ive been playing around with different spring packs in the project Lonnie(LWB w canopy) and have noticed that with full ruf, no chassis extention and running 2 inch extended shackles that the tyre isnt heavy enough to make full use of the near 45 degree shackle, and lacks heaps in the droop department, when hoisted with endless chain i only was able to get 440mm under front wheel(this is without front shocks in)
so my dilema is, with the NT chassis, the rear spring mount is more U shaped then the WT couterpart, hence redrilling isnt an option. I think im going to have to either cut and remount this rear spring mount or do a chassis ext, which im not to keen on as i have vit ps going on and dont want steering arms to hit which ive heard can be a problem.
Has anyone had similar probs, especially people that run ruf on NT. Gwagensteve, i know you have ruf, do you have chassis ext?
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RUF and NT questions.
RUF and NT questions.
85 LWB w. FRP Canopy
Ca18det conversion in progress, Vit PS, RUF,
6.5:1's, 33x12.5 Bfg's, custom front and rear bars.
Ca18det conversion in progress, Vit PS, RUF,
6.5:1's, 33x12.5 Bfg's, custom front and rear bars.
Chassis extention with a NT is a lot easier the a WT, that would be my suggestion and you can always redrill the diff locator plates to move it back into a more factory position that should avoid the steering arm issue. Be easier then moving the rear mount and if you can get a work around for the steering you are extending your WB more, always an advantage.
;)
I will have a look though my pics.
Basically i neatly cut the rear mount off and moved it back 1.5-2".
the chassis is maybe gone by now but will have a look.
Basically i neatly cut the rear mount off and moved it back 1.5-2".
the chassis is maybe gone by now but will have a look.
[url=http://www.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic.php?p=930942#930942&highlight=]Zook[/url]
U SUK Zook Built and Sold.
New rig is 97 80 DX. 2" list 33s
U SUK Zook Built and Sold.
New rig is 97 80 DX. 2" list 33s
Aaargh just lost my reponse to this twice (not at my normal computer.. PC's suck 
)
OK, this will be shorter than my last 2 reposonses
A) I don't think an NT spring hanger can be redrilled.
B) steering is fine so long as you have around 1.5" of bumpstop spacer, otherwise the pitman arm and drag link will contact.
C)NT is easy to do an extension on, WT is much messier
D) every car I've ruf'ed (about 6) has picked up 4" of droop
E) you NEED an extension. shackle angles will be out of control without one.
F) inboard your bumpstops and pull the spring clips off, you'll get massive droop on articulation.
G) The nice way is to pull the steering box forward with the extension. It's not super trick fabrication and engineers have no problem with it (certainly in Vic)
Here's some pics:
WT with NT spring spacing, 50mm extension, Vitara PS box
front travel with pretty stock offset 7"rims
Inboarded bumpstop
Hope this helps a bit.
Steve
)OK, this will be shorter than my last 2 reposonses
A) I don't think an NT spring hanger can be redrilled.
B) steering is fine so long as you have around 1.5" of bumpstop spacer, otherwise the pitman arm and drag link will contact.
C)NT is easy to do an extension on, WT is much messier
D) every car I've ruf'ed (about 6) has picked up 4" of droop
E) you NEED an extension. shackle angles will be out of control without one.
F) inboard your bumpstops and pull the spring clips off, you'll get massive droop on articulation.
G) The nice way is to pull the steering box forward with the extension. It's not super trick fabrication and engineers have no problem with it (certainly in Vic)
Here's some pics:
WT with NT spring spacing, 50mm extension, Vitara PS box
front travel with pretty stock offset 7"rims
Inboarded bumpstop
Hope this helps a bit.
Steve
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
steve,
how does imboarding the bumpstop improve droop?
As I understand it all it will do is bring the pivot (stop) point on the diff further in, causing the tyre to be stuffed further into the guard with the same uptravel...? Is this part of the reason theres more drop on the opposite side?
Also, is there not a point where the wheel/diff/axle will just not drop any further from binding up due to the arc they travel in?
IE as the spring is fixed at both can it be limited by only twisting as much as the rear bushed mount, two bushed shackle mounts & the "spring" in leaf steel allow it to twist...? Or should there be enough twist in the leaf springs & bushes to allow the shackle to drop to a vertical angle, regardless shackle angle at ride height. (assuming there are no limiting shocks, c-clips, brakelines etc...)
how does imboarding the bumpstop improve droop?
As I understand it all it will do is bring the pivot (stop) point on the diff further in, causing the tyre to be stuffed further into the guard with the same uptravel...? Is this part of the reason theres more drop on the opposite side?
Also, is there not a point where the wheel/diff/axle will just not drop any further from binding up due to the arc they travel in?
IE as the spring is fixed at both can it be limited by only twisting as much as the rear bushed mount, two bushed shackle mounts & the "spring" in leaf steel allow it to twist...? Or should there be enough twist in the leaf springs & bushes to allow the shackle to drop to a vertical angle, regardless shackle angle at ride height. (assuming there are no limiting shocks, c-clips, brakelines etc...)
The leverage generated by the compressed side against the inboarded bump stop (longer lever) provides more compression and a degree of forced droop on the opposing side.Dee wrote:steve,
how does imboarding the bumpstop improve droop?
As I understand it all it will do is bring the pivot (stop) point on the diff further in, causing the tyre to be stuffed further into the guard with the same uptravel...? Is this part of the reason theres more drop on the opposite side?
[quote="Harb"]Well I'm guessing that they didn't think everyone would carry on like a big bunch of sooky girls over it like they have........[/quote]
Not wanting to open a can of worms again with photos of your yellow car, but that front end isn't flexing anywhere near as well as RUF. I'm happy to admit it will have better caster control, might steer better (although front a frames generally have some bump steer too) and won't axlewrap at all (which IS an advantage of coils)
RUF results in a very low front spring rate with good free arch, so the front works far harder than the rear. IMHO this leads to cars that climb much better, as they resist unloading the front and try to keep the car as level as possible.
When installation practicalities are involved, there's very little difference in the potential travel of leaves or coils in the same application.
What I mean my this is that very long "coil" travel is possible with, say, coilovers, but coilovers are not very practical to install in daily driven applications, requiring lots of overall length, and compared to off the shelf coils from a useful application (like a jimny or vitara) a leaf spring can easily have more travel.
PS - nice brakeline limit strap
Steve.
RUF results in a very low front spring rate with good free arch, so the front works far harder than the rear. IMHO this leads to cars that climb much better, as they resist unloading the front and try to keep the car as level as possible.
When installation practicalities are involved, there's very little difference in the potential travel of leaves or coils in the same application.
What I mean my this is that very long "coil" travel is possible with, say, coilovers, but coilovers are not very practical to install in daily driven applications, requiring lots of overall length, and compared to off the shelf coils from a useful application (like a jimny or vitara) a leaf spring can easily have more travel.
PS - nice brakeline limit strap
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
[ oh and the brake line is actually connected to a small spring to maintain tension.....don't want it gettin pinched in those coils do ? mmm tastey can of worms steve...thanks........]Please post a photo of it flexed with the swaybar removed so we can compare apples with apples. Personally, I like to see the body kept as flat as possible when the car is flexed.
WT Ruf, uphill. compare the angle of the body and the tierod in relation to the body. The front is working very hard here to keep the body level
also note how hard the compressed wheel is deep up into the guard, lowering the overall height of the car on the obstacle.
I've got another couple of photos of Ruf cars in different positions that demonstrate the balance RUF provides I'll post once I have got them off the notebook.
Steve.
WT Ruf, uphill. compare the angle of the body and the tierod in relation to the body. The front is working very hard here to keep the body level
also note how hard the compressed wheel is deep up into the guard, lowering the overall height of the car on the obstacle.
I've got another couple of photos of Ruf cars in different positions that demonstrate the balance RUF provides I'll post once I have got them off the notebook.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
this is getting interesting...didn't realise i was such a good fisherman!
and what is the rear axle doing in the pic you have posted?
oh,and i run standard vitara front coils...no need for coilovers or custom stuff.
and here is a pic of kens lj...just to show i'm not biased between coils or leaves.has standard sierra fron leaves and is narrower than a wide track! lets see where this goes.....[ waitng with great anticipation on comment about scissor shackles!....]
and what is the rear axle doing in the pic you have posted?
oh,and i run standard vitara front coils...no need for coilovers or custom stuff.
and here is a pic of kens lj...just to show i'm not biased between coils or leaves.has standard sierra fron leaves and is narrower than a wide track! lets see where this goes.....[ waitng with great anticipation on comment about scissor shackles!....]
The rear axle is doing almost nothing - just the way I like it when climbing. Gregs car settles onto its bumstops when climbing which makes for a very stable car on big angles when combined with the front working hard. (and sitting low)joeblow wrote:this is getting interesting...didn't realise i was such a good fisherman!
and what is the rear axle doing in the pic you have posted?
oh,and i run standard vitara front coils...no need for coilovers or custom stuff.
and here is a pic of kens lj...just to show i'm not biased between coils or leaves.has standard sierra fron leaves and is narrower than a wide track! lets see where this goes.....[ waitng with great anticipation on comment about scissor shackles!....]
I'm going to a much longer rear leaf on my tray to improve droop but I'm not convinced it's going to improve capability much.
A vitara rear coil is designed for around 8" of vertical travel, no more, which is plenty, but not mind blowing, and well within the travel of an OME sierra rear leaf.
Here you go: Scissor shackles are sh1t. that car would have the same travel with the spring clips pulled and conventional shackles, proved by the effective range of shackle movement in the photos. It's far better balanced than the coil car though, with the travel much more equally spread between both axles and the body much more level.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
....bow down to the great steve......
Yep, 50mmX25mmX3mm 'c' section. They're quick and easy to make this way. They look a bit hack but last well.
Steve.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
We need all of us go together for a 4wd.so we can see which one will work better for suspension flex .my motto : when the chequered flag drop the bull@##$%^^ stops .
so mate bring pencils and rulers with u so we can meausure which one is better.
So we don't miss interpret people on which one is better.
so mate bring pencils and rulers with u so we can meausure which one is better.
So we don't miss interpret people on which one is better.
I know there is a bit of stirring going on but seriously how bout a comparison travel vs real world wheeling which set up is better overall.
Up until recently I had massive uptravel without bumpstops thinking it was all about flex, but by limiting up travel and using droop my rig is much more stable but I havnt worked on the rear set up yet.
Nik
but seriously how bout a comparison travel vs real world wheeling which set up is better overall.Up until recently I had massive uptravel without bumpstops thinking it was all about flex, but by limiting up travel and using droop my rig is much more stable but I havnt worked on the rear set up yet.
Nik
Or 30deg RTI ramp post up your front and rear wheel travel score and your wheelbase....? And add a photo to see how centered the body is to the suspension......?a reef wrote:We need all of us go together for a 4wd.so we can see which one will work better for suspension flex
..wrench, wheel, wreck repeat..
check out the action @ http://www.darwin4x4.net
check out the action @ http://www.darwin4x4.net
I'm sorry that to a certain extent I took the bait and derailed the thread. I apologise to Spike_sierra for this. I am aware that Joe has built an impressive car with a fully fabricated coil conversion, however, it's irrelevant to to the thread and I should have ignored it.
In regard to flex -
NIK,( and it sounds like you're on what I think is the right track) trying to objectively compare suspension behaviour, especially in real world situations, is very very difficult. Here's a link to a very old page (from 1999) where a guy studying mech eng had a go at objective measurements. It's interesting reading but gets pretty dense, especially without the photos.
http://www.yellowdefender.com/twist_off ... ff_result/
This was also reported in US Fourwheeler magazine at the time, as Jim Allen, a well known off road technical author and journalist (his books are excellent) covered the event.
At the end of the day, the cars with very high front articulation performed the best, even over cars that went further up the ramp. From that point on, I've been working on RUF to mimic this behaviour, as it seems most relevant to the way we drive our cars here in vic, recreationally. (Comp is a different matter and will require much more compression travel and a stiffer front end)
One of the problems with the ramp is that 3/4 eliptic (which I have built and is kinda OK) Coils going loose, and scissor shackles all have no effect on the ramp but have a BIG typically negaitve effect of the drivability of the car in the bush.
As a result, I'm pretty sold on RUF and bumpstop spacing, also, though, I'm less sold on coils as a blanket "fix all" for bad suspension behaviour. Coil cars can still have poor balance and drivability, even if they travel really well (on a ramp.) Another interesting example of this is that vitaras have very good behaviour off road even with limited travel and IFS, because they are well balanced and the front end doesn't want to pick up.
It's also why I hate seeing coil converter rears and leaf front - the front normally never starts to work until the rear is fully flexed.
Generally though, getting a the up high on an obstacle with one axle flexing all over the place looks "cool" and no-one can tell the owner how crap it is, so the whole thing doesn't get very "objective" unless you can objectify "radness" the next problem is that a much more mild car will normally drive the same line, but just pick a wheel up (maybe a long way) which is no big deal, unless you own the "cool" car - then it's proof your "cool" rig is better.
Here's an idea for properly objective suspension comparison.
I'm no good at the maths but I think this can be done.
Park the car on some corner weight scales, with one corner on a centre post lift. (let's assume all 4 wheels have 25% of the cars weight on them) start jacking the car and as one wheel rises, compare the % corner weight at each wheel. The car that stays closest to 25% at each wheel the longest is the most balanced and will be the most successful off road.
I don't know how this data could be displayed, but I think it might be possible to produce a graph that could be very quickly compared to see bad behaviour VS good behaviour. I'll do a bit of work on excel to see how it might look.
Steve.
In regard to flex -
NIK,( and it sounds like you're on what I think is the right track) trying to objectively compare suspension behaviour, especially in real world situations, is very very difficult. Here's a link to a very old page (from 1999) where a guy studying mech eng had a go at objective measurements. It's interesting reading but gets pretty dense, especially without the photos.
http://www.yellowdefender.com/twist_off ... ff_result/
This was also reported in US Fourwheeler magazine at the time, as Jim Allen, a well known off road technical author and journalist (his books are excellent) covered the event.
At the end of the day, the cars with very high front articulation performed the best, even over cars that went further up the ramp. From that point on, I've been working on RUF to mimic this behaviour, as it seems most relevant to the way we drive our cars here in vic, recreationally. (Comp is a different matter and will require much more compression travel and a stiffer front end)
One of the problems with the ramp is that 3/4 eliptic (which I have built and is kinda OK) Coils going loose, and scissor shackles all have no effect on the ramp but have a BIG typically negaitve effect of the drivability of the car in the bush.
As a result, I'm pretty sold on RUF and bumpstop spacing, also, though, I'm less sold on coils as a blanket "fix all" for bad suspension behaviour. Coil cars can still have poor balance and drivability, even if they travel really well (on a ramp.) Another interesting example of this is that vitaras have very good behaviour off road even with limited travel and IFS, because they are well balanced and the front end doesn't want to pick up.
It's also why I hate seeing coil converter rears and leaf front - the front normally never starts to work until the rear is fully flexed.
Generally though, getting a the up high on an obstacle with one axle flexing all over the place looks "cool" and no-one can tell the owner how crap it is, so the whole thing doesn't get very "objective" unless you can objectify "radness" the next problem is that a much more mild car will normally drive the same line, but just pick a wheel up (maybe a long way) which is no big deal, unless you own the "cool" car - then it's proof your "cool" rig is better.
Here's an idea for properly objective suspension comparison.
I'm no good at the maths but I think this can be done.
Park the car on some corner weight scales, with one corner on a centre post lift. (let's assume all 4 wheels have 25% of the cars weight on them) start jacking the car and as one wheel rises, compare the % corner weight at each wheel. The car that stays closest to 25% at each wheel the longest is the most balanced and will be the most successful off road.
I don't know how this data could be displayed, but I think it might be possible to produce a graph that could be very quickly compared to see bad behaviour VS good behaviour. I'll do a bit of work on excel to see how it might look.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
Sorry to jump in on a Suzuki discussion.
My thoughts are after building long travel coil vehicles (Rovers) that could drive to top of ramp, is to not worry about the ramp as I haven't found one that I have had to drive in the bush yet.
My current GQ is built more around achieving decent travel but improving handling making it easier to drive.
My thoughts are after building long travel coil vehicles (Rovers) that could drive to top of ramp, is to not worry about the ramp as I haven't found one that I have had to drive in the bush yet.
My current GQ is built more around achieving decent travel but improving handling making it easier to drive.
:rofl: :popcorn: :snipersmile:
X2 Lockee - I was involved in a very interesting (and long) discussion on the Rover page years ago with Bill Larman and others in relation to this.
Steve.
Steve.
[quote="greg"] some say he is a man without happy dreams, or that he sees silver linings on clouds and wonders why they are not platinum... all we know, is he's called the stevie.[/quote]
I will jump in here. Any vehicle wether it has coils or leaves if it has more travel in the reaar than the front then it will be unstable off road. For the car to handle its best you nedd more travell in the front than the rear. This gives you a lot better on road handling and will work better offroad.
An a-frame or four link front on a road car will give bump steer full stop.
Do the math and geometry it physically has to push on the drag link when compressing.
The can is now a 44 gallon drum.
SAM
An a-frame or four link front on a road car will give bump steer full stop.
Do the math and geometry it physically has to push on the drag link when compressing.
The can is now a 44 gallon drum.
SAM
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