Feroza - lifting, wheels and tyres

[mrpham]

Hi everyone,

Recently joined up to the forums and having a great time learning stuff about my Feroza My mates have taken me off road a few times in their fourbys and now I'm hooked! Got myself a 94' narrow track Feroza not long ago and I'm planning to modify it a bit so I can go offroading with my mates.

I've talked to the guys at fourby.com.au and I'll be booking my car in for the following:
- 40mm suspension lift including new Tough Dog shocks and leafs (possibly get 50-60mm though)
- 50mm body lift

I just need to shop for wheels and tyres now, but this part of the project is proving to be the most difficult for me... Not sure what the largest tyre will fit after the lift, I'm prepared to roll the guards. I have my eyes set on some King Wheels 15x8 with -23 offset or the 15x10 with -43 offest.
- What are the advantages and disadvantages with going for the wider 10" wheels?
- Does the width of the wheel affect the width/height of the tyre

I've looked at tyres and the Mickey Thompson ATZ look like they will suite me the best - http://www.mickeythompsontires.com.au/t ... al_atz.htm . Prices of the 32x11.5 and 33x12.5 are the same, the guy at TJM says the 33" should fit if I roll the guards but he's not 100% sure. If I go with the 33" it means I'll need the 15x10 wheels because the minimum wheel width needed is 8.5".

If anyone has experience with a similar setup, I'd greatly appreciate any experience you can share

In addition, I plan to do some mods to the intake and invest in some extractors from Genie Headers. I'll be able to do these myself so I can save some money!


Thanks for reading!!

[MightyMouse]

Where to start......

You can't actually do a suspension lift to the front of a Feroza (without MAJOR work ) all you can do is wind up the torsion bars which means you sacrifice all your droop travel. This will make it significantly less capable off road.

Body lift - 50mm is about the easy limit, but there's lots of small details needing to be taken care of - raising bumpers, fan and shroud etc etc.....
Lots of posts on doing this already.

Your also going to have significant problems fitting 33's as the fronts are going to touch in lots of places IF you go offroad. 31's touch occasionally so anything more is an issue that's going to require lots of bodywork to fix.
Not fixing the clearance issues can result in severe body damage.
Measure the actual tyre diameter before you buy - most aren't as tall as they say but some are actually bigger !

Your also going to strike major gearing problems - even 31's make the Feroza struggle ( low range isn't that low ) and the extra tyre diameter is going to be a BIG problem.

Fifth gear will be absolutely useless - around 2800RPM @ 100km and the engine isn't going to cope with that at all.

So there you are - you have a Feroza, you need to understand its limitations very quickly otherwise your going to turn a moderately capable stockie into a cool looking disaster off road.

And as its a Daihatsu there aren't many aftermarket mechanical parts to make it more capable and they are #$%^ expensive.

If you want to seriously play off road - as opposed to the occasional social trip buy a Sierra.

P.S. Its going to be very illegal, and QLD is very hard to get modifications approved apparently.

[mrpham]

Thanks MightMouse!

I've read up on the body lift stuff and realise all the little things that need to be done. I was going to do this myself but decided to let the guys at fourby do it all. That way they can handle everything and there will be less things for me to worry about.

Regarding lifting the front, I've read on WARFS.org that most aftermarkt kits will give roughly 50mm lift. Will wingding up the torsion bars this much make my car less capable? When people post up saying they have a 3" suspension lift, what does that entail? Sorry about the questions, but why would people wind up the torsion bars to give more lift if it doesn't improve offroad capabilties?

Is there anyway to fix the gearing problems? I read about people changing diff ratios, is this related?

[Goatse.AJ]

OK, where to start???

A set of decent 30" muddies will do the trick in most terrain, really depends on what sort of driving you're going to be doing. YES, you will find that your low range gearing suffers on 31's, but I've seen Ferozas do some pretty amazing things in the right hands.

Running 30's will also mean you don't have to wind up the front end so much, and help retain at least some ride comfort. DON'T be tempted to simply crank 'em up as far as they'll go. You will have to remove your front mudflaps, even with 30's. I've shaved my lower bumpstops, and don't seem to have TOO many issues with droop travel, I seem to get maximum droop, but you CAN find up-travel is more limited due to the increased preload on the torsion bars.

One thing that WILL help to counteract some of the issues with gearing is a decent exhaust.... A 2" system and 4-2-1 extractors will give you a very noticeable increase in low end grunt.

GOOD tyres will be the best money you spend.

There are several options for the rear suspension, the cheapest being extended shackles, but these are illegal....

[meece4x4]

Thanks MightMouse!

\? Sorry about the questions, but why would people wind up the torsion bars to give more lift if it doesn't improve offroad capabilties?

Is there anyway to fix the gearing problems? I read about people changing diff ratios, is this related?

For the Wank factor it gives me


Ive got a 2 inch (well really about 1.5 inch now) lift on the front and rear of my F300, the lift improves my ground clearance slightly and to get back that droop loss I have shaved about 25mm (1 inch) off my bumpstops, DONT shave any more than this off them!!
The type of offroading I do (beach and mudplugging) the lift helps heaps.

Oh and for the Wank factor it gives me

im not into rock hopping so the slight loss of articulation in the front dosnt worry me too much.

As far as I know there is only ONE ratio (5.2* something, Mightymouse will know ) for the Mighty Fez, same with the transfer gears, only way to change them would be to adapt a Zook transfer case and use aftermarket gears in that.

im running 30's on mine (hankook RT01's) and have found the 30's to be about the best size for the Fez, dosnt drop the power that much gives an extra 3 inches over the factory 27's, Ive added a freeflow exhuast as well and by reducing the Fez by about 320kg to a mare 1300KG loaded helped in power and offroad ability.

[mrpham]

Thanks for the replies!

What are bumpstops? And are there any guides to do this? I tried searching on the forums but not much luck

I currently have a pod filter and can already feel the benefits, I've also read some things about removing the 'black box' on WARFS.org. But I guess the real gains will be had when I get the Genie extractors installed.

meece4x4:
What sort of things did you remove to reduce the weight? I've taken the back seats out and thats about it...

Also about the wheels, is better to get the 15x8 or the 15x10? The 15x8 has -23 offset and the 15x10 has -43 offset, so the inner guard clearance is the same for both.

[nebivedu]

My recomendations:
- 7X15 wheels
- 30 X 9.5 X 15 tyres (low range 5th gear and 7000 RPM - 100km/h)
- 5cm body lift - home made
- 6cm liftkit - Trailmaster (one leaf for each side)
- 6cm lifted front with winded torsion bars, and cutted rubber on arms for 2cm.
- instead of EFI put dual weber carbs(40/40) - 9000rpm vith F300 engine wihout a problem.


Has someone try to get torsion bars off and put some coil springs on?

[meece4x4]

Thanks for the replies!

What are bumpstops? And are there any guides to do this? I tried searching on the forums but not much luck


meece4x4:
What sort of things did you remove to reduce the weight? I've taken the back seats out and thats about it...

.

Kia Ora Mrpham
the bumpstops are little rubber stops at the top and bottom of your front suspension travel, have a look under the front of your fez and you will see them, they are there to stop the arms traveling too far downwards (or upwards) by shaving a touch off them it allows the arms to drop that extra few degrees, too much tho and you can cause problems.

Ok what i did to put my Fez on a diet.

ditch the hard top, rear glass and sunroof ----- replaced with custom made softtop. altho i do run the hardtop in winter.

replaced the steel rims with Zook alloys (50mm better offset each wheel the other bonus) the alloys weigh about 1/4 the weight of the steel rims.

rear seats, carpet, and unneeded trim. kept the rear roll bar though

removed the 16 000km of pipes leading to the aircleaner

most of my weight saving was in the rims and hardtop though.

[MightyMouse]

Front lift.... unlike a leaf or coil spring where you can space the spring ( one way or another ) to move the hub centre's ( lift ) away from the chassis its not possible with the torsion bar setup on the Feroza.

Say you have a total of 300mm travel total - stock that means 150 bump and 150mm droop. Winding the bars up means you might have 250mm bump and 50mm droop. Yes the vehicles raised but theres far less droop and this hurts.

Thats the flaw with raising the rear suspension - which is easyish to do, you have to raise the front to match and there's the problem. IMO body lift on a Feroza is a MUCH better way of clearing tyres with suspension being the final tune...

Unless a miracle has occurred there are NO diff or transfer ratios available. The diffs are 5.285:1 and the transfer ratio 1.7:1. The diffs actually aren't a bad ratio but a rear locker will cost a fortune ( $3000 unfitted )

For serious 4WDding, transfer ratios of >4:1 and up to 7:1 are popular so you can see the bind we are in. There are solutions - Sierra or Vitarra transfer cases but both of these are expensive and IMO big jobs.

nebivedu whilst coils have advantages ( progressive rate etc. ) the amount of travel is limited by the chassis / control arm / CV design. Without completely redesigning the front chassis / arms / cv's etc its not going to make ANY difference at all. In fact the only practical way to stick with the existing chassis design is longer arms / driveshafts and that's limited by the width of the vehicle - and is still a lot of work.

This is an area where widetrack Feroza's are worse than narrow, they use identical suspension with the chassis belled out so they have no more travel. On the other hand widening a narrow track by extending the control arms gives you the width AND extra lift AND extra travel

As for Webbers, not good for serious off road use - the Feroza ECU's not bad and if you have the urge to modify go aftermarket EFI. Have a look at the articles on trying to fix carby problems on zooks and how many of them convert to EFI.

Sorry about the long winded reply - but as you can probably tell, there's been lots of work done and its wise to take note of this.

[nebivedu]

My feroza is ELII with carb(63kW) (not EFI in basis). Even gasoline pump is mechanic and not electrical.

I got applause motor (105KM EFI), put exaust and intake from my feroza, exchanged 21/28 aisin carb with weber carb 32/36. Dyno shows 101KM (4600RPM) and 135Nm (3300RPM).



P.S.
(carb version - europas "speciality" to destroy all good things - if the price is not the same or lower as price for VW golf (jetta) then the car is not good - and carb version price was lower than price for VW golf - so here in europe is at least 30% carb versions, but at least 10% EFI verisons have LSD in rear diff - the price for rear diff with LSD is 300 euro (485AUD)).

[HotFourOk]

Thanks for the replies!
Also about the wheels, is better to get the 15x8 or the 15x10? The 15x8 has -23 offset and the 15x10 has -43 offset, so the inner guard clearance is the same for both.

I take it you are no longer getting 33" tyres, so with a 31x10.5" tyre a 8" rim is quite sufficient. I would never mount a 10.5" tyre on a 10" wide rim.

The -23mm offset rim will stick out WAY past your guards, and also make scrubbing issues on your guards much worse than stock rims would.

I have -23mm offset on a widetrack Rocky with the big flares, and the tyres are just level with the edge of the guard.

[Goatse.AJ]

Oh, and DITCH THE POD FILTER!!!!!

If you don't believe me, do some driving in dusty conditions and the dismantle your intake after the filter.... you'll prolly see a nice layer of fine dust in there = NOT good for your engine.

You CAN get slightly higher ratio diffs. The diffs from auto ferozas were a slightly higher ratio, but they're usually pretty hard to come by...

[mrpham]

I take it you are no longer getting 33" tyres, so with a 31x10.5" tyre a 8" rim is quite sufficient. I would never mount a 10.5" tyre on a 10" wide rim.

The -23mm offset rim will stick out WAY past your guards, and also make scrubbing issues on your guards much worse than stock rims would.

I have -23mm offset on a widetrack Rocky with the big flares, and the tyres are just level with the edge of the guard.

From all the advice the best bet would be 31" tyres for me and sitting on the 15x8 rims wil save me heaps of money. Getting the 15x8 King Wheels in black for $70 each, but I'll shop around a bit more to see if I can get them at a better price.

Because I have the narrow track, the 31x11.5" tyres on stock rims will scrape the inner wall. So I think the offset is needed. I think it wil, not 100% sure.

[mrpham]

Oh, and DITCH THE POD FILTER!!!!!

If you don't believe me, do some driving in dusty conditions and the dismantle your intake after the filter.... you'll prolly see a nice layer of fine dust in there = NOT good for your engine.

You CAN get slightly higher ratio diffs. The diffs from auto ferozas were a slightly higher ratio, but they're usually pretty hard to come by...

Are there any alternatives that will prevent dust entering but still offer better performance?

The one I currently have now looks like the K&N filter:
http://www.warfs.org/content/view/21/63/
http://www.warfs.org/images/stories/kn1.jpg

[MightyMouse]

You CAN get slightly higher ratio diffs. The diffs from auto ferozas were a slightly higher ratio, but they're usually pretty hard to come by...

Now that's a new on for me AJ, what ratio. I checked out an auto at a wrecker and it was 5.285:1 IIRC but there you go.....

[Goatse.AJ]

MMmmm, interesting. I know that Mike Hennessy, the original Feroza guru in Oz ran Auto R&P's in his with 31's. I always thought they ran a 5.57 (or thereabouts) ratio, but just checking on the spec sheet that came with mine from new, they quote 5.285

Maybe Troy, Rock_Monkey can help on this one???

[HotFourOk]

Getting the 15x8 King Wheels in black for $70 each, but I'll shop around a bit more to see if I can get them at a better price.

Because I have the narrow track, the 31x11.5" tyres on stock rims will scrape the inner wall. So I think the offset is needed. I think it wil, not 100% sure.

But -23mm will stick out a fair way mate.. King also do a -19mm I'm fairly sure? It's only 4mm a side, but seems to make a bit of difference.

I have them exact wheels... I got them for $65ea fitted and balanced, buying a set of 5.

[monmendoza]

I recently lifted my Feroza. I did a 2.5" bodu lift and a 1.5" suspension lift.
I installed a 32" MT tires. We did not do any fender trimming as the
lift was more than enough to accomodate even 33" tires.

For the suspension lift:
For the rear, we replaced the shackles with a longer one and replace the shocks with something longer. For the front we added a 1" spacer adaptor which is place in the A arm. This reduces the need to crank your torsion bars and allow easier camber and alignment correction.

Here is the picture of the A arm spacer to reduce the need for
maximum torsion bar cranking. With the spacer, we need to crank the
torsion bar by a very small amount only.


Here are some pictures of the Feroza



Hope this helps

[mrpham]

Thanks monmendoza!

What offset wheels did you use? And how wide are your tyres, just want an idea of what sort of space it takes up.


Cheers

[MightyMouse]

Very nice job - blocks are a MUCH MORE PROFESSIONAL solution than winding the bars up IMO.

How are your CV joint angles at full droop, how much angle is left ? - remove the top bumpstop to allow for the "worst" whilst checking

Check your clearances with the bump stop removed to simulate a hard landing - I'll be surprised if the firewall doesn't get a hit. If many 31's do it, unless they are VERY undersize 32's its worth checking.

[r0ck_m0nkey]

Maybe Troy, Rock_Monkey can help on this one???

No, i don't want to

Firstly you meant the auto has lower ratios, not higher. Remember the bigger the number the lower the ratio

Not that i can recall the ratio, but Auto Ferozas (maybe not all) did come with a slightly different ratio, almost impossible to get hold of but Mike did have a set and they were different to the normal 5.285:1

[MightyMouse]

Lower NUMERICAL ratio is not much use.. now if it was more

[r0ck_m0nkey]

Lower NUMERICAL ratio is not much use.. now if it was more

To save the confusion, they were a lower ratio, possibly something like 5.57:1 or there abouts as AJ said.

[MightyMouse]

You just added to it - 5.57 is a higher numerical ratio.

I can see that some research is required to sort this one out

[r0ck_m0nkey]

You just added to it - 5.57 is a higher numerical ratio.

But gearing wise it's lower.

[monmendoza]

Thanks monmendoza!
What offset wheels did you use? And how wide are your tyres, just want an idea of what sort of space it takes up.
Cheers

My tire size is 32"x10.5"xR15 and the wheels I think has a 20mm offset.
The tires are slightly outside the wheel well but it does not hit the fenders because of adequate clearance. I just ordered 50mm wheel spacers and will install them when they arrived. If it puts too much stress on the CV joint or bearings then I will remove them.

Very nice job - blocks are a MUCH MORE PROFESSIONAL solution than winding the bars up IMO.

How are your CV joint angles at full droop, how much angle is left ? - remove the top bumpstop to allow for the "worst" whilst checking

Check your clearances with the bump stop removed to simulate a hard landing - I'll be surprised if the firewall doesn't get a hit. If many 31's do it, unless they are VERY undersize 32's its worth checking.

Thanks you Mighty Mouse for the advise
The CV joint angles are okay but I have to replaced the bump stops as
most of them have very degraded rubber ( probably never been replaced since 1993) . clearances have not really change a lot even with the 32" tires installed.

The Torsion bar has been crank by a very small amount only mainly because of the A arm spacers and made camber and wheel alignment not so much of a problem. They still have to put 6 shims per wheel to correct the camber though.

I also plan to install a winch and Fozzy weld the front differentials.

[BajanFeroza]

This has been the most informative forum on suspension/body lifting.

Just wanted to say thanks. I now have some more ideas for raising the front. Fully wound up torsion bars is NOT the way to go. Now that block idea i like and i think i will raise the body 2".

Can someone tell me how do i get the back 2 bolts holding the body out that will be great.

[MightyMouse]

IIRC they are studs. Lock back to back nuts on them and wind them out. Replace with correct length bolts.

[BajanFeroza]

Thanks

[4x4xmore]

its been a while since I have visited this forum, feroza has been sold

Apparently excessive 4wding over difficult terrain with very little maintenance causes the chassis to twist....but it could have been my couldn't care less attitude whilst offroading.

This is what I had done to my roza and it worked for me, went alot of places... I had 31's and strongly recommend to stay with 30x9.5x15..

Not sure if mine was lifted or not when I bought it.....but definately do not get tough dog or HEAVY DUTY offroad springs..

* Get your originals reset to about 50mm

MY MODS-
15x7 F100 rims
30x9.5x15 M/T
removed rear bump stops
shaved front bump stops (upper and lower from memory)
removed sway bar
fitted commodore wagon rear shocks for increased travel

I had 31's with this setup and did not need a body lift and found that with its lenght and wheel base I never really got hung up anywhere on the sills.
With the F100 offset rims they did stick out by 5-10mm

This setup worked extremely well for me and had on occasions out driven locked patrols and landcruisers.

pics to prove...lol



























GEEZ I WILL MISS THAT OLD GIRL

This is what I bought to replace her with but can't do have the stuff the old roza could



I also did this a few times, so I welded the diffs towards the end







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