Introduction; advice on 2nd hand Pajero

[Rockwolf]

G'day, guys. New user here, thought I should introduce myself. Love the forum you've got here, it's rare to find a forum that's not inhabited by total idiots, and is frequented by people who actually know what they're talking about.

I'm looking at getting a fourby to replace the VN Commodore I've got at the moment (I love working on cars, but every weekend this year is getting a little old...) - and the missus and her family are Mitsu and Jeep owners from way back. Fortunately, I don't feel like driving a 'cruiser or Patrol around Brisvegas, so I'm happy with the idea of a Pajero, Challenger or Triton, or (please don't kill me!) a Cherokee, though I like the idea of the Pajero the most.

I've had a crack at the Tech Bible and the Tech Info database, as well as reading most relevant threads back to about September last year. I've seen the aftermarket support for the Paj is pretty decent, but what about the triton and challenger? What's their ability like off-road? How is parts price and availability?

We've settled on a LWB (much as I love the idea of a J-top), budget around 10-14K. Does anyone have any recommendations for what I should/shouldn't get or look for, bearing in mind that this isn't going to be a comp rig, more like a highway cruiser with a decent ability off-road.

We've had a look around at a few NJ-NL Paj's (manual and V6, we also like that shape), and found a few around the high 100K km- low 200K km. Which brings me to the questions:

Is there an upper limit to the number of km's a Pajero will be reliable for? How do the 3L V6's stack up against the 3.5? Also, as much as I don't like automatics, are they worth considering?

Sorry for the thousand questions, my apologies, and thanks in advance.

Lindsay.

[j-top paj]

it's rare to find a forum that's not inhabited by total idiots,

guess you havnt looked in gen chit chat yet


have you considered diesel at all?

[psycronic]

considering I just paid 30c/l more for diesel over petrol yesterday I don't think it is really that important.

I would be looking at either a 3.5 V6 or a 2.8 TDI, forget the 3.0V6 (unless you are getting something imaculate, or want it cheap) and the 2.5 TDI is a little slow (but I don't mind mine)

Diesels can handle the extra kays, but still go for the lowest you can find for your price range

[Rockwolf]

guess you havnt looked in gen chit chat yet

I don't have unlimited spare time, mate.

considering I just paid 30c/l more for diesel over petrol yesterday I don't think it is really that important.

I would be looking at either a 3.5 V6 or a 2.8 TDI, forget the 3.0V6 (unless you are getting something imaculate, or want it cheap) and the 2.5 TDI is a little slow (but I don't mind mine)

Diesels can handle the extra kays, but still go for the lowest you can find for your price range

What's the difference in fuel economy like with the 2.8 vs. 3.5? If there's a large difference maybe it would be worth springing for the diesel, but they seem to be a lot rarer. Gotta get off my tail and drive a few, that might sort it out. What's the 3.5 like off-road? I was in Fiji late last year, had a brand-new Hilux with the 2.4TD... Wouldn't idle over a speedbump in low range - absolutely useless off-road just because of the lack of torque.

I'll see what I can find to have a drive of locally, should be interesting. Thanks, mate.

[psycronic]

I see quite a few 2.8s getting around (people just don't want to sell them)

The diesel will have better economy than the 3.5, but not sure if that always outweighs the extra price of diesel over petrol.

I would probably gone for a 3.5 instead of the 2.5TD if I had my chance again (2.8s where out of my price range)

[-Scott-]

If you're planning on remote area touring then I believe the diesel wins, purely for range - you'll be able to drive farther between fills, and diesel is generally more widely available.

In that price range an 2.8td NL should be possible - you'll just need to wait a little longer to find the right one. If you're going petrol don't bother with the 3.0 - there's no comparison with the 3.5.

Automatics are worth considering, depending on what you intend to use it for. They're only available behind the V6 (in that vintage of Pajero), as a 4 speed.

For slow speed crawling in rough country they win hands down - awesome control.
On the beach they're pretty good, because you don't need to worry about which gear you're in. Temp can be an issue if you work them hard, but I don't know what Pajeros are like in that respect.
Hill climbs, again let the trans do the gear selection, and you can concentrate on picking your line and regulating your speed.
Hill descents is the traditional auto off-roading weak spot, and there are techniques to overcome the problem - so don't let that put you off.

On bitumen, automatics use more fuel than a manual, but they're typically nicer to drive in stop-start traffic. What's the priority?

[Raurrie]

I have a 3.0L Pajero on LPG and I would have preferred a 3.5L. The 3.5L is better on economy than the 3.0L with added benefit of more power. Had to reco the gearbox after 240K (cost $660 - took a bit of shopping) but the motor is still fine. I recommend getting LPG put on as the expense of using the vehicle as an daily driver becomes quite high if just running on petrol - and the price of fuel is just going to keep going up. I paid $3400 for a conversion but the gov rebated me 2K. If going LPG Make sure you get a motor that only has a single overhead cam (late 96 onwards) as the DOHC motors are not LPG compliant.

Have used the car for 4wding on Fraser Island and only got bogged twice. Thought the car went quite good and doubt I'd get bogged again in the same places again with a bit of experience under my belt.

Hope this helps a little.

[Rockwolf]

The diesel will have better economy than the 3.5, but not sure if that always outweighs the extra price of diesel over petrol.

I kinda figure that that running costs would come out roughly even, and preference on power delivery and reliability would sort that one out. I've driven a few TD's in my time (all Dad's, figured it was time to buy my own rig this time around ), some have been total slugs (Mid-90's 2.8 Rodeo), or not too bad ('01 Navara 3.0 STR). Thanks for the advice re:2.5TD and 3L, will steer away from those.

-snip-

Some remote area touring is the idea, also some moderate off-road, and daily hack duties around town. Going to be great fun going shopping in a lifted muddy pajero.

I'm sure you're right with the price, has private sale been the way to go in the past? The dealers seem to want to ask up to $18k sticker for an NL manual.

As far as autos go... I love switching gears myself, though I hear you as far as low-speed control goes. I come from the... Lower side of the road (110mm clearance in the current ride, 103 before that), and I had to spend over two grand to get the auto shifting the way I was happy. Maybe I'm just fussy. Stop-start never bugged me in a manual, so I think fuel economy, and the flexibility of the manual is important. It also seems a little safer in that autos seem to have a nasty habit of shifting up on you right at the worst possible moment.

All that said, the auto is worth considering, from what you've said.

-snip-

Did you lose any power in the LPG conversion? I've heard of a lot of cars that have turned into a pig just because of the LPG.

How many km's has your engine got now? Just don't feel like rebuilding one, seems to be a pretty expensive exercise. If I wanted to rebuild an engine, I'd keep my commodore for longer.

[Sammyboy]

If you think that the diesels are a bit sluggy, you can possibly upgrade the fuel pump and turbo boost, as well as exhaust. My little 2.5 TD puts out 60kw at all four wheels, and 591nm (printed on dyno test). That's more torque than a 500hp chev or ford V8! I put a 2.5" exhaust on, upgraded the fuel pump and now run 14psi at the turbo. Believe it or not, these upgrades get me 50km per tank further. I haven't done a major trip yet but reckon that my car sits on about 9 l/100km on the open road.

[Rockwolf]

Interesting - thanks for the info, mate.

[date]

I have just read the talk about buying a Pajero and diesel or petrol. I have a 2000 resitered (built Oct 1999) NL - the last of the NL series. I had it fitted with LPG immediately, and have done about 187000 km since then, at least 110000 of that with my caravan (16 ft Jayco poptop) behind it. So far, nothing major has gone wrong with it. I change the oil every 5000 to 7500 km (shorter time if it has had short runs, longer for a long trip).

I keep a log of everyting I spend on the car and I get 22L/100 km with the caravan on gas, about 20 on petrol. Without the van and at legal limits, I get 16.5 L/100 km , and have had as low as 14 L/100 with good gas on a flat trip between Cooma and Brisbane. Occasionally, you get a bad batch of gas and it seems to chew through it heavily. Depending on where you fill with fuel, it is far cheaper than running a diesel. I work on the principle that if LPG is cheaper than 60% of the price of diesel, I am in front fuel wise. In addition, you have extra oil changes etc with the diesel.

Having said all that, you have a far better range when you really go bush if you run a diesel - you can't get gas everywhere and it can be pricey when you do. Also, if you use low range in rough stuff, diesel is far better. On my last trip arond the block, I used 2 tankfuls of petrol only in 18000 km. It was only in the Kimberleys that I used petrol, also a bit across the nullabor because of the outrageous LPG prices there.

I cannot really notice any power difference between petrol or gas. Mine is a manual transmission. My biggest gripe is the lack of range - I can get about 400km without the van, and about 300 with it. I would love to get a bigger tank, but it sticks down far enough as it is, so I'll leave it alone.

For what it is worth, that is my story. Would I change the car? Yes - if I could justify it and I would buy a diesel Prado (nearly 190 L fuel on board) and power unlimited. Right now, I have enough power and I really cannot justify getting rid of it because (shoosh!) it goes like a swiss watch.

Hope this is of some value to you.

[-Scott-]

For what it is worth, that is my story.

Thank you. I found it interesting.

Would I change the car? Yes - if I could justify it and I would buy a diesel Prado (nearly 190 L fuel on board) and power unlimited.

At the risk of incurring wrath, I wouldn't argue with that. They're a nice vehicle; the only downside is having to pay for the Toyota badges - makes the vehicle too expensive.

I realise this isn't something you're likely to do, but:

Does your LPG tank sit as high as possible? How much could you increase LPG capacity if you performed a 2" body lift? The NL already sits (approx. 30mm) higher on the chassis than earlier models, if the tank was designed to fit the earlier model there may be space above it. Add another 50mm, is there a suitable tank to take advantage of the space?

[date]

I have had the tank out and moved it forward as far as it can go (to give some clearance on exiting a gully). It sits as high as it can - there is some clearance between the body and the tank, but not much. I'll see if I can lift it - that is a good idea. It is just clamped to the chassis rails.

[j-top paj]

I keep a log of everyting I spend on the car and I get 22L/100 km with the caravan on gas, about 20 on petrol. Without the van and at legal limits, I get 16.5 L/100 km , and have had as low as 14 L/100 with good gas on a flat trip between Cooma and Brisbane.

20 isnt too bad towing a van. im guessing it weighs about a ton or a little more?
those 2 big hills on the monaro hwy would make up a fair bit of that but.



ps... next time im down at my property (off dry plains rd) you have to show me some local tracks

[4ePajero]

My little 2.5 TD puts out 60kw at all four wheels, and 591nm (printed on dyno test). That's more torque than a 500hp chev or ford V8! I put a 2.5" exhaust on, upgraded the fuel pump and now run 14psi at the turbo. Believe it or not, these upgrades get me 50km per tank further. I haven't done a major trip yet but reckon that my car sits on about 9 l/100km on the open road.

591 Nm?

I think you are miss-interpreting the print-out.

Even my 3.2 DiD does not get even close to that!

[j-top paj]

possibly 291nm

[-Scott-]

My little 2.5 TD puts out 60kw at all four wheels, and 591nm (printed on dyno test). That's more torque than a 500hp chev or ford V8! I put a 2.5" exhaust on, upgraded the fuel pump and now run 14psi at the turbo. Believe it or not, these upgrades get me 50km per tank further. I haven't done a major trip yet but reckon that my car sits on about 9 l/100km on the open road.

591 Nm?

I think you are miss-interpreting the print-out.

Even my 3.2 DiD does not get even close to that!

That would be 591Nm at the wheels, not the flywheel. It's affected by the gearing. Low range first, you'd have thousands of Nm. Not lots of power, but heaps of torque.

[4ePajero]

My little 2.5 TD puts out 60kw at all four wheels, and 591nm (printed on dyno test). That's more torque than a 500hp chev or ford V8! I put a 2.5" exhaust on, upgraded the fuel pump and now run 14psi at the turbo. Believe it or not, these upgrades get me 50km per tank further. I haven't done a major trip yet but reckon that my car sits on about 9 l/100km on the open road.

591 Nm?

I think you are miss-interpreting the print-out.

Even my 3.2 DiD does not get even close to that!

That would be 591Nm at the wheels, not the flywheel. It's affected by the gearing. Low range first, you'd have thousands of Nm. Not lots of power, but heaps of torque.

Agreed.
To claim that it proces more torque than a 500hp Chev/Ford though, that's real brand loyalty!

[Rockwolf]

I have just read the talk about buying a Pajero and diesel or petrol. I have a 2000 resitered (built Oct 1999) NL - the last of the NL series. I had it fitted with LPG immediately, and have done about 187000 km since then, at least 110000 of that with my caravan (16 ft Jayco poptop) behind it. So far, nothing major has gone wrong with it. I change the oil every 5000 to 7500 km (shorter time if it has had short runs, longer for a long trip).

I keep a log of everyting I spend on the car and I get 22L/100 km with the caravan on gas, about 20 on petrol. Without the van and at legal limits, I get 16.5 L/100 km , and have had as low as 14 L/100 with good gas on a flat trip between Cooma and Brisbane. Occasionally, you get a bad batch of gas and it seems to chew through it heavily. Depending on where you fill with fuel, it is far cheaper than running a diesel. I work on the principle that if LPG is cheaper than 60% of the price of diesel, I am in front fuel wise. In addition, you have extra oil changes etc with the diesel.

Having said all that, you have a far better range when you really go bush if you run a diesel - you can't get gas everywhere and it can be pricey when you do. Also, if you use low range in rough stuff, diesel is far better. On my last trip arond the block, I used 2 tankfuls of petrol only in 18000 km. It was only in the Kimberleys that I used petrol, also a bit across the nullabor because of the outrageous LPG prices there.

I cannot really notice any power difference between petrol or gas. Mine is a manual transmission. My biggest gripe is the lack of range - I can get about 400km without the van, and about 300 with it. I would love to get a bigger tank, but it sticks down far enough as it is, so I'll leave it alone.

For what it is worth, that is my story. Would I change the car? Yes - if I could justify it and I would buy a diesel Prado (nearly 190 L fuel on board) and power unlimited. Right now, I have enough power and I really cannot justify getting rid of it because (shoosh!) it goes like a swiss watch.

Hope this is of some value to you.

Thanks for that, mate. Very very interesting - we're aiming to get exactly what you've got, if we can find one in the right price range. Those petrol fuel economy figures you quoted - do you have a rough idea of what you get around town, and unloaded on the highway? How do the numbers compare to other fourbies you've seen and heard about on your trips?

Is yours stock, or modified? How does it handle towing up hills, etc?

I'm sure I've got more questions, thanks in advance.
Lindsay.

[date]

The fuel consumption figures I quoted are mainly for country runs. I rarely do short or city runs and when I do it is in my wife's Magna (also on gas). The consumptions are for gas only. I have done probably only 3000 km on petrol. I know- you should run petrol lots more, but I did the same with a range rover and an old (TM) magna, and suffered no problems.

My caravan weighs 1200 kg empty, and the pulling power is quite good. I generally don't travel more than 90 to 100k's with the van on, because I am usually not in a rush. It can and has done 130 k's at times, but I would rather not do that.

My car is stock standard, only has a poly bar on the front.

The fuel consumptions I get are generally better than most people. I have a light foot, and for example, when I am cresting a hill, I will back off near the top and let the momentum carry it over. Similarly, if I see red lights ahead, I slow down so that if possible, I don't have to stop and the lights are green when I get there.

My petrol capacity is about 50 Litres. The gas is nearly 70 L useable. My first real outback trip with this car, I took a jerry can (Just in case!). I modified the electrics so that the petrol pump doesn't run when I am on gas. This allows me to fill with gas and leave a full bottle when I am in areas where there is no gas. I then run on petrol and can run to empty and switch to gas (my reserve) when I am back in a gas area. That way, the pump won't be damaged by running dry. I get about 16.5 L/100 km towing the van on petrol, and for low speed (40 km/h) trip from NappaMerrie to Tiboorburra (no help out there if you crash etc), I got abouut 12 L/100 km on petrol.

The gas fitter had stuffed up in mounting the pump and although there was 45 L in the tank, I could only use 24 L before the pump ran dry. Out there, you need more than 24 L useable fuel - the Jerry can was used a few times on that trip. That problem was fixed and the tank enlarged slightly, and I now have about 50 L useable.

I could go on for hours, but if you want to email me direct, my email is date@spin.net.au.

[Rockwolf]

Thanks for the email offer, mate. I might take you up on it when I'm looking at a particular car to pick up.

How's the rig for long-distance cruising? What's it like when you hop out after a thousand km's?

Last question, mate - how does it compare to other rigs you've had, and would you recommend one?

Cheers.
Lindsay.

[date]

I find the car very comfortable to drive. My main experience was with my Range Rover and of late with my friend's Landcruiser 80 series. As far as I am concerned, the pajero is much easier to drive than either of those. The Rangie was wonderful offroad (clearance, soft ride etc) but noisy and it tended to wander a bit and you knew you had done 800 k' s when you finally stopped. The L/C is gutless (it is on gas but even on petrol it still doesn't match the Pajero) and BIG, especially in Sydney towing an even BIGGER trailer. I might add that the Pajero was thumped heavily up the rearin Melbourne. Both the front seats collapsed, my wife and I got whiplash, but virtually no damage to the Pajero other than the seats. They claimed that they could not get any new seats, and the replacement seat frames alone would have cost $1800 each!!! That is what they said! I found a new pair of Recaro seats and the insurance company fitted them and saved about $400 on the deal as well. Having said that, we were perfectly satisfied with the original seats, but the Recaros are very good. We regularly do trips Cooma to Brisbane and sleep quite well at the end of the day. Having said that, my wife's 1998 Magna is far easier to drive, but the Pajero kills the Rangie and the L/C for comfort.

One thing to watch for with a Petrol Pajero is the timing belt. It has to be changed every 100000 km, else it may break and then you have valves thru pistons. Not nice. It is a Wonderful job - I like it very much!!! I did both the Magna and the Pajero at the same time (both came up to 100000 km), and now they are both coming up again. This time round, I know what to do, but it is still not a nice job. If you get it done, allow 5 to 6 hrs for a mechanic at whatever they charge.

Spark plugs are another joy. You can't even see the damned things, yet alone get to them. By the time you get down to them, you should really change the plug leads as well. Go see the bank manager for both - they are expensive. But if you run on gas, a backfire can (and did in my case) blow the air cleaner apart. There are 3 pieces of honeycomb aluminium in the air box. I lost the 2 smaller pieces and had to seriously panelbeat the centre bit. The honeycomb is there for the airflow sensor (for petrol but not used for my gas system). I replaced the plug leads with a set of Top Gun. Absolute crap. They lasted about 5000 km before it backfired and blew the aircleaner apart. I was towing my van up a steep hill at the time. I then bought a set of Bosch leads and so far (about 40000 km) so good.

My Pajero leaks oil from the rocker cover or somewhere up there. When I get around to do the timing belt and the plugs, I'll take the rocker cover off and try to fix that too.

Steering is good. I got 53000 km from the original Yokohama tyres. I put a set of Michelin M+S on, and got 128000 km from them. I would have gotten 140 or 150 from them, only for a slight misalignment scrubbing the inner edge. It is a lousy job and the guy in Cooma had several goes at it before he got it right. He did a really good job when it finally came right. I now have another set of Michelins on and hope they are as good.

I had a problem with the front brake pads. One of the calipers had its pivot pin seize and it wore out one pad. The others were less that half worn. A new set of pads and a bit of grease and hopefully it is OK. I had one ball joint fail - don't know why. It was replaced but it was a non-greaseable type and after splashing thru creeks in Kakadu and hte Kimberley, it started to creak and groan terribly. They replaced it again (still no greaseable type) and occasionally it creaks and gorans, but I groan more than it so I guess it can't be too bad.

Would I buy another Mitsubishi? Probably. As I said, I like the Prado diesel, but I have a soft spot for the 3 diamond brand, and have had really good service from them over the years. Our first Magna (a TM) did 345000 km and was still going well at 380000 when I last saw it. The two I have now have done nearly 200000 each (in 8 years) and have proved to be reliable and relatively cheap to run. Yes - I would buy another Mitsubishi.
If MMA would care to send me a new car for this plug, I'll gladly accept it.

Hope this is of some value to you.

[Rockwolf]

The gf's mother has a Magna ('92 model) that's done 570k km's, one rebuild of engine and auto at 350,000. Still runs well, bar the usual Astron rattles. As I've said, there's also been two tritons in the family, both done well over 340,000 km's and running well. (Did I mention that they're mitsi-mad? )

Timing belts... Yeah, those can be fun. Did the Vectra's with a mate... Can anyone here tell me why you need to undo the drivers' side engine mount to replace the serpentine belt? The timing belt is even more difficult.

Good to hear that it's reliable, that's the main reason I'm replacing my commodore. I enjoy spending time on cars, just not every weekend to keep it on the road, you know? It's also good to know that they tend to be good on tyres, and comfortable to drive.

It's been really useful, thanks mate.

[NJV6]

...snip...

Very interesting read.

[-Scott-]

...snip...

Very interesting read.

I agree. If rockwolf has any more questions I won't complain if he posts them here rather than email - people don't have to read it if they don't want to, and date's replies are very informative. It's nice to see somebody write longer posts than mine.

date, re your rocker cover oil leak. My 3.0 started that about 2 years ago (oil dripping onto the exhaust manifold), turned out to be the rocker cover gasket. It was baked solid above the exhaust manifold, and simply not sealing. I replaced both at once, which was enough of a job for me - the thought of a timing belt change leaves me cold.

[NJV6]

I should add that my rockers were leaking as well. Well they were leaking very slowly then overnight it turned into a hemmorage - oil everywhere.

[88 Feroza]

A pitty you aren't looking for a SWB. I will have mine up for sale soon. 94 NJ, V6 3.0L, New 2" lifted suspension, Cooper Mud Terrain Tyres, Tow Bar, Bull Bar, Spotlights, Tinted Windows, Super Select Gearbox, AC, CD, etc. Oil leaks and Timeing belt replaced and fixed 11/07, Radiator rebuilt 06/07.

Great car, excellent power to weight ratio.

Upgrading to 2000-2003 model.

Good luck
Daniel