the recovery of a vehicle from a comp track should be done with or without outside help. what i mean to say is recovery is not part of the scored event so the recovery must be done quickly and safely, so this is something that should be done under the authority of the track offical. and yes then return to the end of the line. this is a driving event .
glen
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hey pos, i hope you guys dont mind my suggestions as i'm thinking like a spectator and all you guys are thinking like a competitor.
We allready have a hard core comp [ascc] and an extreme core comp [xrcc] and a winch comp [xwc] and i was thinking the put up or shut up [puosu] should be something different again otherwise its just an extension of the ASCC or a competitor to the XRCC.
by the talk from the start it sounded like you guys wanted something like a grudge match just like a weekend wheeling with mates, each driver trying to get up progressivly harder obstacles.
I suppose you could always adopt the XRCC rules for the PUOSU with the only difference being the PUOSU is run over a much shorter course.
But i would rather see a grudge match type thing .
what do other spectators want to see ?
what do the competitors want ?
Come on everyone, have a say
We allready have a hard core comp [ascc] and an extreme core comp [xrcc] and a winch comp [xwc] and i was thinking the put up or shut up [puosu] should be something different again otherwise its just an extension of the ASCC or a competitor to the XRCC.
by the talk from the start it sounded like you guys wanted something like a grudge match just like a weekend wheeling with mates, each driver trying to get up progressivly harder obstacles.
I suppose you could always adopt the XRCC rules for the PUOSU with the only difference being the PUOSU is run over a much shorter course.
But i would rather see a grudge match type thing .
what do other spectators want to see ?
what do the competitors want ?
Come on everyone, have a say
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glen said it better what i was trying to say.
i envisioned the PUOSU being like the superman event after the QSCC at black duck, anyone could have a go at it as it wasn't timed so you didn't need insurance and didn't have to plan ahead, you could just have a go if you wanted to.
there was just one obstacle to try and get over so it didn't take very long for each driver to complete and it was easy to recover them if they didnt make it.
shane
i envisioned the PUOSU being like the superman event after the QSCC at black duck, anyone could have a go at it as it wasn't timed so you didn't need insurance and didn't have to plan ahead, you could just have a go if you wanted to.
there was just one obstacle to try and get over so it didn't take very long for each driver to complete and it was easy to recover them if they didnt make it.
shane
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big red wrote:glen said it better what i was trying to say.
i envisioned the PUOSU being like the superman event after the QSCC at black duck, anyone could have a go at it as it wasn't timed so you didn't need insurance and didn't have to plan ahead, you could just have a go if you wanted to.
there was just one obstacle to try and get over so it didn't take very long for each driver to complete and it was easy to recover them if they didnt make it.
shane
Hit the nail on the head.
This is exactly what we are talkin about.
That was the best part of any short coarse.
Nothin better than flat out turn left front wheels 4 foot in the air and snap the front Tailshaft
big red wrote:hey pos, i hope you guys dont mind my suggestions as i'm thinking like a spectator and all you guys are thinking like a competitor.
Come on everyone, have a say
Big red thats cool i wasn't having a go at you, i think its great that your putting so much into this event as we are, after all thats the hole idea of this board.
V8GRUNT, SAM, RUFF and I could quite easily just talk on the weekend but this way we would not get to see other peoples views.
So keep the suggestions coming, you have heaps of great ideas.
I think originally it was set up as a grudge match and than as we thought about it i seemed to need some sort of rules.
Maybe we need to look at the spectators view and thin the rules down to just the bare essentials.
So How does this look:
1. Start and finish gate, you need to get from A to B in the alotted time (eg 2 minutes or adjusted to each stage).
2. you get stuck, time is stopped when driver calls it, your position will be marked and than you are recovered as quickly and safely as possible and start with the remaining time.
3. Score will go by the mark that is furtherest threw the track.
4. Of course no rockstacking, winching ect.
5.Break down time is from when they leave the track until the last possible car has run the next stage same as at xrcc.
6. POINTS: WILL BE AWARDED TO THE TEAM THAT GETS THE FURTHEREST AND ALSO THE BIGGEST REACTION FROM THE CROWD.
(The reaction from the crowd will basically work like this, when all the teams have run though they ask the crowd to chear for the best team that put on a great show, i know other drivers will cheer for someone if they drove it better than what they did and i'm sure the crowd would get really revved up too!!.)
So we could have 80% of the score comes from how far you got and the other 20% from the crowd.
To me i doesn't matter if theres some bais in this style as i'm there to have fun and promote this part of the sport as a FULL-ON EXTREME GOOD TIME and not some event where theres protests, bicthiness and rules galore just for a plastic trophy.
How does that sound, fairly limited rules and heaps of right foot
Let us know what you think!!!
I dont think there should be any score at all awarded if you cant complete the obstical(remember these are obsticals not a coarse). It wont be long enough to score in that way.
I think the original thought of a Grudge match style is the way to go.
You either drive the obstical or you dont.If no body drives an obstical then thats just the way it is.Move on to the next one otherwise working out who got furthest gets too difficult.
I also think that maybe we make it Max 5 attempts then you DNF.Other wise we could be there all day if no one can complete the obstical.
This wont be anything like Short coarse we are not planning on driving any distance on a coarse we are driving 1 single obstical. Not 2 or 3 obsticals in a stage. Otherwise we may as well just run the short coarse because Glen allready has this event all sorted out.
I think the original thought of a Grudge match style is the way to go.
You either drive the obstical or you dont.If no body drives an obstical then thats just the way it is.Move on to the next one otherwise working out who got furthest gets too difficult.
I also think that maybe we make it Max 5 attempts then you DNF.Other wise we could be there all day if no one can complete the obstical.
This wont be anything like Short coarse we are not planning on driving any distance on a coarse we are driving 1 single obstical. Not 2 or 3 obsticals in a stage. Otherwise we may as well just run the short coarse because Glen allready has this event all sorted out.
The reason I think that just allowing so many attempts (say 5) wont work is how do you determine when you have had one attempt? How many reverses are allowed within an attempt? Do we end up not allowing reverses? How do we split up the competitior to get the places to award if its only on who completes the most abstacles. We went through this before and is why I suggested allowing reverses and penalising them (and how it allows easier obstacles to be set and still split up the competitors for the final placings) We carnt do the distance thing as tony suggested.
The rules have to be as simple as possible but they have to cover every possible occurance otherwise you gota make stuff up on the day about what to do and we have already played that game and it doesent work.
You have to control the recovering and you have to control the break down time cause if you dont then things can become unfair and piss people off. While somebody is competing I dont think that they should recieve outside help cause it will complicate things. If they get outside help then they DNF that obstacle. If you just let them try to self recover its a lot simpler.
In my mind the type of driving and the sort of rigs that will be good at this style of event will be alot different to either short course and XRCC. The rigs that are sucessfull here are going to be big, badass machines that are extreemly capable and not necessarily very manouverable (as opposed to xrcc format which in my mind is totally different by the nature of how the competition is set with its multi-obstacle stages. The PUOSH format will encourage a lot more agressive driving over much harder obstacles than the xrcc format could allow (and for that matter ascc) (and for that matter the US style rockcrawling)
Sam
The rules have to be as simple as possible but they have to cover every possible occurance otherwise you gota make stuff up on the day about what to do and we have already played that game and it doesent work.
You have to control the recovering and you have to control the break down time cause if you dont then things can become unfair and piss people off. While somebody is competing I dont think that they should recieve outside help cause it will complicate things. If they get outside help then they DNF that obstacle. If you just let them try to self recover its a lot simpler.
In my mind the type of driving and the sort of rigs that will be good at this style of event will be alot different to either short course and XRCC. The rigs that are sucessfull here are going to be big, badass machines that are extreemly capable and not necessarily very manouverable (as opposed to xrcc format which in my mind is totally different by the nature of how the competition is set with its multi-obstacle stages. The PUOSH format will encourage a lot more agressive driving over much harder obstacles than the xrcc format could allow (and for that matter ascc) (and for that matter the US style rockcrawling)
Sam
Just make it one winner no other places...easier to score.
You only score if you make the obstacle, 100 for first attempt, 60 for second attempt, 30 for third attempt, then dnf.
If more than one driver has the winning score then do another insane obstacle to get a winner from just those drivers.
An attempt is finished when your wheels stop...the idea is to drive it in one go, so no reverses. this is fair because everyone is in the same boat and you cant spend half an hour manouvering into position.
If your attempt fails and you can reverse back down for another attempt then go for your second attempt, if you have to recover or be recovered forward then you go around to the back of the line for your second attempt.
As a spectator we only want to see action and not hang around while someone stuffs around for ages trying to manouver or self recover.
Theres an old saying..."short and quick does the trick"
Just some more thoughts
You only score if you make the obstacle, 100 for first attempt, 60 for second attempt, 30 for third attempt, then dnf.
If more than one driver has the winning score then do another insane obstacle to get a winner from just those drivers.
An attempt is finished when your wheels stop...the idea is to drive it in one go, so no reverses. this is fair because everyone is in the same boat and you cant spend half an hour manouvering into position.
If your attempt fails and you can reverse back down for another attempt then go for your second attempt, if you have to recover or be recovered forward then you go around to the back of the line for your second attempt.
As a spectator we only want to see action and not hang around while someone stuffs around for ages trying to manouver or self recover.
Theres an old saying..."short and quick does the trick"
Just some more thoughts
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Maybe just have COMPLETED or NOT COMPLETED.
Like big red said in the event of a tie at the end of all the stages, have one mean arse mother of a obsticle and the one to get the furtherest through wins.
Sounds OK.
I was thinking about the issue of reverses, should we have none or some or penalise them i came up with another option.
Have no limit, Just hear me out with this one.
If you only have two minutes to complete a stage than reversing is just going to use up time, if someone wants to sit there stuff arsing about for a minute than so be it they just do themselves out of time.
I dont think it would get boring as the stage only goes for 1 or 2 minutes so it doesn't allow much time to root about.
I know everyone wants to see rigs do it in one motion but how many times have you seen a rig drive something cleanly first go, hardly ever!!
Now think about what they were trying to get over and multiply this by 10 and thats how hard its going to be, IMHO i can't see any one cleaning a stage if there as hard as i imagine.
Just another idea
Like big red said in the event of a tie at the end of all the stages, have one mean arse mother of a obsticle and the one to get the furtherest through wins.
Sounds OK.
I was thinking about the issue of reverses, should we have none or some or penalise them i came up with another option.
Have no limit, Just hear me out with this one.
If you only have two minutes to complete a stage than reversing is just going to use up time, if someone wants to sit there stuff arsing about for a minute than so be it they just do themselves out of time.
I dont think it would get boring as the stage only goes for 1 or 2 minutes so it doesn't allow much time to root about.
I know everyone wants to see rigs do it in one motion but how many times have you seen a rig drive something cleanly first go, hardly ever!!
Now think about what they were trying to get over and multiply this by 10 and thats how hard its going to be, IMHO i can't see any one cleaning a stage if there as hard as i imagine.
Just another idea
The single obsticle works well and is probably the easyest to score.
In the QSCC in the last round we renamed the superman hill "VERTICAL ASSAULT" and this name will be a part of the ASCC for the full 2003 series. Why not have your put up or shut up along the same lines to start and later if the need changes it can be expanded to suit. this type of formate can be used in a motorsport complex where rego and insurrance is not an issue. Ithink this can be a serious proposal for a long term event.
the thing is a marketable item and i see big things for it over the next 12 months. Many spectators come to the short course with the expection of seeing the vertical assault on sunday morning and is infact a highlight for many. there is a lot of emotion and guts involved with it, you just need to look at the guy in the rangerover who rolled at the last VERTICAL ASSAULT most of you know him or saw his effotts of channel 7. he addmited to me that he is only interested in winning the vertical assault. this type of event really is what hardcore is all about. max adlenalyn and win at all cost, now thats fun. what do think of this,
some of you have suggested that sunday morning is prefered because this allowed you to compete in the ASCC.
I may be wrong?
glen
In the QSCC in the last round we renamed the superman hill "VERTICAL ASSAULT" and this name will be a part of the ASCC for the full 2003 series. Why not have your put up or shut up along the same lines to start and later if the need changes it can be expanded to suit. this type of formate can be used in a motorsport complex where rego and insurrance is not an issue. Ithink this can be a serious proposal for a long term event.
the thing is a marketable item and i see big things for it over the next 12 months. Many spectators come to the short course with the expection of seeing the vertical assault on sunday morning and is infact a highlight for many. there is a lot of emotion and guts involved with it, you just need to look at the guy in the rangerover who rolled at the last VERTICAL ASSAULT most of you know him or saw his effotts of channel 7. he addmited to me that he is only interested in winning the vertical assault. this type of event really is what hardcore is all about. max adlenalyn and win at all cost, now thats fun. what do think of this,
some of you have suggested that sunday morning is prefered because this allowed you to compete in the ASCC.
I may be wrong?
glen
if time limits are ok for insurance purposes then a two minute time limit with unlimited reverses would be ok as it would be quick anyway.
IF timeing is an insurance problem then no reverses and you would try harder on the next attempt and as long as your wheels are turning you are still trying [i can see it now, motor screaming, tyres smoking, front waving all over the rocks trying to get grip ]
it will be a great spectacle !
From a spectator viewpoint we dont want every vehicle to complete it, make it more exciting when someone finally does.
IF timeing is an insurance problem then no reverses and you would try harder on the next attempt and as long as your wheels are turning you are still trying [i can see it now, motor screaming, tyres smoking, front waving all over the rocks trying to get grip
]
it will be a great spectacle !
From a spectator viewpoint we dont want every vehicle to complete it, make it more exciting when someone finally does.
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Just a thought guys, on monday I start the advertising for the short course round one, I need to have a title and name for this event as it's a given that we will run this. suggestions like
Outerlimits
ATOMIC ROCK
BRAINS OUT ANTICS
ROCK CRAWLERS WITH HORSEPOWER AND BAD ATTITUDES.
POST UP MEN AND LADIES.[/i]
Outerlimits
ATOMIC ROCK
BRAINS OUT ANTICS
ROCK CRAWLERS WITH HORSEPOWER AND BAD ATTITUDES.
POST UP MEN AND LADIES.[/i]
v8grunt wrote:Just a thought guys, on monday I start the advertising for the short course round one, I need to have a title and name for this event as it's a given that we will run this. suggestions like
Outerlimits
ATOMIC ROCK
BRAINS OUT ANTICS
ROCK CRAWLERS WITH HORSEPOWER AND BAD ATTITUDES.
POST UP MEN AND LADIES.[/i]
"Outerlimits - Put Up Or Shut Up"
In terms of the format we have now come full circle in our discussion and are back to how it was first proposed - something very simple and very hard.
There are many reasons why this wont work as a format:
Tracks will be to hard to find and design (its a very fine limit between something that is really hard to drive but still possible for the top rigs and something that is easy)
The competitors wont be split up enough score wise (eg will have one rig drive all the obstacles and the lesser rigs wont drive any)
This format wont produce good hard core driving - either nobody is going to drive or just a few rigs are going to drive it easily or everyont is going to drive it. Look at TT if the obstacle was just the rocky horror double ledge of the big rock or the big rock on mini wirrby the competition be a boaring failure. On these obstacles the rigs that drove them drove it easily (the one exception was the GQ on rocky horror) and no one else even looked like driving it. This is why this format wont produce entertaining driving.
This is why we were talking about allowing reversing etc and penalising it so that it guives much better options in terms of the obstacles that can be set.
Everyone should read the entire thread again to see how the discussion has progressed because this has all been covered.
Sam
There are many reasons why this wont work as a format:
Tracks will be to hard to find and design (its a very fine limit between something that is really hard to drive but still possible for the top rigs and something that is easy)
The competitors wont be split up enough score wise (eg will have one rig drive all the obstacles and the lesser rigs wont drive any)
This format wont produce good hard core driving - either nobody is going to drive or just a few rigs are going to drive it easily or everyont is going to drive it. Look at TT if the obstacle was just the rocky horror double ledge of the big rock or the big rock on mini wirrby the competition be a boaring failure. On these obstacles the rigs that drove them drove it easily (the one exception was the GQ on rocky horror) and no one else even looked like driving it. This is why this format wont produce entertaining driving.
This is why we were talking about allowing reversing etc and penalising it so that it guives much better options in terms of the obstacles that can be set.
Everyone should read the entire thread again to see how the discussion has progressed because this has all been covered.
Sam
sorry sam but we need to come to terms with the concept and set some sort of formate. I know we have done a complete circle in discussion.
point 1 some people want to be able to compete in the ASCC and PUOSU.
this is a problem in that the vechicles may suffer damage and not be able to do both. comments please
Point 2 PUOSU can work only for the top cars running large tyres and egos of which at this stage there is only about 6 or 8 cars in this class, most of these cars are very capable and owners are all fiece competitors.
Point 3 the PUOSU event can be run with natural obsicles in some hard to get to areas or in man made purpose built tracks, should you decide to run with natural obsticles you run the chance of alienating your spectators. having said this you may as well go for a drive with your mates on the weekend to get the same resault. the man made tracks are not a problem to build in a style to suit both competitor and spectators. my point is if we have the obsticles in hard to get to places the spectators will give it a wide berth. I know you think the the obsticles can't be made to suit. but have a lok at the gorge at black duck is this 1 of the best tracks around and spectators love the action on show at such a convienante spot.
Point 4 We need to decide on spectators or not. and the times this should be run.
the type of obsticles can be sorted at lmp on 18-19 by general consensis
i don't want to upset the apple cart or piss people off, but the idea is here and it now needs to be decided opon, perhaps a round table with all those involved or interested may do the job
glen
point 1 some people want to be able to compete in the ASCC and PUOSU.
this is a problem in that the vechicles may suffer damage and not be able to do both. comments please
Point 2 PUOSU can work only for the top cars running large tyres and egos of which at this stage there is only about 6 or 8 cars in this class, most of these cars are very capable and owners are all fiece competitors.
Point 3 the PUOSU event can be run with natural obsicles in some hard to get to areas or in man made purpose built tracks, should you decide to run with natural obsticles you run the chance of alienating your spectators. having said this you may as well go for a drive with your mates on the weekend to get the same resault. the man made tracks are not a problem to build in a style to suit both competitor and spectators. my point is if we have the obsticles in hard to get to places the spectators will give it a wide berth. I know you think the the obsticles can't be made to suit. but have a lok at the gorge at black duck is this 1 of the best tracks around and spectators love the action on show at such a convienante spot.
Point 4 We need to decide on spectators or not. and the times this should be run.
the type of obsticles can be sorted at lmp on 18-19 by general consensis
i don't want to upset the apple cart or piss people off, but the idea is here and it now needs to be decided opon, perhaps a round table with all those involved or interested may do the job
glen
I think we all want to drive something harder and meaner all the time, can you imagine what we will be driving in 2004.
For this reason i would like to see a lot of different obsticles that are really hard.
Dont get me wrong ascc is full-on and the gorge run is awsome but i dont think for FULL-MOD rockcrawlers this is what they want, i have no doubt glen will have rocks there that would make us quiver but it is still set up for nissans and the likes with 35's and lockers.
I think we need to explore the OUTERLIMITS of this sport and i'm sure people would love to see this sort of action.
I know at the moment if we set up PUOSU it's going to be like a normal weekend for us BUT how else will the public see what we do.
I have thought of 4 or 5 really hard obsticles that are all within 2 minutes drive of each other and they are easily assesable by spectators.
Why cant we try running 3 or 4 on saturday and than have your man made obsticle as the BIG FINALE on the saturday.( obsticles are all located around the Cruiser canyon area, so its not really to far from the expo site)
If we go up there and there isn't a rig left standing at the end of day one than i suppose the tracks may have been to hard but at least we will know for next time.
I know as a spectator you can only watch so many cars run the same tracks so many times before you get bored, i know at TUFF TRUCK after 3 or 4 you knew what was going to happen. So maybe by running the PUOSU in conjunction with ASCC will draw larger crowds and if they get sick of watching us roll on PUOSU than they have the opportunity to watch ASCC and vice versa, also remembering the final on sunday should keep everyone around!
I'm free this weekend if you want to organise a piss-up come discusion i'm in
For this reason i would like to see a lot of different obsticles that are really hard.
Dont get me wrong ascc is full-on and the gorge run is awsome but i dont think for FULL-MOD rockcrawlers this is what they want, i have no doubt glen will have rocks there that would make us quiver but it is still set up for nissans and the likes with 35's and lockers.
I think we need to explore the OUTERLIMITS of this sport and i'm sure people would love to see this sort of action.
I know at the moment if we set up PUOSU it's going to be like a normal weekend for us BUT how else will the public see what we do.
I have thought of 4 or 5 really hard obsticles that are all within 2 minutes drive of each other and they are easily assesable by spectators.
Why cant we try running 3 or 4 on saturday and than have your man made obsticle as the BIG FINALE on the saturday.( obsticles are all located around the Cruiser canyon area, so its not really to far from the expo site)
If we go up there and there isn't a rig left standing at the end of day one than i suppose the tracks may have been to hard but at least we will know for next time.
I know as a spectator you can only watch so many cars run the same tracks so many times before you get bored, i know at TUFF TRUCK after 3 or 4 you knew what was going to happen. So maybe by running the PUOSU in conjunction with ASCC will draw larger crowds and if they get sick of watching us roll on PUOSU than they have the opportunity to watch ASCC and vice versa, also remembering the final on sunday should keep everyone around!
I'm free this weekend if you want to organise a piss-up come discusion i'm in
Spoke to sam today, we have a formate to run by (lose formate not set in concrete)
we will use the 18-19 jan at LMP to discuss obsticles and formate.
so far the PUOSU will be run saturday afternoon, saturday night under lights and the big one on sunday morning. this will all be done at the ASCC venue.
there will be advertising to reflect this.
morelater,I will post the details of start time and what we will do for the weekend in the ASCC thread.
there are changes to spoter conduct for the ASCC this year and some other minor rule changes which we be discussed.
at this stage we will have trophies for outright, trophies for sundays effort and best presented team.
those who are interested should be there as the safety issues will be discussed at length. send an email so i know how many people to cater for
thanks glen.
we will use the 18-19 jan at LMP to discuss obsticles and formate.
so far the PUOSU will be run saturday afternoon, saturday night under lights and the big one on sunday morning. this will all be done at the ASCC venue.
there will be advertising to reflect this.
morelater,I will post the details of start time and what we will do for the weekend in the ASCC thread.
there are changes to spoter conduct for the ASCC this year and some other minor rule changes which we be discussed.
at this stage we will have trophies for outright, trophies for sundays effort and best presented team.
those who are interested should be there as the safety issues will be discussed at length. send an email so i know how many people to cater for
thanks glen.
its a secret I just love sitting back and seeing the horrified looks on the faces of those that I terrorise with competition.SORRY POS but you will just have to sit and worry like everybody else HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
v8grunt wrote:its a secret I just love sitting back and seeing the horrified looks on the faces of those that I terrorise with competition.SORRY POS but you will just have to sit and worry like everybody else HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
I'm not worried, i just dont want to drive all that way and drive one or two obsticles. (i wont be driving in ASCC as i dont want to break before PUOSU)
I know that there going to be b*lls*it hard (which is what we want) i mainly want to know how many there will be and if they are separate from the ASCC courses.
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