where to start on a buildup

[RockHopper]

Hi guy's.
Know a bit about modding Patrols, but nothing about Sierra's. Anyway just sold my gq Patrol with 6" lift and bought a rock stock 92 Sierra, as I could no longer afford to run the Patrol with petrol prices being the way they are. What I want to do is build a car that is every bit as capable off road as my Patrol was. The Sierra won't be my everyday driver as I have a company van for work, but I'd like to take the wife and 1 year old out in it on the weekends. My plans are to budget a little bit away each week so I can modify the Zook slowly but surely to a very capable little machine.
Not entirely sure where to start, but was thinking in this order of starting with a 3" bodylift. Then some rockhopper gears for the transfer case and 32" rubber. This is where I'm at a sticking point. I'm not sure wether to go over or under with the spring lift. What do you guys think? Last bot not least, I've been led to believe that the Suzuki Vitara injected motor is the best and easiest option for a transplant. Is this true??
Any constructive input is much appreciated and if there is anything else I should look at modifying please let me know.
Cheers

[nicbeer]

yes G16B mpfi vit motor would be best for $$ and easiest transplant.

hoppers and 32s ok.

2" max BL. over gets too complicated.

what terrain do u want to wheel? and what state?

[RockHopper]

Reasonably rough rock and dirt terrain. I'm in nsw and I'd like to go to the same places I was taking the gq, as in Menai, Appin and around ZigZag out Lithgow way.

[joeblow]

i'd go diff gears...but thats me.....

[want33s]

2" Spring (& shock) lift set. $650-$800. Then remove the bottom 1 or 2 leaves to soften it up and gain flex.
1" or 2" bumpstop extensions. $0 upto $?
2" Body lift. $200
Crawler gears $600 plus delivery.
Tyres up to $1000 or so.
Weld, Spool, Lockrite or ARB locker $110 - $1100.

I'd do it in that order.
Jas.

[Spike_Sierra]

i'd go diff gears...but thats me.....

i keep wondering why you suggest this joe. I see how it can reduce load but for the expense of supplying and fitting it doesnt seem reasonable, let alone they dont give that extra low gearing that tcase gears do.

Can you set me and the threadstarter on the right direction so he can choose between the two.

And rockhopper, you sound exactly like Dee off this forum, he recently sold his gu pootrol and bought a zook, have a look for this buildup in the members section as i feel that its exactly what you are looking for.

I suggest, 2 inch body, spring lift, tcase gears, big hammer and 32s and most importantly some form of rear cage to keep the little one safe.

[MUD-PIGSIERRA]

What I want to do is build a car that is every bit as capable off road as my Patrol was.

Well you have bought the Sierra so your ahead all ready.....

I would steer away from body lift if you could, go for the transfer gears lockers front back and some suspension lift.

Get your suspension and gearing then do your bigger tires and mod panels as you find where they rub after playing with bump stops. Then get your lockers sorted, as much as they really make a big difference Zooks still do pretty well unlocked.

[Pezooki]

What they said ^^^^^^ ... It all depends on what you wish to end up with at the end of the day, but from what you have said, I agree with want33s and spikes recommendations. (I have a 2" body lift and I like it, but each to their own!)

cheers,

Pez

[Pezooki]

Hey Gwagensteve, perhaps you could 'copy and paste' your "First steps to an off-road worthy sierra" write-up here??? I recon that is a very good starting point!

Cheers,

Pez

[muz_ook]

i'd go diff gears...but thats me.....

id go transfer gears, easier, maybe cheaper, makes the car so much easier/better to drive offroad,great crawl(you wont get that wth diff gears)can run 31's/32's nicely....in my opinion the best choice for your driving(playin in rocks)

Muz.

[RockHopper]

Thanx guys for all your replies.They've all been very useful. Want33s & Spike_Sierra suggestions both sound like a very good starting point (offroad ability wise and affordability wise). I've decided to go sprung under after seeing the photo's of Dee's machine in the members section. Having been used to a coil sprung machine for all these years, I had no idea that you could obtain that sort of articulation from a leaf sprung suspension. Now I'm just hanging to pick the zook up on Friday, so I can start playing with it

[Goatse.AJ]

First thing I'd be doing is making sure your 1 yo is as safe as humanly possible when you're wheeling.

You don't seem to mention whether it's a softtop or hardtop? I wouldn't be wheelin' much more extreme than the local McDonalds carpark with such a young kid in the back of a Zook.

[want33s]

First thing I'd be doing is making sure your 1 yo is as safe as humanly possible when you're wheeling.

You don't seem to mention whether it's a softtop or hardtop? I wouldn't be wheelin' much more extreme than the local McDonalds carpark with such a young kid in the back of a Zook.

That was my first thought too.
But
As a parent that is your responsibility and I'm confident also your priority.
You will soon learn that a SWB Zook is just as comfortable laying on it's side as it is standing on all fours.
Jas

[Dee]

You will soon learn that a SWB Zook is just as comfortable laying on it's side as it is standing on all fours.

didnt take me long

[RockHopper]

First thing I'd be doing is making sure your 1 yo is as safe as humanly possible when you're wheeling.

You don't seem to mention whether it's a softtop or hardtop? I wouldn't be wheelin' much more extreme than the local McDonalds carpark with such a young kid in the back of a Zook.

Zook is a hardtop. Sorry I did'nt explain myself better, but I won't be wheelin with the little one or the missus (as it scares the crap out of her). Was just wanting to occasionally use it as the family car to visit the parents and such, as the wifes car is a V6 and has to run on Premium unleaded and I felt it would be a little cheaper to use the Zook. I choose the hardtop for a couple of reasons. I feel a little more comfortable driving offroad with a roof over my head, even though the metal on a Sierra is not that strong and probably wouldn't make a hell of a differance, and call me a Hmm, but I could'nt do without my aircon in the middle of summer. Sure beats getting the back of my neck sunburnt

[want33s]

Yeah Dee, I remember your first fallover. "forwards, forwards , forwards, backwards crunch".

RH,
You will probably live to regret buying a hardtop..
The first time it falls over there will be panel damage to parts of the car that soft-tops just don't have..

After you've squashed it, keep the A/C and fit it to a soft top body with a fibreglass roof/canopy.
Jas

[Dee]

my mate who i wheel with has a tintop, and just bought a stocker soft-top to do a body swap for this very reason.

a tintops probably a bit more practical for around town/with the kid etc though.

[alien]

GO have a chat to an engineer about everything everyones suggested, see what you can legally do as well - if the zuk aint legal, and you crash into someone, all insurance is void!!! and nevermind if you get a yellow or red sticker...

A sierra also is prolly not an ideal choice for a really young kid - theyre not exactly renowned for comfort or safety =P hehe

if i was building it for what you describe, i'd start with 2" spring lift, bash the guards and run 29's... wheel the crap out of it and then decide where you want to go from there... a zuk with 2" springs and 29's will go nearly anywhere, and you wont have to really worry about gearing.

The reason i say this, is your driving style will change between the patrol and a zuk... better to find out how you drive the zuk before modding it and possibly modding it against what you want to do...

[GRPABT1]

^^^Very good advice^^^ a zook is a completely different animal to a pootrol. My mates patrol can go about 50% of the places I can but My zook can go about 90% of the places he can, that 10% is when lack of wheelbase comes into play.

[DeWsE]

I don’t understand the advice given reguarding buying lifted springs, when in actual fact the only thing that will do is have more arc which means it’s going to be stiffer. Then the recommendation is to remove some leaves to help them soften up which in affect means loose some arch (lift) so they are useable. So why would you buy lifted springs?

On top of this, affectively you haven’t gained any tire clearance either because the bumpstop is still in the same position so the diff can still come up to the standard position (Probably not coz the spring is stiff) and rub the top of the guard.

I realize to over come this you have then increased the bumpstop by an inch, maybe two, effectively reducing the up travel which gives you less overall travel and a taller stiffer unstable rig. And if you measured the distance between the new bumpstop and the diff with lifted springs you will have the same distance, unless you removed the leaves and lowered it, giving you less over stock.

To fully understand a leaf spring and the advantage of flex you need to recognize a few things.

First the amount of flex can be measure by the length of the spring and length of shackle. The longer the spring the more it can bend down in an arch which gives more down travel. Keep in mind at this point that a flatter spring has more distance to travel over a spring with a pre existing arch. The shackle length will also increase this, but be careful with this as it reduced the stability through out the spring motion and increase the castor angle.

Secondly is the spring location regarding under or over. The advantages of over means that you have greater lift to fit bigger meat and it will also impose greater leverage against a spring which will hopefully increase the amount of travel as it will take the spring to it’s maximum arch or at least you can have a slightly stiffer more stable spring which is predictable. But over may be a bit to much lift and this is all a matter of opinion as some will say it’s useless to have the meat without sufficient underbelly clearance. Menie is rocky outcrops with large ledges, so this may affect you. The NSW crew seem to prefer the SPOA option as opposed to the Spring under.

The third, which won’t matter to you, is the location of the spring mounted to the diff. A NT is closer to centre so it will have greater leverage like a SPOA situation, but will have less stability as they are mounted closer together. Think of a table with the legs in the middle if you have to, as opposed to one with the legs on the outside.

In my opinion lifting guards and increasing spring length is the ultimate way to increase flew/ meat and stability. But lifting the rear guards in your instance will be hard as I assume you are going to keep the rear seat in. Unless you get a single seat mounted in the centre for your kid, then you can move the guards with less work.

If SPOA is the option you choose remember that increasing spring length will also still increase the flex, not to mention comfort of ride and extended wheel base.

Good luck

Ps. First thing first, put a cage around the young fella

[DeWsE]

GO have a chat to an engineer about everything everyones suggested, see what you can legally do as well - if the zuk aint legal, and you crash into someone, all insurance is void!!! and nevermind if you get a yellow or red sticker...

A sierra also is prolly not an ideal choice for a really young kid - theyre not exactly renowned for comfort or safety =P hehe

if i was building it for what you describe, i'd start with 2" spring lift, bash the guards and run 29's... wheel the crap out of it and then decide where you want to go from there... a zuk with 2" springs and 29's will go nearly anywhere, and you wont have to really worry about gearing.

The reason i say this, is your driving style will change between the patrol and a zuk... better to find out how you drive the zuk before modding it and possibly modding it against what you want to do...

Go wheel Menie and you might realize 29's are pretty useless...

[Pezooki]

I don’t understand the advice given reguarding buying lifted springs, when in actual fact the only thing that will do is have more arc which means it’s going to be stiffer. Then the recommendation is to remove some leaves to help them soften up which in affect means loose some arch (lift) so they are useable. So why would you buy lifted springs?

Just one comment on this: When I bought my zook it all ready had 2" king springs (SUZ-002 and SUZ-006 I think). They were crap. No flex, hard as rock. It was terrible to drive. I removed leaves from my packs and found a heap more flex and heaps more comfort. The amount of lift that I lost when I removed the leaves was minimal (i.e., I still have around 2" of spring lift, with a decent ride). I have given them a hard time and are standing up to it well.

Just to be clear, I am not arguing anything you have said, just letting you know about my experience with lifted springs...

Cheers,

Pez

[DeWsE]

Don't worry i don't see it as an argument, and i think your rig is cool. The thing is you didn't waste money on new spring as they came with the car. I think alot of new people rush in and spend money ill educated... I'm not saying new springs are wrong, just that it should be thought out first.

In west Australia everyone builds with double brick, a better method would be with reverse brick varneer.. So why does everyone build with double brick then? Because it's the marketed way, it's the accepted way. Not the right way..

[MUD-PIGSIERRA]

SPOA axle is pretty cool though if its done correctly that way you can use the original flat springs and you end up with a far better ride. Add in some better shocks or have extended shock mounts for far greater down travel. Buy then doing this though you open a can of worms on amount of money you end up spending too.... .. My first SPOA Sierra was a WT soft top heaps of fun, though always got wet, sunburnt, cold, covered in mud, things stolen, and couldn't leave the face plate CD's or any recovery gear in it as it would be taken. It wasn't locked or geared but it was still very capable with 31"s. The WT never had a track bar and only run the standard springs never 'S' my springs but again it did far more mud style terrain thats not to say I went easy on it either. My new older Sierra is a NT with WT running gear geared and locked only slightly more capable but it does things so much easier and slower and so less chance of braking things or I'll im going really slow when it tips over. Its a hard top and so I can safely store things in it now, each to their own, but its a Sierra Im not to worried about dents and creases or scratches.

If I was to build again I would still go SPOA but I would have no body lift and be cutting guards and running bigger tires than 31's though.

[Guy]

Don't worry i don't see it as an argument, and i think your rig is cool. The thing is you didn't waste money on new spring as they came with the car. I think alot of new people rush in and spend money ill educated... I'm not saying new springs are wrong, just that it should be thought out first.

In west Australia everyone builds with double brick, a better method would be with reverse brick varneer.. So why does everyone build with double brick then? Because it's the marketed way, it's the accepted way. Not the right way..

Usually the lifted springs have a greater free length, allowing for more droop than stock.

[RockHopper]

Thanx guy's. Using all the information I've been able to take in on this thread, and other threads I've been reading, and also by talking to some 4wd nuts and reps, I've think I've been able to devise a plan of attack.
I'm going to start with a 3" spua lift and a 2" shackle reversal kit, with shocks and bumpstops etc to suit. I'm going to steer away from the bodylift as I put a bodylift in my first Patrol and wasn't real happy with it. Next step is to pull the transfer case down and put a set of rockcrawler gears in it. Then the 32" rubber. Next a bullbar and rock slides. Will either try and fab something myself or find somebody to do it, because I think it'll be much cheaper than commercially available ARB bullbar. Last but not least, find myself a decent 1.6 mpfi Vitara motor with computer and wiring harness for a heart transplant, and of course have the whole thing engineered. That will pretty much do it for me, but I may fit an arb locker down the track if I can pick one up for the right price.
By my calculations, including the price of the car itself, but not including the motor or the engineering (as I've got no idea what they are worth yet), it should cost me a tad over $7000 which I think isn't too bad a figure for what I think will be a pretty decent offroader. Of course I won't be doing it all at once, because my wife will cut my nuts off, but over the course of around 12 - 18 months, I should get most of it done. Will keep you posted.

[Gwagensteve]

Here's the "first steps to an offroad worthy sierra" post from the Vic suzuki club page:



Its easy to look at photos of heavily modified, large tyred cars and really want to build a radical car, but everyone starts somewhere and its important to get the first step heading the right way.

Before you go off road for the first time, here's the stuff to do/check:

Fit diff breathers. There are cheap/easy and expensive/hard ways. Remember that the environment under your car is harsh, fuel line or trans cooler line is the best hose to use. Garden hose or other PVC stuff will have a short life and a busted breather is worse than no breather at all. Here's some threads from outers.

http://carl.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic.php?t=127110
http://carl.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic.php?t=99469

The transfer can be done too but is a bit more involved - best done with the transfer apart.

Make sure your charging system works, you have a good battery clamp (it's well tied down) and solid terminals. I really like projecta brand satin brass-

http://www.projecta.com.au/catalogue/cid/50/asset_id/80

If your battery is stuffed, save some money up and buy the finest battery money can buy, an Optima. This will give you years and years of reliable service, and fits in a sierra tray without too much hassle.

If you alternator is stuffed, look to the Ford EL 100A upgrade, info here: http://carl.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic.php?t=79826 It is an excellent conversion, and cheaper than a reco Sierra alternator (with 1/2 the output)

If you're having trouble getting your starter to pull in, look at the starter relay upgrade, an easy DIY project.:

http://suzuki.off-road.com/suzuki/artic ... ?id=277618

Make sure the free wheeling hubs engage. To check this, put the car in 4WD and in gear, and jack up ONE front wheel. It should spin with the hubs in free. put the hub into "Lock" and the wheel should NOT spin freely.

Remember to buy a snatch strap, 2X 3.25 tonne rated shackles, a first aid kit and a fire extinguisher, and keep them handy. (especially the fire extinguisher - it must be able to be reached from the driver's seat, regardless of what's in the car or what angle it's on. If you need it, it will ALWAYS be in a hurry.


Speaking of fuel, so to speak, it seems that most sierras are getting to an age where the fuel system is giving trouble. Ihave seen lots of fuel pumps in cars from 89-91 starting to pack up, filters clogged and hoses starting to split. As the fuel pumps fail, they will work fine on the flat but the car will stall out badly and not restart on big hills. On almost any old/unknown sierra, I'd replace the fuel pump ( don't go electric, just a new stock one), lines throughout, (only a few dollars) and filter.

If you car doesn't have a fan shroud (many get discarded as they make a fan belt change hard) try and get hold of one from Suziworld or another wrecker source. A shroud will be the difference between an overheating sierra and a happy sierra off road.

As you can see, none of this is the glamour stuff, but a reliable car you can depend on to keep working is far more important than the big tyres or spot lights... or whatever.

NOW to the modifications.

First up, remove the front antisway bar and see how you like the handling. If you like it, leave it off, it will make the car work much better off road.

Lock the rear diff, however you can afford. Most expensive is the ARB airlocker (up to $1800 fitted, full retail) the cheapest is to weld your existing diff, but this is illegal and has some drawbacks.

Fit a 2" Body lift from Justcruzin' on outerlimits: http://carl.outerlimits4x4.com/viewtopic.php?t=135423 You'll want one eventually and everything else gets easier once you fit one.

Now you can look at gearing and tyres.

Personally, I'd look to 15X7" Speedy rims and 31 10.5 tyres such as MTZ's, Cooper STTs, Goodyear MTR's or similar.

As for gearing, go straight into the transfer case, and go fir transfer gears from any of the major US suppliers - Lowrange offroad, Trail Gear, Trail Tough. If you never want to go beyond 31's, maybe 4.9's or similar will be fine, but many of us have gone to 6.4's or something would be the go.

Set up like this, you'll have the best "bang for your buck" able to drive right up to hard trips, but still have a useful daily driver.

Note, I haven't mentioned suspension at all. In all honesty, suspension work can be a fair minefield but as laid out above, it won't add much capability, only add comfort. That doesn't mean it's a bad idea, only that it's complex and won't get you further or on more trips.

Just some thoughts. Hope it helps some prospective members.

Steve.

[Gwagensteve]

And here's my take on what you're planning Rockhopper:

Personally, I think you're planning on doing things a bit around the wrong way. There's precisely ONE guy on here who is happy with his Calmini 5" kit, and even he (GRPABT1) ordered the soft springs and has subsequently taken leaves out.

I've built a shackle reverse, once. I don't think it's an advantage overall.

3" springs only ride properly on sierras when leaves are pulled out so they only have 2" of lift.

I wouldn't build a sierra without a 2" Body lift. EVERYTHING (including every maintenance job, and the 1.6 conversion) gets easier with the body lift and a car with 100% stock suspension and a 2" BL will fit 31 10.5's with no problems. End result is that a 2" BL and 2" suspension will fit the same size (or bigger!) tyre than a 5" all suspension lift and have a lower overall centre of gravity.

Sierra's are nice to BL at least partially because the radiator is mounted to the chassis not the body so none of that changes- something that's a big problem with most other cars.

If you want a really capable, balanced and strong car, and have $7K, proceed as follows:

Mini spool rear (sure, airlocker if you do lots of daily driving)
Rear airlocker in front
26 spline front axles
2" BL
31/32" tyres to suit your terrain.
6:5 transfer gears.

No other money you spend on the car will add as much to it's capability as the stuff above (especially the lockers). Nothing. Yes, more power is nice, but with the setup above, it'll make almost no difference to where you can go, only that you'll do it a bit easier with more power. Likewise, suspension will make the car look more credible and be more comfortable, but it won't actually get you further once you've got tyres, lockers, and gears. (yes, really)

Bar work, sliders, and all that suspension work won't add any capability if you're on a budget.

that's why I like the BL, as it gets the tyres on the car straight away (and with the lowest centre of gravity), and allows suspension parts to be chosen based on their function, rather than to try and lift the car to get a tyre on (never a good reason to change suspension parts)

Just my 2c.

Steve.

[Pezooki]

^^^ X2 ^^^ (or "X eleventy gazillion" as Steve would say!)

Pez

[zookimal]

What Steve said.

Regarding the hard top vs soft top debate I've owned both and soft top is the way to go. But obviously you have to be prepared for it to get wet and dirty inside. Just accept it and build it to be hosed out. My hardtop is no more secure, dry or safe inside it than the soft top was (probably worse ), and due to fatigue around the a-pillars and a hard life I'm looking to rebody it with a soft top tub.