stop solenoid won't be able to shut it off, and it'll run fine.
I'm just trying to avoid removing the rod; it's a PITA to refit down there!

Awesome

[canuck]

My 91 TD4.2 Safari (Japan Spec) does not have an EDIC, so I assumed that was pretty much par for the course. Question, when it stalls, is it accompanied by white smoke from the exhaust. White smoke is a sure sign of ai in the system.

[UKGQ]

Canuck:
Thanks for that.
I don't know about the smoke TBH - I never thought to look. A good point, though, and a nice easy one to check.
I'll know for sure in 36hrs, but I think this could well be down to oil pressure - it all fits:
- the problem occurred when I changed the filters, which included the oil filters, and I bet the ones I used don't have anti-drainback-valves
- if I keep the revs up a fraction, the car will start and run fine.
Fingers crossed - this has been driving me mad for ages!

Alex

[canuck]

Alex, why not contact Fleetguard UK for all your filters. They have them all, they fit and are all good quality:

Great Britain Customer Assistance Center
Telephone: (44) 1788 853 600
Fax: (44) 1788 853 611
Email: custserve.uk@cummins.com
Address:
Cummins Filtration
Valley Drive, Valley Park
Rugby, CV21 1TN

I also recommend that you connect with the numerous TD4.2 GQ and Safari owners in the UK. A number of them are on the forum at patrol4x4.com

Cheers, John

[UKGQ]

Alex, why not contact Fleetguard UK for all your filters. They have them all, they fit and are all good quality:

Great Britain Customer Assistance Center
Telephone: (44) 1788 853 600
Fax: (44) 1788 853 611
Email: custserve.uk@cummins.com
Address:
Cummins Filtration
Valley Drive, Valley Park
Rugby, CV21 1TN

John,
Thanks for that - I'll definitely give them a go.
Am I right to assume that their filters have these anti-drainback valves that I think I'm missing?
*Edit* - just downloaded their catalogue - yup - ADBVs. Cool

I also recommend that you connect with the numerous TD4.2 GQ and Safari owners in the UK. A number of them are on the forum at patrol4x4.com
Cheers, John

You're preaching to the converted - I'm already a member of patrol4x4

Thanks again for the tip re Fleetguard - much appreciated.

Alex

[canuck]

You're preaching to the converted - I'm already a member of patrol4x4

Alex

Lexi2.25, on Patrol 4x4 presume?

[UKGQ]

You're preaching to the converted - I'm already a member of patrol4x4

Alex

Lexi2.25, on Patrol 4x4 presume?

No, UKGQ, same as here

[UKGQ]

Gents -
Many thanks - I owe you all a beer - it's definitely low oil pressure.
I started the car today, and sure enough, 10 seconds in, the stop-solenoid does its thing.
Many thanks; I'd've been throwing fuel filters on indefinitely trying to solve this on my own.
Time to call Fleetguard for some decent oil filters tomorrow.

Thanks again

[Wish I had coils]

I'm glad all could help you with your fix, I have been watching this thread with intrest. Thought this may have been your problem.

[canuck]

The filter may only be magnifying a problem with your oil pump or a blockage - such as in your oil pick-up screen. I'd run a good oil engine purge just before your next oil change and then use a good detergent oil like Delo 400. The TD4.2 puts out a lot of ash and if oil changes are not kept up things and get worn and plugged quickly. In the meantime, connect a mechanical gauge and get a reading on your hot and cold oil pressure. It will tell you what is really happening.

[UKGQ]

Hi John

I definitely think the fuel filter was contributing to the problem; the Fram I've just fitted definitely does nip up better than the previous ones.

The reason I was blaming the fuel filter was that the car always started and ran fine, right up to the point when I changed the filters, so I blamed an air leak.
If it'd never started properly, I'd've been more worried, IYSWIM.
FWIW, at idle, according to the Nissan 'gauge' (I use the word loosely...) oil pressure's about 3-4.
As I said, I've never driven the car, so I've no idea what it's like whilst driving.
I'm going to drive it for the first time this weekend, so I'll make a mental note of things like oil pressure then.

The car's done 334,000kms now, and was serviced meticulously from Day One up until fairly recently (>256,000kms, from memory), but I know it's missed quite a few services in the hands of the previous owner, which was why I was so keen to get the oils and filters etc changed ASAP.
Given it's likely to have been looked after for most of its life, I'm hoping that the recent missed services haven't done it too much harm.

I'm running 15W-40 Havoline (Texaco) ATM, which I'll change (again) once I've driven the car a bit.

What's your thinking on the best engine flush (- I assume that's what you meant) JOOI? You were spot-on with both my problem and the solution, so I'd be interested to get your take on this.

Is there not a danger at 334k (and some missed services) that an engine flush isn't just going to wash all the crap straight into the mains, though?

I rang Fleetguard today, and have got the name of a local stockist, so I'll order up some decent filters tomorrow.
Hopefully between those and decent oil, the thing'll carry on for a bit longer...!

All the best,
Alex

[canuck]

Glad to be of help. Sometimes - rarely - I get lucky on getting things right.

Anyways, there are two very good engine flush products I can recommend.

Liqui Moly's PRO-LINE ENGINE FLUSH
I have never used this one before but have heard good reports back on it. pretty much anything this company makes is top of the line product and actaully does what it claims to do. They also make Pro Moly diesel fuel system cleaner, which I have used. Top stuff.

Seafoam Motor Treatment
I have used this one on both diesel and gas engines in the sump, through the intake and through the fuel system. It is truely amazing at how well it cleans.

[UKGQ]

That's super-helpful - many thanks. I'll see what I can find.

Any downsides to flushing, or am I just being overly paranoid about washing all the sludge into the mains, and having zero compression, because it was only the carbon sealing the rings...

Alex.

[canuck]

If it is only carbon sealing the rings, then IMO it is time for a rebuild. Although I did hear about a guy who mixed methalehydrate and JB weld 50/50 and poured it into his cylinder. He let it set for have the time recommended by JB weld and then sealed up the cylinder and fired his rig up. Claims it creatse its own piston oil rings like carbon build-up can do. Says he has been driving 5,000 kms on that and has no more smoke. But that was a redneck fix on a petrol engine. Diesel pressure is considerabley more.

I like the Seafoam becuase you drive an hour for 100 kms at highway speed with it in the sump. This ensures that everything is disolved which might block the mains. Now if you only want to clean the sludge out of the sump, you can drop the pan and clean it real nice. Did this on my wife's car and what a difference in the oil staying clean after a change.

[lexi]

Hi Guys I`m lexi2.25. You prolly have filters with drainback valves.......but they may not be working well. I went through that filter thing and found that one day you would take a filter off and it was full and others ....empty. This included Fleetgaurd. I don`t look at oil light on start-up now as it varies so much.

I know 335k isn`t a big deal for TD42 but if you drop sump it may be an idea to check bearings? They might have nothing to do with low oil pressure but it is an idea.

Alex

[UKGQ]

John, Alex:

Thanks for that. A bit more food for thought there. (Apart from the JB Weld trick...)

I'm going to drive the car for the first time ever on Sat, having owned it for a year so we'll see what the oil pressure actually does on a run; that might tell us something.

Alex, I definitely agree that YMMV WRT pretty-much anything, and especially consumables, but since the car's only started having 'oil pressure issues' since I changed the oil and filters, it's either because of oil that's too thin (unlikely; I used 15W40 Havoline, which is within specs, according to the handbook) or cheap-ass oil filters, and my money's on the latter.
I reckon any filters with ADBVs will solve it, and John's Fleetguards seem as good as any, and better than most.

Beyond that, I probably do need to flush the engine; it's missed a few services recently, so I imagine there's a bunch of crap that could do with getting washed out.

Something else to stick on the To Do list

ATB,
Alex (the other one...)

[canuck]

One other thing if you do the engine purge, I jacked up the front to ensure everything drained out of the sump as best possible. I also let it drain all night, so in the morning there wasn't even a drip from the sump. I left the oil filler cap unscrewed and the filters off to ensure all the oil was as free as possible to drain back down. I presume there would be some oil still left in the system in places like the vacuum pump line.

[feral errol]

i have had the same problem and we were using fleetguard flilters, were told by nissan that the strainer in the filters was to fine to change back to nissan and the problem was solved.

[canuck]

were told by nissan that the strainer in the filters was to fine to change back to nissan and the problem was solved.

There are a few Fleetguard filters which will fit - but do not have the flow required by the TD4.2. I am no engineer but do know the ones I have on mine (mines the year with the full flow and the by-pass filter) have no problems. There was a big thread on oil filters here a year or two ago. We have also been discussing them on patrol4x4 as of late. Anyway, you need to get the right flow and the right screening for the engine. It is not a case of one size fits all. I am not going to repeate the threads but you can find both easily by searching for "oil filter" and "TD4.2".
Cheers, John