Outback Challange 2008

[1MadEngineer]

Wow, what a WILD week of competition.

Congratulations to Muppet & Al for taking out 1st place, you guys were definitely pushing us hard the whole time with similar results all week.

The level of competition that was out there was exceptionally high and we loved the pressure that was on us to perform well all week.

Thanks to all involved especially the Marshalls that put in many hours of their own time just for the love of the sport. You guys and gals rock.

The mud was excellent especially because it was kept sensible but still very challenging.
The sand is always fun and fast and we love going there. Try 20 points on Shifting sands next time Paul so it can be a challenge for us, Lol.
Nundooka, what a Wild property that is (Goat country with many holes just waiting to swallow a comp car) very tough and challenging.
Poolamaca, I've never seen such a big rock garden with no tracks and we had to go straight through the middle of them in the gorge run, now this was talk of the week with some of the biggest rocks ever encountered.

Awesome allround.

A Massive thankyou to Silver City 4WD (Dennis, Julie and Jonno) and all that are involved within the shop including Gouldy and Kenny for giving up their own time and putting off paying jobs for two weeks to help the competitors keep in the race. These guys have been involved from the start and always are there to help out. It's a shame they were not invited to the opening night and told to F#@K off at presentation by the Event organiser after everything they have done for the event.



I see there is quite a large debate happening about a tail shaft penalty we received. Here are the facts from our side of the fence.

We broke a front tailshaft in X-terain at Denian after flying off a caution that we did not see. It was there, we just didn't see it.
Normy also bent several parts on his front end after doing a six foot high jump in the same stage.
We asked the Competition area manager and Passage controller if we could take Norm's tailshaft and put it into our car due to the damage on both cars which was OK by both. We checked the Supplementary rules for the OBC 2008 which states;
Outside Assistance is assistance provided or organised by the Event Director through the Event Vehicle Support System, and attracts a 100 point penalty each time it is used.
Assistance, including the supply of spare parts or tools and consumables, by another competing Crew does not attract a penalty.

After looking up the dictionary to confirm the meaning of Assistance and also Including we believe we have complied to the rules 100%. It states that Including means it is not limited to the meaning of the words after it is used. If it were to state Assistance, comprising of the supply of spare parts etc then we could not do what we did.

We received a 100 point penalty and a Disqualification in the next stage where we came second so overall we received 195 penalty points.

Where in the rules does it state firstly the 100 points for what we did and secondly where does it state that we are to be disqualified from the next stage like we were. If we were to get outside assistance we would have perservered with the remainder of the days stages in two wheel drive and picked up a tailshaft in Broken Hill that night on our way through and not missed any stages and only would have recieved 100 penalty points.

We were told that if we were to protest the decision we would be instantly disqualified from the event.

We were visited by Paul Vanderhorst on Friday night with these allegations of cheating.
A protest was not officially lodged by anyone but an official complaint was lodged with HQ from a close competitor. We were told by Paul Vanderhorst that if a protest was not officially lodged with $500 then there was no problem and if it was lodged then it would have been brought to a panel of people for a decision to be made and we would be notified of the proceedings. We were greated on Saturday morning with the penalties already applied with no further discussion on our part could be entered into or we would be disqualified from the event.
The other thing that Paul Vanderhorst discussed with us on the Friday night he visited us was that if he was a competitor he would have done the same thing if he was competing. How's that for contradiction.

I hope that the CCDA gets wind of this and makes sure that Australian 4WD events run their events to the rules that have been issued to the competitors for the event and that they don't make up rules as they go.

Prize money also has not been issued due to a 21 day cooling period or something like that. Well what about Kym Boltons prizes from 3rd place last year that he still hasn't got. We only just recieved the last of our prizes from 2007 from continued pestering of Aus 4WD events. There are also plenty of prizes from previous years that have not been given but have been promised. I doubt very much that anyone will see any prize money for their efforts this year due to previous years patterns.

That is my thoughts.
Cheers
Todd.

PS. We still had a ball at OBC and can't wait for the far superior Cliffhanger..The event that was designed to be battled out on the race course while still having fun......See you all there.

A bit of advise!! once you had noticed a "discrepancy" you SHOULD have put in a protest "against yourself" due to the fact that you need to PAY money and they then have then a LEGAL obligation to abide by ALL rules. This whole matter is then consider a LEGAL CONTRACT and can be taken to a court of law and you can then really stick it to them if they are playing funny buggers with the points and $$$$'s. Organisors and officials should really take care in what they do, and if they do find faults then fix them and ADMITT the mistakes. There have been waaaaaaaay too many instances of organisors "medling" with results/scores in some of the QLD comps and it will come time when someone does take them to court over it!! and wind them up!!! its sad to see, but we would all like to know we are competing on a fair playing field!!!

[ballast]

After watching this sight for the last week it appears that the 10th OBC was a total success, congrats go out to all the competitors, supporters officials & sponsors.

Comment on what Todd has said over the outside assistance penalties:-

I would have imagined that the event committee would have gone by the written rules (in my opinion only). They would also have given all the teams concerned, the chance of reply in any formal protest. (This appears not to have happened, why?)


In saying that I would also back the event committee if they found out during the event any possible chance of outside assistance given, but all parties concerned still should have the chance to state their case against a possible penalty. (This appears not to have happened, why?)

Remember everyone has the right of appeal, don't they???????? (It appears not at the OBC)


If by chance a Team has put in a protest regards a possible penalty, I would think that everyone on this forum should support them in this action that they have taken. But I would think that any Team that required parts (even if parts were not used) in the same way as Todd & Ivan, should/would set the records straight and have the Event Committee set the finale scores as such.

After all everyone knows the rules (or should) and I am quite sure in this level of competition, any competitor would/should take the same action as what has happened.

If what has been said is true then the top 3 places would change and if this were the case it would now be:- 1st Blue Lightning 2nd The Coop Mobile and 3rd The Muppets.

It is up to the event organizer to have a set of rules that are clear and concise, not one that is open to all sorts of complications that have been ongoing for the last 10 years.

To make it a lot easier on outside assistance penalties, why not as some other events do, “If you do not carry the parts” you get a penalty. You must be self supportive and not rely on anyone else. By doing this you would stop anyone trying to get around the rules and stop all the bitching that goes on well after the OBC has been run.

I hope that the CCDA (being the Cross Country Drivers Assoc. and not Cross Country Event Organisers Assoc.) looks into these complaints and take whatever action needed.

Again congrats to all concerned for another action packed week and for the usual OBC dramas which will fill in more weeks that seem to occur after the event each year.

[Big-Fella4x4]

When I asked the question of double dipping on the penalties at 6.30 this morning I didn't think it would stir up so much emotion, and a big thankyou goes to The Fish and Ruffy for answering as best you could. It was much appreciated, now I am home from work.

This is such a big issue and so it should because it is a world renowned event but if Paul Vanderhaust and his committee do not come clean and set the records straight over the interpretations of the rules and the consequences of said rules then this event will start to slide downhill fast.

No-one wants this to happen so I and others would implore Paul to open up and fill us in on these proceedings. (but I won't hold my breath).

Hope we can all get some answers and decent rulings before more harm to peoples reputations is done over this.

Oh! and to be told if you protest the desicion you would be instantly disqualified.........where the hell are we the old mother RUSSIA....give us a break...................

Regards
Duncan

And thanks again Fish and Ruffy for your answers and updates photo's etc.

[The Fish]

If what has been said is true then the top 3 places would change and if this were the case it would now be:- 1st Blue Lightning 2nd The Coop Mobile and 3rd The Muppets.

To make it a lot easier on outside assistance penalties, why not as some other events do, “If you do not carry the parts” you get a penalty. You must be self supportive and not rely on anyone else. By doing this you would stop anyone trying to get around the rules and stop all the bitching that goes on well after the OBC has been run.

How do you figure the top 3 places you have stated??????? I didn't think Muppets would drop to 3rd if Todd/Ivan's penalty points were given back to them.

Agree with your comments about parts. If your not carrying a part you need then a penalty should apply. Build your truck and carry the parts to suit the nature of the competition.

I think there is a lot more to the story that people are letting on It would be good to have the whole story so everyone was clear about the whole situation.

The Fish

[2dextreme]

If what has been said is true then the top 3 places would change and if this were the case it would now be:- 1st Blue Lightning 2nd The Coop Mobile and 3rd The Muppets.

To make it a lot easier on outside assistance penalties, why not as some other events do, “If you do not carry the parts” you get a penalty. You must be self supportive and not rely on anyone else. By doing this you would stop anyone trying to get around the rules and stop all the bitching that goes on well after the OBC has been run.

How do you figure the top 3 places you have stated??????? I didn't think Muppet's would drop to 3rd if Todd/Ivan's penalty points were given back to them.
I think what Ballast means is that Muppet should be given the 100 point penalty as well as they should loss the points for the next stage like what happened to Todd and Ivan which would make Todd/Ivan !st Cooper/Hummer 2nd and Muppet's 3rd
Dale

The Fish

[ballast]

If what has been said is true then the top 3 places would change and if this were the case it would now be:- 1st Blue Lightning 2nd The Coop Mobile and 3rd The Muppets.

To make it a lot easier on outside assistance penalties, why not as some other events do, “If you do not carry the parts” you get a penalty. You must be self supportive and not rely on anyone else. By doing this you would stop anyone trying to get around the rules and stop all the bitching that goes on well after the OBC has been run.

How do you figure the top 3 places you have stated??????? I didn't think Muppets would drop to 3rd if Todd/Ivan's penalty points were given back to them.

no you would not give any points back , but follow rules regards parts -outside assitance penalties.

and if what has been said about parts given (this only works if this true)you wold take the ss score after the parts were put in vehicle (possible first place)100pnts add 100pnts for outside assistance giving 200pnts to take off there muppetts score.

final scores could have looked like this
1st blue lightning 1920
2nd the coop moble 1898
3rd muppetts 1879

this is all a make believe repley or if this happened but it did not.


the best thing that can be done now is leave it to OBC COMMITTEE & CCDA to sort out.

[discostu]

hi all, attached are a few pics from wednesday through saturday following group d. some of my pics from saturday through tuesday have been posted by alberto on one of the previous pages, and some others are up on the arb capalaba website.

if anyone is after any (i have another 2300 or so pics from the week), just send me a pm.

cheers

stu

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[2dextreme]

Some great shot there Stu. Makes me feel like i was there.
Cheers Dale

[cebarry]

I have to make a special mention and huge congrats to all the SOUTH AFRICAN teams....who did so well

7th Car 28 Terence & Jacque
9th Car 29 Warner & Chris (even with a complete engine swop)
2nd Trophy Class (17th o/a)Car 39 Dennis & Dave
7th Trophy (44th o/a) Peter & Ted

Also the NSW TEAMS from SYDNEY & TRAC4 CLUB

8th Car 19 Max & Cosmo
14th Car 50 Shane & Jack
16th Car 40 Steven & Steve
21st Car 41 Mal & James
4th Trophy (26tho/a) Car 9 Celia & Eugene
29th Car 10 Paul & Guy
31st Car 26 Laurie & Gary who had huge repairs but still managed a placing in 2 s.stages
37th Car 46 Michael & Mike

[TEE JAY]

So what tyres prvailed this year as the chosen ones?
Lots of simex et's and Trepadores too. Those who ran the new bfg what did you think of them?

[moose]

I have to make a special mention and huge congrats to all the SOUTH AFRICAN teams....who did so well


9th Car 29 Warner & Chris (even with a complete engine swop)

herad he liked the power of the 6.0 !!!

[MUD EMPIRE]

So what tyres prvailed this year as the chosen ones?
Lots of simex et's and Trepadores too

good mix of brands in the top ten finishers............

1. Simex
2. BFG
3. Simex
4. Maxxis
5. Maxxis
6. ProComp
7. GoodYear
8. Simex
9. Cooper
10. Mickey T

[cebarry]

I have to make a special mention and huge congrats to all the SOUTH AFRICAN teams....who did so well


9th Car 29 Warner & Chris (even with a complete engine swop)

herad he liked the power of the 6.0 !!!

Warner's Prado, Car 29 proved tops and def. a truck to beat had they not had to replace the entire engine mid week...an amazing feat in itself.
They were in our Group B and extremely impressive in/on all the stages they did. G8 humble guys too.

[Harb]

Sad to hear all the controversy over the results.......

I am currently building an OBC truck and hope this all sorts itself quickly.
After many years of motor sport Here and overseas I can tell you, none of this is good for the OBC which is quiet an international event nowadays.

It seems the rules are quite open to interpretation, which is bad also.
If the rules are not clear and an advantage can be gained from pushing the envelope with that "loophole" then so be it.... its part of competitive motor sport is about...... races can be won and lost in the pits so to speak.
I have been involved in races where hundreds of thousands of dollars have ridden on the outcome of a technical ruling similar to here

Reading this, it is very confusing without having been there, but what is needed to clear the air for all competitors and future ones, is an explanation of the reason for the penalty in a clear laid out fashion and the reason that the way many of us are reading it doesn't come up with the same result .

I hope that it is fourth coming, or it will make it very hard to compete if the rules are "flexible" one way, but not the other.

Looking forward to the end result here.........And I am sure they will be one

Harb

[taps]

Hey Harb, how did you go with that truck you spoke to me about ????

[Harb]

PM sent...........

[Kane]

Any chance of getting picks and details of the top 10 trucks, not shore what most of them are-
Cheers, Kane.

[cebarry]

Maybe this will help...................


Placing Car No. Team Vehicle Points Class

1 5 Adrian Parker Alan McGilvray 2079 C
2 1 Todd Robards Ivan Vella Nissan Patrol 1902 C
3 7 Neil Cooper Chris Hummer Toyota Hilux 1898 C
4 38 Peter Mihailoff Andrew Cassar Nissan GQ 1733 C
5 4 Darren Green Steven Hudson Nissan Patrol 1723 C
6 25 Alan McMullen Shane Barkley Jeep Wrangler 1626 C
7 28 Terence Reinders Jacques Viljoen Toyota Hilux 1607 C
8 19 Max Bearlocher Cosmo Jeep Wrangler 1455 C
9 29 Warner Trimmer Chris Ingram Toyota Prado 1437 C
10 21 Jeff Redman Jason Forrsman Nissan GQ 1428 C

1st Trophy 14 Peter Von Pein Jane Von Pein Nissan GQ 1417 T
12 43 Brett Chenowyth Rob Barton Nissan Patrol 1406 C
13 51 Steve Fowler Rodney Hodge Range Rover 1378 C
14 50 Shane Kilmurray Jack Talbot Ford Maverick 1334 C
15 16 Bill Tsaousis Wally Shorney Nissan GQ 1289 C
16 40 Steven Quinn Stephen Rose Ford Maverick 1268 C
2nd Trophy 30 Dennis Maytom Dave Ratcliffe swb Nissan 1262 T
18 39 Troy Crimmins Mike Bryant Nissan Patrol 1227 C
19 6 Adam Bird Kevin Nott Nissan GQ 1200 C
20 22 Nuncio Coffaro Arvid Peralta Toyota A Series 1115 C
21 41 Malcolm Graham James Cary Range Rover 1084 C
22 2 Kym Bolton Robert Marks Nissan Patrol 1025 C
23 18 Nick Mannell Torben Hansen Ford Maverick 1010 C
3rd Trophy 42 Tony Bright John Clemens Nissan GQ 999 C
24 52 Norm Walters Clay Mongan Nissan GQ 974 T
25 32 Dave White Pam White Landrover S1 963 C
4th Trophy 9 Celia Barry Eugene Barry LWB Nissan 932 T
27 24 Rohan Canavan Wayne Smith Nissan GQ 929 C
28 47 Johnnie Stavrou Andrew Dyer Jeep Wrangler 865 C
29 10 Paul Gambell Guy Holt Toyota@ Series 800 C
30 33 Neil Redpath Elis Flemming Ibex 797 C
31 26 Laurie Griffiths Gary Osborne Bushranger 702 C
32 45 Anthony Kilner Nathan Hastings Nissan GQ 671 C
33 20 Alan Mai Warren Cleland Nissan GQ 667 C
34 17 Greg Scanlon Robbie Calvert Nissan GQ 641 C
35 55 Simmo Wayne Jackson Toyota Hilux 620 C
36 35 Jeanette Garcia Pedro Espinosa Jeep 536 C
37 46 Micheal Hingerty Mike Burns Nissan Patrol 532 C
38 11 Allen Reynolds Jason Davies Nissan GQ 518 C
39 34 Gary Smith John Riley Range Rover 451 C
5th Trophy 49 Gary Rayment Paul Creten 353 T
40 8 Brett Burns James Simmons Suzuki Stockman 206 C
41 48 David Davies Darren Stevens Nissan GQ 187 C
6th Trophy 37 Arek Witczak Michael Ginter Suzuki Jimny 150 T
43 12 Ian Paltridge Heath Lawson Nissan Patrol 132 C
7th trophy 31 Peter Sherlock Ted Separovic Mercedes 49 T
45 15 Tim Margitich Tom Margitich Range Rover 28 C
46 27 Barry Packer Sue Packer Toyota FJ40 17 C

[turps]

Some pics I took of the week. Theres still a couple of dodgy ones though.

http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/T ... mview=grid

[sootygu]

With the controversy last year re the Thai teams vehicles and this years it must not give competitors the greatest of comfort regarding rules going into next year.

[Britswed]

Some pics I took of the week. Theres still a couple of dodgy ones though.

http://s93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/T ... mview=grid

some cool pics there mate thanks for that

Mal

[tom_286]

Thanks for your detailed side of the story Todd, very poor form for them to say dont protest or you will be disqualified, shit way to come 2nd. But if someone from Aus 4wd Events can justify why you copped the penalty then the right thing has been done. Untill then though I'm sure many people will have little confidence in the organisers.

Clear & easy to understand rules and correct inforcment of them is something all events in general need to look closly at. A recent DVD of a differant event shows some teams breaking the rules, yet the score sheet shows no penalty. Its not just OBC where this happens, manegment of the sport in general has to lift its game.

[WOZ]

To the organizers of the OBC... PLEASE EXPLAIN.... This has the potential to really damage the sport in the eyes of future competitors and spectators. Transparency and consistancy is essential. Protest and be disqualified???? Last time i checked Australia was a democracy not a facist state! Just my 2 cents worth. Woz.

[Strange Rover]

I think everybody here needs to settle down a bit. I carnt imagine Paul Vanderhorst is going to come on here and try to explain what happened cause all you guys would just cut him to threads. A PUBLIC internet forum is not the place for these sorts of discussions...to thrash it out here publicly does absolutely nobody any good at all.


BUT....since nobody here is defending the organisers I will just throw a few observations out there based on the account Blue Lightning gave....

There was never any official protest - not by anyone. The organisers made a ruling of how they understood the situation and applied penalties as they saw fit....END OF STORY.

Now if Blue Lightning thought he was penalised incorrectly then he needed to pony up his $500 and lodge an official protest...but he didnt...END OF STORY.

If Blue Lightning believed that he was told that he would be disqualified if he protested then I would suggest that he misunderstood what he was told, or he took what he was told out of context, or he was told incorrect information or at the time he didnt understand how the official protest procedure worked (where as he obviously understands it now as he described in his post - "if it was lodged then it would have been brought to a panel of people for a decision to be made and we would be notified of the proceedings") I carnt imagine anybody with this understanding of the rules could be led to believe that if you protest then your out.

And as a disclaimer - I have no idea of what happened, I dont know any of the people involved personally, I have only followed this thread the last few pages.

But, at the end of the day, trying to thrash this out here on a public forum doesent do anybody any good at all...so try to play nice...its very hard for an event organiser to defend themselves on these forums.

Sam

[gouldy]

I think everybody here needs to settle down a bit. I carnt imagine Paul Vanderhorst is going to come on here and try to explain what happened cause all you guys would just cut him to threads. A PUBLIC internet forum is not the place for these sorts of discussions...to thrash it out here publicly does absolutely nobody any good at all.


BUT....since nobody here is defending the organisers I will just throw a few observations out there based on the account Blue Lightning gave....

There was never any official protest - not by anyone. The organisers made a ruling of how they understood the situation and applied penalties as they saw fit....END OF STORY.

Now if Blue Lightning thought he was penalised incorrectly then he needed to pony up his $500 and lodge an official protest...but he didnt...END OF STORY.

If Blue Lightning believed that he was told that he would be disqualified if he protested then I would suggest that he misunderstood what he was told, or he took what he was told out of context, or he was told incorrect information or at the time he didnt understand how the official protest procedure worked (where as he obviously understands it now as he described in his post - "if it was lodged then it would have been brought to a panel of people for a decision to be made and we would be notified of the proceedings") I carnt imagine anybody with this understanding of the rules could be led to believe that if you protest then your out.

And as a disclaimer - I have no idea of what happened, I dont know any of the people involved personally, I have only followed this thread the last few pages.

But, at the end of the day, trying to thrash this out here on a public forum doesent do anybody any good at all...so try to play nice...its very hard for an event organiser to defend themselves on these forums.

Sam

If you have no idea what happened, then how do you know that Blue Lightning didn't pony up his $500. I don't recall reading that in his statement. But as you said you have no idea of what happened.

[turps]

Far out. Let it go. If Bluelightning is done with it. Issue is done. No need for more internet crap.

Todd no offence mate but. Muppets car sounded crap loads better. It dosent matter you beat him by 10sec in the Mud night stage cos he girlied it into the water.

[Harb]

I'd be happy for the organizers to explain on the OBC website if they like.... don't care where they explain, as long as they do........ it would just clear the air thats all.
It will make next years planing easier if we all understand the rules fully as applied by the organizers.

I'll keep my eye on their site...... I am sure it will come

[Davidh]

I'd be happy for the organizers to explain on the OBC website if they like.... don't care where they explain, as long as they do........ it would just clear the air thats all.
It will make next years planing easier if we all understand the rules fully as applied by the organizers.

I'll keep my eye on their site...... I am sure it will come

Haha... yeah. And maybe they can also explain how the Thai teams passed scrutineering last year!

Pigs = Flying

[Harb]

its ok, I have a really big hat.....

[tuf355]

I AM SURE IT WILL COME UP AT THE ccda MEETING AND THEN WE WILL SEE IF THEY CAN COME UP WITH SOME ANSWERS !!!
P.S i just hope if P.V ever needs a spare front tail shaft he ASKS todd if he has a spare !