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BEE-JAY wrote:It's probably a good thing that I'm a diesel fitter then and not an english teacher.
yes it is. a teacher with a temper and patience levels similar to yours would prob have a very short career
one question tho. if the mount broke in this moment of huge load and torque wouldnt you think the chain being there to catch it would be better than the stress an engine bouncing around in an engine bay at will would do to every bit of the car?
1hd-fte 5 speed tiptronic 105 series
78 series troopy for work
gu ute play truck For sale
FTE 80 series sahara Sold
in answer to your original question i have had problems with aftermarket engine mounts. Genuine Toyota mounts are what you should use in preference to aftermarket mounts. If you still have failure issues you should use limiting chains (unless you are scared this will damage your engine)
I was quite amused to read about badgers bouncing engines, have you had much experience with bouncing engines? I can't say that I've ever encountered a bouncing engine. Does this bouncing you speak of cause much engine stress. I can recall many hours of study on engines and many courses but never a mention of a bouncing engine, may you should alert the greater engineering world about this danger before it is to late.
To all those who posted relevant responses to my question about the quality comparrison of engine mounts, thank you.
I haven't had a problem with my brand spankers genuine mount - now i just rip the stud out of the cast wedge that it's attached to. Haven't tried anything after market. I am, however, not a diesel mechanic - whether this is relevant or not I'm unsure.
i feel like just throwing it out there...if u set ur limit strap/ chain up so that it pulls tight just before the rubber and metal seperate, the "shockload" would be very minimal, so minimal that i dont think a cast iron anchor would relise..you would also save urself engine mounts, time in replacing them and if it breaks on a trail you wont have to strap it into place to drive home OR drive home with ur engine "bouncing" all over the place.
I think ppl have offered you some great advice, and because it isnt what you wanna hear you have a go at them. No point in ppl saying "yep my aftermarket mounts broke" n leaving it at that, they gave u solutions to a problem.
Im sure you would work something out anyway being the diesel fitter that you are, ever thought of modding a engine mount from a engine with 2x the touque of the 3b?
Rory you like myself are just a dumb electrician so even tho i totally argree with what you are saying we are wrong.
Also a motor doesnt bounce all over the place ................... i know this because a diesel fitter tried to make me look like an idiot for stating so on a forum once.
Sadly the fact that BEE-JAY is a tradesman doesnt nessecarily mean he has the ability to accept advise or gather information from the answers to his own questions. I however it could likely mean he is just another f@#kwit"expert" with a trade certificate and not one ounce of real life experiance or brains
Anyways im over it
just done expect people to give you advise on here when your are going to belittle them and tell them they are stupid when they are doing exactly what you asked for, offering there experiance and advise
1hd-fte 5 speed tiptronic 105 series
78 series troopy for work
gu ute play truck For sale
FTE 80 series sahara Sold
Badgers right. Just because I claim to be a tradesman doesn't mean anything, I could be anyone, Anyone on here could be anyone. Which is why I stress to everyone take anything your read here or on any other forum with a pinch of salt. Sadly unless you know someone on here that you really trust I would consider most of what is said as worse then usless. If you really want sound advice you are going to have to pay for it, But beware I have heard terible things said by "experts" because they want to sell someone a 3K turbo system or 2K worth of suspension.
One thing I will ask you to consider though is my position. Being a tradesman yourself what would be your reaction be if on an electrical forum you had amateurs dispensing advice that is potential dangerous to people and property. I would hope you would be furious(espeacilly if these people claim to be tradesmen). This is a weekend hobby for most of you blokes but it is what drives me and I love it, I have a passion for engineering and problem solving(and when the two overlap I deadset crack a wood).
There is a fine example of what I am talking about right here on this thread. Let me set the record straight now, Chains are a cheap, dodgey and deadset nasty way of solving this problem but I still had many people, some of whom claim to be tradesmen tell me to do this. It took an electrician (no insult intended) to point out the best answers to this problem, Custom fit a mount off a more powerful engine(well done rory you showed up quite a few "experts"). And just to inform you the shockload that I am refering to occurs after the chain is pulled tight, as I hopefully explained earlier your engine doesn't put out a smooth rotary flow of power, It is actually terribly violent, this is why we need dampening(eg rubber engine mounts and harmonic balancers). Without out dampening these shock load must be absorbed by, as you put it a lump of cast iron. Cast iron is not a good absorber (ever used a hammer with a piece of pipe for a handle, you won't do it twice).
Just to clarify and hopefully cool a few tempers, Yes it annoys me when you ask one question and get responses to another question entirely, It annoys me even more when when this advice is bad. If you take a position be prepared to defend it with technical backup not just words to the effect of everyone does it so it must be right.
BEE-JAY wrote:Badgers right. Just because I claim to be a tradesman doesn't mean anything, I could be anyone, Anyone on here could be anyone. Which is why I stress to everyone take anything your read here or on any other forum with a pinch of salt. Sadly unless you know someone on here that you really trust I would consider most of what is said as worse then usless. If you really want sound advice you are going to have to pay for it, But beware I have heard terible things said by "experts" because they want to sell someone a 3K turbo system or 2K worth of suspension.
One thing I will ask you to consider though is my position. Being a tradesman yourself what would be your reaction be if on an electrical forum you had amateurs dispensing advice that is potential dangerous to people and property. I would hope you would be furious(espeacilly if these people claim to be tradesmen). This is a weekend hobby for most of you blokes but it is what drives me and I love it, I have a passion for engineering and problem solving(and when the two overlap I deadset crack a wood).
There is a fine example of what I am talking about right here on this thread. Let me set the record straight now, Chains are a cheap, dodgey and deadset nasty way of solving this problem but I still had many people, some of whom claim to be tradesmen tell me to do this. It took an electrician (no insult intended) to point out the best answers to this problem, Custom fit a mount off a more powerful engine(well done rory you showed up quite a few "experts"). And just to inform you the shockload that I am refering to occurs after the chain is pulled tight, as I hopefully explained earlier your engine doesn't put out a smooth rotary flow of power, It is actually terribly violent, this is why we need dampening(eg rubber engine mounts and harmonic balancers). Without out dampening these shock load must be absorbed by, as you put it a lump of cast iron. Cast iron is not a good absorber (ever used a hammer with a piece of pipe for a handle, you won't do it twice).
Just to clarify and hopefully cool a few tempers, Yes it annoys me when you ask one question and get responses to another question entirely, It annoys me even more when when this advice is bad. If you take a position be prepared to defend it with technical backup not just words to the effect of everyone does it so it must be right.
[engineering hat on]
you will find that 'generally' the mounts are placed tangentially on an arc in relation to the crank centerline, this is to reduced the rotational stresses and transmit torque torsionally into the chassis. Mounts generally only fail (when in good condition) when a reactive or induced force is applied 'vertically' (or a component of) , this leads to a 'tearing' of the mount. This can easily be solved by the addition of a 'slider' which allows movement of the 2 mount surfaces only within practical limits of the vulcanising, IE: +/-10mm along the planar axis and +/-5mm along the vertical axis.
OK i am not a diesel fitter, but i had a bit to do with the design of 500mm square vibrational pads used for the main beam mounts of buildings in earthquake zones.
But then again I would just put an ENGINE plate on it and NEVER have it fail!!!
Okay were are we getting the vertical movement from? As I see it the problem is this, As you said the torque reaction tries to turn the block, now the mounts are aligned so this force acts squarely on the mounts, but when the mount on the compression side will compress no further it then becomes the center point for a new rotationaly arc, and the opposing mount tries to follow a new much larger arc. The force is no longer square through the mount and it "peels" the steel plate from the rubber mount. A bit like trying to pull a magnet off a steel bench, If you just try and pull it straight up you'll give yourself a hernia but if you lift one side it comes straight off.
You might have to clarify this engine plate you speak of. In my experience an engine plate is a method of solid mounting an engine. The only other thing that comes to mind is a crank brace, which sounds a little more sane but a lot less possible.
beejay im beginning to think you don't take your car off road...
When offroad your car bounces and bucks off the ground, thus causing the engine (wich is not solid mounted as you have said so many times now) to try and move separately than the car itself.
This stresses the mounts in a way that was not intended by the manufacturer so they break.
You have only 2 options whether you like it or not.
1. Manufacture new mounts that are compatible with larger rubber mounts and more shock loading.
2. Limit the extent of the shock loading with straps or chain. Set these up so they become taught before the rubber has reached its breaking point.
You may dislike the latter as you have this idea that any additional shock loading on the engine is going to drastically reduce its service life... OK i agree with you yes it will reduce its service life... using the vehicle off road does this, so does running over on a service or using inferior fuel...
What im saying is that in the grand scheme of things, its not going to make any noticeable difference in engine life.
This pooooofteenth of an increase is well worth the effort as having an engine part company with the chassis and breaking/stressing break lines, fuel lines, master cylinders, alternators, a/c pumps, intake manifolds, inter coolers, exhaust couplings bla bla bla.
All of these things i have said above i have seen break when an engine comes adrift in an engine bay.
Oh OK, so it is the bouncing experienced while driving offroad is it? how could I have been so silly. The only problem with your little theory is this, At the moment all 3 sets of mounts broken the car was just about stationary. The first two released while climbing rocks in low range and the thrid set (which where only a few weeks old and had never been offroad) failed while the car was sitting in the driveway. So much for that theory hey. Better luck next time. Chin up but.
Now if it is breaking new mounts while being load tested in the driveway we have a real problem, either with the quality of the mount (which is what I expect and is the reason I started this thread) or there is something else going on. A vehicle with a standard power output shouldn't break mounts this easily it is as simple as that.
Z()ltan if your are going to continue to post in a vain attempt to make me look silly I recommend you do your research ie. read the full thread. If you don't have anything to say that makes any sense please stop wasting my time. I really didn't want to waste all this time trying to find out if anybody else has had problems with the quality of aftermarket mounts.
Z()LTAN wrote:beejay im beginning to think you don't take your car off road...
When offroad your car bounces and bucks off the ground, thus causing the engine (wich is not solid mounted as you have said so many times now) to try and move separately than the car itself.
This stresses the mounts in a way that was not intended by the manufacturer so they break.
You have only 2 options whether you like it or not.
1. Manufacture new mounts that are compatible with larger rubber mounts and more shock loading.
2. Limit the extent of the shock loading with straps or chain. Set these up so they become taught before the rubber has reached its breaking point.
You may dislike the latter as you have this idea that any additional shock loading on the engine is going to drastically reduce its service life... OK i agree with you yes it will reduce its service life... using the vehicle off road does this, so does running over on a service or using inferior fuel...
What im saying is that in the grand scheme of things, its not going to make any noticeable difference in engine life.
This pooooofteenth of an increase is well worth the effort as having an engine part company with the chassis and breaking/stressing break lines, fuel lines, master cylinders, alternators, a/c pumps, intake manifolds, inter coolers, exhaust couplings bla bla bla.
All of these things i have said above i have seen break when an engine comes adrift in an engine bay.
I don't believe basic 'bouncing and bucking off the ground[sic]' is the cause of engine mount failure. In these situations, if anything, it would be the jolting effect of the drive line (torque-shock? i'm sure 1MadEngineer has a good name for it!) as wheels scrabble (losing and regaining traction momentarily). All of my failures have involved no bouncing, but plenty or scrabbling on high traction surfaces or very heavy snatching. Mine have also been on the 'down side' of the engine, suggesting they're copping a lot of stress when the wheels release traction suddenly?
Running chains or straps to limit mount movement isn't going to end the world...or your engine.
If/when the mount breaks and the tension is taken up on the chain you should hear/feel it happen. You should then Stop/look/listen and relise what wrong and change your driving style accordingly so you can get home. Even my 3y/o knows than when you hear funny noises you find out what it is......and then ignore it
If the chain gets you home at the end of the day, then does it matter if you shorten the engine life any. After all how many 4by's die of natural causes anyway.
And on the off chance that pluto lines up with uranus, apparently your a diesel fitter, so rebuilding wont be too much hassel
Just been reading through the thread
Ive had constant problems with broken engine mounts
Torque from my 308 tears them appart
Each time i tow the car trailer it will kill an engine mount
Ive tried nolathane an snapped them the next day after they where fitted
2nd hand original mounts lasted longer than after market
Genuine lasted the longest
I have been looking at fitting a small shock similiar to what they use on some front wheel drive engine mounts to see if this will dampen things a bit
If this doesnt work was considering making buggy style mounts using a pair of shackle bushes
Bee-jay are your transmission mounts in one piece? Are the harmonic balancers in good condition on the engine?
To me limiting straps would be a better option to limiting chains since they allow a bit of damping. That being said a lot of rock crawlers in the US use chains on their 22r engine mounts to stop them ripping when they're rock crawling at very low speeds. I think the mounts fail without them due to the massive torque loads placed on the transmission and engine mounts due to the massive reduction ratios they use in addition to the bouncing that sometimes happens when traction hopping over rocks.
Had this problem in the rally car, broke 4 mounts in a row. Then I realised the factory mounts had a loop above them. Into this loop went a metal tongue that was missing from this car. When the rubber reached it's limt, the tongue would limit movement (similar priciple to chains, without the rattling). Grabbed the tongues off the spare car, installed, never did another mount.
Lesson - check for factory limiters, and if they are missing, install them.
For those that want to bag it, the massive torque race motor was a near stock Gemini 1600. That's rallying for you.
Had this problem in the rally car, broke 4 mounts in a row. Then I realised the factory mounts had a loop above them. Into this loop went a metal tongue that was missing from this car. When the rubber reached it's limt, the tongue would limit movement (similar priciple to chains, without the rattling). Grabbed the tongues off the spare car, installed, never did another mount.
Lesson - check for factory limiters, and if they are missing, install them.
For those that want to bag it, the massive torque race motor was a near stock Gemini 1600. That's rallying for you.
Paul
Exactly, heaps of standard mounts have solid limiters built into them. Which is no different to adding chains or straps in custom vehicles, provided the limiter allows enough 'normal' movement
Has a lot to do with mounting positions too, though on a factory set up it should be perfect to begin with. My 1UZ (just a wee bit more power than a 3B) is set up so it uses OEM V6 Toyota mounts that sit horizontally, I have yet to brake a mount after about 4 years and 2 different host vehicles, including a vehicle roll. Twisty's 4Runner however has the mounts sitting at a 45 deg angle so they match the angle of the engine and he has replaced quiet a few sets. Same engine, same vehicle, different mount positions....
Overall, I have heard heaps of times that genuine Yota mounts are much much stronger than aftermarket. Worth the money.
BEE-JAY,
mate i too have a middy... infact i have had 2 now, with your problem..... both with 3B and 3B aftermarket turbo..... used to always blow out the LHS mount 1st then the RHS mount would go.....
normally due to hard wheeling and loading / torqueing up the motor.... stick with genuine as they have lasted the longest on my middy by far.... any more issues go into Stewarts 4wd and ask for "Rod".... Rod and i have sorted out a few ongoin issues regarding middy's.....
good luck with M.C Toyota make sure to ask to see the scimatic diagram to make sure its the right engine mount.... as they have ordered the wrong thing on a number of occasions
:armsup: The Offical Founder of ARMS UP
Jimmy James Beam the III from babinda and mt isa and other places u don't wanna know about :armsup:
www.blackriver4wd.com
MUSS wrote:BEE-JAY,
mate i too have a middy... infact i have had 2 now, with your problem..... both with 3B and 3B aftermarket turbo..... used to always blow out the LHS mount 1st then the RHS mount would go.....
normally due to hard wheeling and loading / torqueing up the motor.... stick with genuine as they have lasted the longest on my middy by far.... any more issues go into Stewarts 4wd and ask for "Rod".... Rod and i have sorted out a few ongoin issues regarding middy's.....
good luck with M.C Toyota make sure to ask to see the scimatic diagram to make sure its the right engine mount.... as they have ordered the wrong thing on a number of occasions
damn.. i wish i had of found this thread before a bought my non-genuine.. might quizz the wreckers for a 2nd hand genuine on the weekend..
