What battery to use for fridge power - Optima??

[coights 40th]

G'day guys, just need some advice on what type of battery to use with my dual battery setup.
Until now I have just used an exide extreme but are now looking at other options like the Optima yellow top or oddessey batteries.
My main requirements for the battery are to supply power to run my Engel 40lt fridge and some camp lighting whilst away in the kimberley with the car sometimes sitting for a couple of days.
The preference was towards the Optima yellow top battery (very expensive I know) as it has a good amphour rating and very quick recharge time, but I have heard that the warrantee is basically useless if things go wrong with it (how often has this happenned ).
Any advise would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

[snatch]

Seriously champ, harden up and spend the money on the optima. if you are worried about the warranty by an exide orbital both are AGM (absorbed glass mat) batteries and far superior to anything else.

If you are looking to get the best out of you set up look closely at the battery isolator system - spend the money on a piranha set up. Any thing with physical contacts and no real electronic control system is costing you fridge time. There is more to dual batteries than just closing a solenoid contact when the car starts.

[its aford not a nissan]

i have been told you shouldnt discharg a battery more than 50% , 12.1 volts this applies to agm batteries also and also they recon a car alt wont charge them properly and require anexternal source to charge them properly

any battery gurus out there?

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

Expert no, but you have been fed some incorrect info.

First the alternator discussion
A car alternator will charge most batteries fine, BUT
Deep Cycle batts are very slow to charge and will perform poorly
AGM's are very fast to charge and will perform better than a normal battery due to charging closer to 100% and charging faster.

Check out Fullriver chinese AGM's. Keep them a little cool and they are fine and 1/2 the price.

https://www.neuralfibre.com/paul has some articles I wrote on this. Look under 4wd.

Lead acid batteries are damaged by deep discharge in general. AGM's are far more tolerant and will survive. Car batts will not. Deep cycle will cope, but have slow charge rates.

There is plenty of bulldust surrounding isolators. If it costs you less than $800, then it's just a relay in a box. Don't beleive the crap, that's all they are. Drivesafe on here has a relay in a box (Traxide) that is a little better than most and well priced. I recommend checking it out, as it lets you use part of the other battery as well, making the system more cost effective.

All yo uneed to know and cost calcs are here http://neuralfibre.com/paul/?p=37
Read the spreadhseet, the numbers are suprising.

Paul

[DamTriton]

There is ony one Odyssey battery for a good reason, they are a true dual purpose with NO compromises. They're good enough to have been certified for use in aircraft (vibration, hot/cold, reliability, etc).

Get the goss on them from the manufacturer (including all charging/discharging information and graphs)...Extraordinary performance.

http://www.odysseybatteries.com/

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

There is ony one Odyssey battery for a good reason, they are a true dual purpose with NO compromises. They're good enough to have been certified for use in aircraft (vibration, hot/cold, reliability, etc).

Get the goss on them from the manufacturer (including all charging/discharging information and graphs)...Extraordinary performance.

http://www.odysseybatteries.com/

No disagreement.
But you can get the same A/H capacity and 80% of the durability at under 50% of the price from china.....
Actually Odyssey sacrifices some A/H capacity to get better CCA and MCA ratings, but that's a design choice.

Paul

[duallux]

I would have to agree with Paul. After just finishing much research on this just recently, i found that AGM batteries, like Fullriver, did justifiably the same job as Odessey, just at much better prices. You'll probably find you'll get a bigger 20Hr rating for better price, with out sacrificing quality. You will pay more that a flooded cell though.

Remember keys to good charging are cables (think short and thick) and good connections. Most alternators will have no problems charging an AGM, they like it around 14.1-14.5V this should take it to full capacity. Don't Let sit discharged when you get home either.
Matt.

[coights 40th]

Thanks guys for the feedback and info, I'm happy that there was no bad reports on the Optima battery.
Cost is not an issue when I go to buy the battery, just reliability and it's ability to supply power when and for how long needed. The other factor of course was it's ability to recover quickly when recharging. I have fitted a Piranha dual battery setup a while ago for charging the battery whilst driving and will have a small generator with us if needed at camp when we're on our trip (prefer not to use it).
I had discounted the odessey out of the equation due to it's lower amp/hour rating compared to the Optima, although it is still a very good battery.
The cheaper Chinese batteries sounded good, but the heat in the engine bay may cause dramas when up in the Kimberley region. I noted in one of the replies that you should try to keep them a little cooler.
So once again thanks and it looks like a trip to get an Optima battery tomorrow for me.

[its aford not a nissan]

and where to get fullriver batts from brisbane?

[-Scott-]

I ordered mine from the importer, and had it delivered to home in Adelaide. Freight was cheap.

[GUJohnno]

Check out Fullriver chinese AGM's. Keep them a little cool and they are fine and 1/2 the price.

Do you have a part number for these and do you know of some places that sell them?

Drivesafe on here has a relay in a box (Traxide) that is a little better than most and well priced. I recommend checking it out, as it lets you use part of the other battery as well, making the system more cost effective.

Just had a look at these, very nice set up with them.

Johnno.

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

I crammed a pair of 120A/H fullriver into the cruiser bays (just, very just)

www.energymatters.com.au

[duallux]

I believe fullriver batteries can be obtained from Spingers. 2 stores, one at Tingalpa and one Lawnton/Strathpine on the northside.

Matt

[Jaffa]

I know you said you were going to buy the optima, but I thought Id post my experience with optimas.

They are the best battery! I have had my yellow top optima for about 7 years, and I recon is still as good as the day I got it, the first one I got was actually faulty, it was swapped over no fuss at all. The optima has been in 4 different cars, 2 of them only used offroad, I have it mounted on its side (so it fits under the zook bonnet) and have had the battery upside down quite a few times (<----- see avatar) I have used to to run (not all at the same time) fridges, driving lights, a big car stereo, inverters, CB's, GPS, jump starting and even used it for about 4 months in the missus's car when the alt die and we didn't want to fix it, only had to charge it once a week even when using headlights and heater etc. The other thing they are great for is their slow self discharge rate, I cant remember the figures but it something like over 12months they will only loose 10% of their charge, a normal lead-acid would be dead in a few months.

Anyway hope this helps someone

Brendan

[drivesafe]

OK just got to put a cat amongst the pigeons.

First of, I personally think the Optima battery range are the Rolls Royce of batteries and like a Rolls Royce, they are priced accordingly.

Now, why the obsession with AGM batteries, in all fairness they are just one more battery to choose from and contrary to the common belief, most brands of AGMs are not as robust as the standard flooded wet cell battery when used in an automotive situation.

If you do your home work you will find that flooded wet cell batteries can be used in most of the situations that an AGM can but are not as temperamental as most AGMs.

Most AGMs are NOT designed to take full inrush current EG Fullriver batteries should not be charged with a current greater that 20% of the battery’s total A/H, in other words a 100 A/H Fullriver battery should not be charged with charge current greater than 20 amps. So how do you economically control the charge current of an AGM battery in a vehicle?

Most AGMs can not take as high a charging voltage as a flooded wet cell Battery.

Most AGMs are not designed to tolerate the high temperature found in any engine bay.

Here’s a point most people miss, you can buy two smaller flooded wet cell batteries ( say 80 A/H ) for around the same price as a cheap 100 A/H AGM battery and because of the differences in the amount of discharging that is needed to achieve the same amount of used capacity, EG, if you need 80 AH for a two day stop over, you have to use 80 AH ( discharged to 20% SoC ) from the AGM but only 40 AH ( discharged to 50% SoC ) from the two Flooded wet cell batteries.

So when it comes to recharging either battery set up it will take about the same time to fully charge the two 80 A/H batteries as it will to fully charge the single 100 A/H AGM.

Further more, because your are not discharging the flooded wet cell batteries as low as the AGM, they should have near the same operating life as cheap AGMs.

But the best part of having two 80 A/H batteries is that if you at some time need more power, you will have up to 110 AH if you take the flooded wet cell batteries down to 30% SoC and taking Flooded wet cell batteries down to 30% SoC occasionally is not going to have much effect on the batteries operating life.

There are pros and cons for using either type of battery, don’t ride off flooded wet cell batteries just because there’s a new kid on the block.

Cheers.

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

I have to agree with Drivesafe.

AGM's and temp is a problem. I have put some effort into keeping mine cool.

The spreadsheet and article I linked to higher up showed clearly that for $/watt hr, wet cells are as cost effective as anything else. Deep cycles are very much not as cost effecttive in a common 4wd system.

Paul

[RoldIT]

All valid points to which I agree with most.

My experience, I bought 2 Full River 100AH batteries in 2005 to go in to 2 seperate GU Patrol, 4.2TD engine bays. They have run most electronic gear including fridges, lights and radios since then, trips in to the centre with 40c+ air temps outside without issue. They have pretty much been installed and forgotten about and still hold excellent charge and happily run fridges in (sometimes) direct sunlight for 2 days without reaching 12.0v. My fridge lives under a black tonneu cover in direct sunlight most of it's camping life.

Not arguing with anyone points of view, justing stating my experiences for the record. I would happily buy FullRiver batteries again.

I bought those (on order) from Battery World in Wantirna, Melb for $230 each at the time.

[drivesafe]

Hi RoldIT, there is no reason for not using these batteries under the bonnet as long as you understand the potential problem that heat can cause.

Many people use them successfully but an AGM battery is likely to fail if the heat is excessive, while a standard flooded wet cell is FAR more likely to be unaffected by the same amount of heat and this is my point about some of the limitations of using AGMs, while you need to be aware of the potential problem that heat can cause if using an AGM, no similar consideration is required if a flooded wet cell is used.

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

Cheap $2 windscreen heat shields srapped around the batts keep most of the heat out. The batts produce some heat themselves, so some source o cool air is good. L/C is easy as they are behind the headlights and get cool air (kinda). Patrol is harder and may benfit from a duct.

Paul

[RoldIT]

Hi RoldIT, there is no reason for not using these batteries under the bonnet as long as you understand the potential problem that heat can cause.

Many people use them successfully but an AGM battery is likely to fail if the heat is excessive, while a standard flooded wet cell is FAR more likely to be unaffected by the same amount of heat and this is my point about some of the limitations of using AGMs, while you need to be aware of the potential problem that heat can cause if using an AGM, no similar consideration is required if a flooded wet cell is used.

Thanks. I wasn't disputing anything you or anyone stated, I agree it needs to be considered. Just saying, in my current experience I have not been affected by heat issues, that's not to say it won't occur in the future.

[GUJohnno]

I'm in the process of moving my 2n battery out of the engine bay as the battery sits too close to the turbo.

I have just bought the largest yellow top available from Optima (BTW the prices have just gone up on the Optima's).
There is enough reserve in these large units to run a fridge for nearly 4 days in the high country. The reason I went for Optima, is that they are fully sealed, can be placed in the vehicle and they re-charge very fast compared to the std. flooded plate type batteries.

Johnno.

[Toli]

OK my second battery is dead, holding under 50% of it's capacity. It is an orbital at about 12 months old. (Got it from work, I work for a fork lift company so might be no chance of warranty will speak to them tomorrow)

Anyway I was thinking of getting something with more A/hrs after reading this thread and some of the links in it. The orbital is 55amp/hrs from what I read.

What I will need is to power a waeco 50litre fridge (no freezer) some low 1amp hour lights for a weekend camping trip. Say get to location friday night and leave Sunday.

Now most of my driving is also 30 minutes or 2 - 3 hours for trips away. I have a battery charger at home as well.

So I am thinking I am going to need a 100amp/hr battery to fill my requirements.

Anyone want to recommend anything, or anyone know of any local deals going on.

I need it by the easter weekend.

Cheers,

[RRturboD]

Re OPTIMAS availability
I have been supplying OL users for a few years now, so if you decide you want an Optima, have a look at www.optimabatteries.com.au for the specs and models etc, PM me (include location) and I'll let you know how much.

[GUJohnno]

I'm in the process of moving my 2n battery out of the engine bay as the battery sits too close to the turbo.

I have just bought the largest yellow top available from Optima (BTW the prices have just gone up on the Optima's).
There is enough reserve in these large units to run a fridge for nearly 4 days in the high country. The reason I went for Optima, is that they are fully sealed, can be placed in the vehicle and they re-charge very fast compared to the std. flooded plate type batteries.

Johnno.

I have installed my big optima but I am now having issues with being able to charge it.
Apparently they need about 14.1+ volts to charge them. My alternator (just 18 months old) is putting out about 13.8 volts wich is within spec of the manufacturer.
Getting another alternator may fix it, but they can't garentee what voltage output it will have.

Another choice may be the Merlin AMS Alternator Management System as seen here;
http://www.bainbridgetechnologies.com/i ... 69&site=v1
(4th product down)

Bit dirty that the suppliers of the battery hadn't mentioned any of this in the 3 times I was there discussing possible solutions. Each time I had my vehicle there as well.

Any thoughts guys?

[DamTriton]

I'm in the process of moving my 2n battery out of the engine bay as the battery sits too close to the turbo.

I have just bought the largest yellow top available from Optima (BTW the prices have just gone up on the Optima's).
There is enough reserve in these large units to run a fridge for nearly 4 days in the high country. The reason I went for Optima, is that they are fully sealed, can be placed in the vehicle and they re-charge very fast compared to the std. flooded plate type batteries.

Johnno.

I have installed my big optima but I am now having issues with being able to charge it.
Apparently they need about 14.1+ volts to charge them. My alternator (just 18 months old) is putting out about 13.8 volts wich is within spec of the manufacturer.
Getting another alternator may fix it, but they can't garentee what voltage output it will have.

Another choice may be the Merlin AMS Alternator Management System as seen here;
http://www.bainbridgetechnologies.com/i ... 69&site=v1
(4th product down)

Bit dirty that the suppliers of the battery hadn't mentioned any of this in the 3 times I was there discussing possible solutions. Each time I had my vehicle there as well.

Any thoughts guys?

One cheap and nasty way of tricking an alternator into thinking it needs to put out more voltage if it is a three wire (+ve, lamp, and sense) is to put a diode in the sense line (IN4004, 20-30 cents from "Tricky Dickies") with the white line on the diode towards the alternator. This fools the alternator into thinking the battery voltage (= alternator output voltage) is about 0.7 volts lower than what it actually is and boosts the output until is sees the "battery" at 13.8-14V, giving an actual voltage at the battery of 14.5-14.7. This difference in required charging voltage compared with a sloppy is an issue with all AGM's for some reason, Oddyssey (the one I have) prefer about 14.8V, so the diode solution is satisfactoryanswer.

[me3@neuralfibre.com]

I'm in the process of moving my 2n battery out of the engine bay as the battery sits too close to the turbo.

I have just bought the largest yellow top available from Optima (BTW the prices have just gone up on the Optima's).
There is enough reserve in these large units to run a fridge for nearly 4 days in the high country. The reason I went for Optima, is that they are fully sealed, can be placed in the vehicle and they re-charge very fast compared to the std. flooded plate type batteries.

Johnno.

I have installed my big optima but I am now having issues with being able to charge it.
Apparently they need about 14.1+ volts to charge them. My alternator (just 18 months old) is putting out about 13.8 volts wich is within spec of the manufacturer.
Getting another alternator may fix it, but they can't garentee what voltage output it will have.

Another choice may be the Merlin AMS Alternator Management System as seen here;
http://www.bainbridgetechnologies.com/i ... 69&site=v1
(4th product down)

Bit dirty that the suppliers of the battery hadn't mentioned any of this in the 3 times I was there discussing possible solutions. Each time I had my vehicle there as well.

Any thoughts guys?

One cheap and nasty way of tricking an alternator into thinking it needs to put out more voltage if it is a three wire (+ve, lamp, and sense) is to put a diode in the sense line (IN4004, 20-30 cents from "Tricky Dickies") with the white line on the diode towards the alternator. This fools the alternator into thinking the battery voltage (= alternator output voltage) is about 0.7 volts lower than what it actually is and boosts the output until is sees the "battery" at 13.8-14V, giving an actual voltage at the battery of 14.5-14.7. This difference in required charging voltage compared with a sloppy is an issue with all AGM's for some reason, Oddyssey (the one I have) prefer about 14.8V, so the diode solution is satisfactoryanswer.

Nice trick. Careful though.
If you are in the habit of driing 12hrs straight, have high under bonnet temps, or are planning a desert trip, your AGM, spiral wound or not, may become an unhappy chappy.

Those voltages are for the boost phase of charging, not float, and definately not at elevated temperatures.

Paul

[DamTriton]

I'm in the process of moving my 2n battery out of the engine bay as the battery sits too close to the turbo.

I have just bought the largest yellow top available from Optima (BTW the prices have just gone up on the Optima's).
There is enough reserve in these large units to run a fridge for nearly 4 days in the high country. The reason I went for Optima, is that they are fully sealed, can be placed in the vehicle and they re-charge very fast compared to the std. flooded plate type batteries.

Johnno.

I have installed my big optima but I am now having issues with being able to charge it.
Apparently they need about 14.1+ volts to charge them. My alternator (just 18 months old) is putting out about 13.8 volts wich is within spec of the manufacturer.
Getting another alternator may fix it, but they can't garentee what voltage output it will have.

Another choice may be the Merlin AMS Alternator Management System as seen here;
http://www.bainbridgetechnologies.com/i ... 69&site=v1
(4th product down)

Bit dirty that the suppliers of the battery hadn't mentioned any of this in the 3 times I was there discussing possible solutions. Each time I had my vehicle there as well.

Any thoughts guys?

One cheap and nasty way of tricking an alternator into thinking it needs to put out more voltage if it is a three wire (+ve, lamp, and sense) is to put a diode in the sense line (IN4004, 20-30 cents from "Tricky Dickies") with the white line on the diode towards the alternator. This fools the alternator into thinking the battery voltage (= alternator output voltage) is about 0.7 volts lower than what it actually is and boosts the output until is sees the "battery" at 13.8-14V, giving an actual voltage at the battery of 14.5-14.7. This difference in required charging voltage compared with a sloppy is an issue with all AGM's for some reason, Oddyssey (the one I have) prefer about 14.8V, so the diode solution is satisfactoryanswer.

Nice trick. Careful though.
If you are in the habit of driing 12hrs straight, have high under bonnet temps, or are planning a desert trip, your AGM, spiral wound or not, may become an unhappy chappy.

Those voltages are for the boost phase of charging, not float, and definately not at elevated temperatures.

Paul

I have a switch that switches out the diode

[GUJohnno]

Sounds interesting, I'll look into it.

The guys that sold the battery to me said they have found a suitable alternator for me.... for $500.00 change over!
Bugger that.

[PJ.zook]

I can vouch for the Orbital and Traxide combination for running a fridge, ive run both in my zook for a while now and combination works fantastic! I was running two fridges at basecamp for quite a while without starting and charging, worked great.