HHO kit - anyone investigated or installed

[KiwiBacon]

Yea I've read a few articles on a guy called Stan Meyer from USA who ran cars off tap water, apparently it took huge electricity to extract hydrogen from water, and this guy nutted it out, and got it working, then was found dead in his home icon_sad.gif.

If it was an oil company keeping him quiet, then this place is fked.

He probably died from drinking some of the "water" his car was running on.

[ISUZUROVER]

Personally I think it is BS or very close to BS, and certainly WITHOUT ANY DOUBT a net loss of energy.

But - what I think these systems are doing, is making something called "Brown's Gas" - which is a mixture of oxygen, hydrogen and water vapour. This is nothing new, and there are a few welding torches which have been designed to run on this stuff, as you can generate it anywhere you have enough electricity (and water) - no need to lug gas bottles.

Apparently, making Brown's gas takes slightly less energy than "normal" electrolysis (where you have a membrane to keep the O2 and H2 separate). But you are still losing energy.

A guy I work with, told me the other day he met someone who has a petrol car with one of these systems (designed and built himself). He claims his fuel economy has increased by 20%, however neither my colleage nor I have seen any facts.

However - I am sure that any economy gains - IF they exist - could never be over and above that which would be provided by water injection.

EDIT - here is some REAL R&D on water injection. This ACTUALLY works, not like the "HHO" and "water powered car" fairytales...
http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~rutland/ ... 1-2938.pdf

[Jimbo]

I just cant beleive that ch7,9 and 10 news have all shown these systems and their "inventors" and labelling their cars as Hybrids!!!!!!

What a crock of SH!T.

I have no doubt that mixing Hydrogen may increase efficiency but hardly the amount these ppl are talking about. These systems look like they produce 200ml of gas a minute......i'm sure that does a lot

[ISUZUROVER]

I just cant beleive that ch7,9 and 10 news have all shown these systems and their "inventors" and labelling their cars as Hybrids!!!!!!

What a crock of SH!T.

I have no doubt that mixing Hydrogen may increase efficiency but hardly the amount these ppl are talking about. These systems look like they produce 200ml of gas a minute......i'm sure that does a lot

Just like the people who claimed to have invented water powered cars, magnet powered cars, perpetual motion machines... etc... got their 2 minutes of fame on similar shows. RATINGS!

EVERYONE should read a book called Voodoo Science!

[Chucky]

The water powered car may or may not be real.

But there is a car running on northing but AIR


http://www.theaircar.com/acf/

Would still cost a fortune to run I recon.
Compressed air isn't that cheap to make.

[Guy]

The water powered car may or may not be real.

But there is a car running on northing but AIR


http://www.theaircar.com/acf/

Would still cost a fortune to run I recon.
Compressed air isn't that cheap to make.

Off peak electricity, rotary screw compressor ( way more efficient than piston jobbers) .. may be viable.

[ISUZUROVER]

The water powered car may or may not be real.

But there is a car running on northing but AIR


http://www.theaircar.com/acf/

Would still cost a fortune to run I recon.
Compressed air isn't that cheap to make.

Off peak electricity, rotary screw compressor ( way more efficient than piston jobbers) .. may be viable.

Not to mention a small electric compressor driven when braking or from solar power.

Makes as much sense as plug in electric vehicles.

[zagan]

im not interested in running onwater alone - i would have to think that is years away for a succesful result.

Just want to get amximum economy and to if what is out there works, from someone who had tried it

Dan

There's water powered cars by water I mean tap water, not anything else.

these havn't gotten much further than testing cars they have been on beyond 2000 etc, the people who make them say these cars have much more power than petrol or any sort of fuel you could use.

I some how get the feeling this isn't running on water but something else.

here's a water powered car on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWFbYz2zwRo

[KiwiBacon]

There's water powered cars by water I mean tap water, not anything else.

these havn't gotten much further than testing cars they have been on beyond 2000 etc, the people who make them say these cars have much more power than petrol or any sort of fuel you could use.

I some how get the feeling this isn't running on water but something else.

here's a water powered car on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWFbYz2zwRo

Man do I have some stuff to sell you.

[brad-chevlux]

just for the people that think it wont work.

http://www.fordmods.com/forums/boost-mi ... 59449.html

have a read. Garth it seems is doing the undoable

lol yes, he even got better fuel economy when the electrodes had broken off and it wasn't producing gas! Awesome system.

can't anywhere that he claimed he got economy while it was broken
all he said is that it was broken.

had a minor setback yesterday arvo - got home and checked cell, - no bubbles. Took it apart and found 1 electrode had broken at the connection inside cell.
So i rebuilt it with a different method to attach electrodes.
was just an experiment after all.
But i will keep on with it since results are very promising.

i find it strange that people are shown proof of it working yet still knock it.
garth made no changes to his car at after fitting his home made setup.
and it improved the milage.
you'll find if you read the whole thing he had a few problems with it. most of that thread is dealing with fixing them. but for a current draw of only 2 amps it's hardly going to hurt the charging system.
engery in vs. enerdy out, who cares so long as you get further on a tank of fuel and the cost of the system doesn't out weigh the saving on fuel.

[ISUZUROVER]

im not interested in running onwater alone - i would have to think that is years away for a succesful result.

Just want to get amximum economy and to if what is out there works, from someone who had tried it

Dan

There's water powered cars by water I mean tap water, not anything else.

these havn't gotten much further than testing cars they have been on beyond 2000 etc, the people who make them say these cars have much more power than petrol or any sort of fuel you could use.

I some how get the feeling this isn't running on water but something else.

here's a water powered car on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWFbYz2zwRo

You REALLY need to read voodoo science.

[zagan]

im not interested in running onwater alone - i would have to think that is years away for a succesful result.

Just want to get amximum economy and to if what is out there works, from someone who had tried it

Dan

There's water powered cars by water I mean tap water, not anything else.

these havn't gotten much further than testing cars they have been on beyond 2000 etc, the people who make them say these cars have much more power than petrol or any sort of fuel you could use.

I some how get the feeling this isn't running on water but something else.

here's a water powered car on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWFbYz2zwRo

You REALLY need to read voodoo science.

The best video of a water car would have been beyond 200 in the late 90's went to a USA company, 2 guys had invented a new engine that used plain water, it was sitting in a 4wd wagon, they were talking about a water car being easily 10x more powerful than a petrol based car.

but alas it's the same deal as with ethonal and bio-diesel, some people don't like nor want these fuels. the UN is calling for these fuels not to be made and is trying to get them banned from being put into production in western countries for the reason that it pushes up world food costs.

my thoughts is that using these home brand systems probably won't do anything as the water cars use large blocks of stuff that actually deplete over time and you can replace this block (service) and your on your way again.

So yes I do see your point and also I can't see how trickling in a bit of gas would increase the power or klms to a tank of fuel myself, so I do agree with you as you could see in that video the fuel tank isn't all that small and doesn't sit on the back seat for ease of filling also.

The other cars powered with air has also been on beyond 2000 but you needed air stations as they use a super compressed air system, so you can't use a air compressor to fill up the air car, so there would be a need for air stations all over the place.

You also have steam cars as well, which have been around well before the petrol motor was invented, it just never took off.

eletric cars is another, but you have the major problem of battery life and then charge time, so you end up with hybrids cars with a normal motor plus a bank of batteries.

there are other versions of water cars which don't use plain water and also require a water station that you'd have to fill up at, this is what the big car makers are really wanting to dump out into the market.

The biggest problem with all of them is the OPEC group they don't want people starting to use other fuels so now they are starting to dujmp out more oil again.

The real problem I can think of is that just about everything always requires some sort of fuel station that you must goto just to fill/charge up the car.

There's been heaps of different fuel powered cars going around the place it's only a matter of time before one pops up in the market and sells like hot cakes.

look at LPG you can goto a dealership and buy a straight LPG car now so it is starting slowly, you'd have plently of people saying years ago that you can't run a car on LPG nor put gas into a diesel engine.

solar could be the next thing if they can get better solar cells happening.

[ISUZUROVER]

The best video of a water car would have been beyond 200 in the late 90's went to a USA company, 2 guys had invented a new engine that used plain water, it was sitting in a 4wd wagon, they were talking about a water car being easily 10x more powerful than a petrol based car.

You are missing the key point - there can be no such thing as a "Water powered" car - it breaks the laws of thermodynamics. Which have NEVER been disproven.

So despite what was on television, there can be no such thing!

What you are describing is either smoke and mirrors, or some of the weird and wonderful things that have been developed over the years, such as the engine that worked by oxidising aluminium welding wire. Not really a feasible proposition. AND definitely not a water powered engine.

[KiwiBacon]

The best video of a water car would have been beyond 200 in the late 90's went to a USA company, 2 guys had invented a new engine that used plain water, it was sitting in a 4wd wagon, they were talking about a water car being easily 10x more powerful than a petrol based car.

You'd better keep quiet dude, big oil have some guys reading this post and they're tapping your connection RIGHT NOW.

I'm safe, they pay me off to say this stuff doesn't work.

[chimpboy]

just for the people that think it wont work.

http://www.fordmods.com/forums/boost-mi ... 59449.html

have a read. Garth it seems is doing the undoable

lol yes, he even got better fuel economy when the electrodes had broken off and it wasn't producing gas! Awesome system.

can't anywhere that he claimed he got economy while it was broken
all he said is that it was broken.

If you read what he said, it is clear that he doesn't know exactly when it broke, but it broke at some stage during the period when he was claiming he got better fuel economy.

had a minor setback yesterday arvo - got home and checked cell, - no bubbles. Took it apart and found 1 electrode had broken at the connection inside cell.
So i rebuilt it with a different method to attach electrodes.
was just an experiment after all.
But i will keep on with it since results are very promising.

i find it strange that people are shown proof of it working yet still knock it.

There is nothing even resembling proof in that material.

garth made no changes to his car at after fitting his home made setup.
and it improved the milage.
you'll find if you read the whole thing he had a few problems with it. most of that thread is dealing with fixing them. but for a current draw of only 2 amps it's hardly going to hurt the charging system.
engery in vs. enerdy out, who cares so long as you get further on a tank of fuel and the cost of the system doesn't out weigh the saving on fuel.

What you consistently get in these little reports is a guy who is driving an old banger, cobbles something together and then goes for a drive thinking "fuel economy fuel economy fuel economy fuel economy fuel economy" for the whole trip. He gets some improvements in fuel economy, most likely due to driving style but possibly also due to the fact that he's just been playing around with his air intake, filter etc for the first time in fifteen years.

Then the improvements start to disappear so he starts messing around with the timing or the carby and gets slight improvements again.

That is not "proof". The improvements have nothing to do with his nutella jar setup. It isn't even very clear whether he got any improvements anyway; we have very vague estimates of fuel economy before the "experiment", pulled right out of his arse, that noone could realistically trust, and imprecise measurements of fuel economy during the experiment. I can *easily* get a 30% difference in fuel economy by modifying my driving style. It's even easier if I subconsciously want to overestimate my fuel consumption before I rig up the nutella jar and then underestimate it post-nutella jar.

At the absolute best this guy has a poorly designed water injection system happening. But most likely he has nothing happening except wishful thinking.

I'm sorry but I hate to see people who are already feeling the pinch waste their money or get ripped off, and these stupid threads make that more likely to happen.

[Shadow]

i cant believe how many people fall for this type of shit.

If i told them I can make a Diff centre 30% stronger than a dana 60, and all I use is banana peel, they'd believe it.

[brad-chevlux]

just for the people that think it wont work.

http://www.fordmods.com/forums/boost-mi ... 59449.html

have a read. Garth it seems is doing the undoable

lol yes, he even got better fuel economy when the electrodes had broken off and it wasn't producing gas! Awesome system.

can't anywhere that he claimed he got economy while it was broken
all he said is that it was broken.

If you read what he said, it is clear that he doesn't know exactly when it broke, but it broke at some stage during the period when he was claiming he got better fuel economy.

had a minor setback yesterday arvo - got home and checked cell, - no bubbles. Took it apart and found 1 electrode had broken at the connection inside cell.
So i rebuilt it with a different method to attach electrodes.
was just an experiment after all.
But i will keep on with it since results are very promising.

i find it strange that people are shown proof of it working yet still knock it.

There is nothing even resembling proof in that material.

garth made no changes to his car at after fitting his home made setup.
and it improved the milage.
you'll find if you read the whole thing he had a few problems with it. most of that thread is dealing with fixing them. but for a current draw of only 2 amps it's hardly going to hurt the charging system.
engery in vs. enerdy out, who cares so long as you get further on a tank of fuel and the cost of the system doesn't out weigh the saving on fuel.

What you consistently get in these little reports is a guy who is driving an old banger, cobbles something together and then goes for a drive thinking "fuel economy fuel economy fuel economy fuel economy fuel economy" for the whole trip. He gets some improvements in fuel economy, most likely due to driving style but possibly also due to the fact that he's just been playing around with his air intake, filter etc for the first time in fifteen years.

Then the improvements start to disappear so he starts messing around with the timing or the carby and gets slight improvements again.

That is not "proof". The improvements have nothing to do with his nutella jar setup. It isn't even very clear whether he got any improvements anyway; we have very vague estimates of fuel economy before the "experiment", pulled right out of his arse, that noone could realistically trust, and imprecise measurements of fuel economy during the experiment. I can *easily* get a 30% difference in fuel economy by modifying my driving style. It's even easier if I subconsciously want to overestimate my fuel consumption before I rig up the nutella jar and then underestimate it post-nutella jar.

At the absolute best this guy has a poorly designed water injection system happening. But most likely he has nothing happening except wishful thinking.

I'm sorry but I hate to see people who are already feeling the pinch waste their money or get ripped off, and these stupid threads make that more likely to happen.

You have no more proof of it not working. Your whole story is bassed on "i think" not "i've done" a few years ago if you tried to tell some that LPG setup on a deisel could work, they'd have laughed in your face, now it's common pratice.

you can make his setup for a few dollars (average as it may be) if it doesn't work you've lost the money that you would have spent on posibly a couple cartons of beer, or dinner for two at a 3 star restruant. it's hardly enough to hurt those "feeling the pinch"

and what reason does he have to bullshit about it? it's not like he is trying to sell the stuff for living.


when you can %100 disprove it, come and show me.

[Shadow]

lol yes, he even got better fuel economy when the electrodes had broken off and it wasn't producing gas! Awesome system.

can't anywhere that he claimed he got economy while it was broken
all he said is that it was broken.

If you read what he said, it is clear that he doesn't know exactly when it broke, but it broke at some stage during the period when he was claiming he got better fuel economy.

had a minor setback yesterday arvo - got home and checked cell, - no bubbles. Took it apart and found 1 electrode had broken at the connection inside cell.
So i rebuilt it with a different method to attach electrodes.
was just an experiment after all.
But i will keep on with it since results are very promising.

i find it strange that people are shown proof of it working yet still knock it.

There is nothing even resembling proof in that material.

garth made no changes to his car at after fitting his home made setup.
and it improved the milage.
you'll find if you read the whole thing he had a few problems with it. most of that thread is dealing with fixing them. but for a current draw of only 2 amps it's hardly going to hurt the charging system.
engery in vs. enerdy out, who cares so long as you get further on a tank of fuel and the cost of the system doesn't out weigh the saving on fuel.

What you consistently get in these little reports is a guy who is driving an old banger, cobbles something together and then goes for a drive thinking "fuel economy fuel economy fuel economy fuel economy fuel economy" for the whole trip. He gets some improvements in fuel economy, most likely due to driving style but possibly also due to the fact that he's just been playing around with his air intake, filter etc for the first time in fifteen years.

Then the improvements start to disappear so he starts messing around with the timing or the carby and gets slight improvements again.

That is not "proof". The improvements have nothing to do with his nutella jar setup. It isn't even very clear whether he got any improvements anyway; we have very vague estimates of fuel economy before the "experiment", pulled right out of his arse, that noone could realistically trust, and imprecise measurements of fuel economy during the experiment. I can *easily* get a 30% difference in fuel economy by modifying my driving style. It's even easier if I subconsciously want to overestimate my fuel consumption before I rig up the nutella jar and then underestimate it post-nutella jar.

At the absolute best this guy has a poorly designed water injection system happening. But most likely he has nothing happening except wishful thinking.

I'm sorry but I hate to see people who are already feeling the pinch waste their money or get ripped off, and these stupid threads make that more likely to happen.

You have no more proof of it not working. Your whole story is bassed on "i think" not "i've done" a few years ago if you tried to tell some that LPG setup on a deisel could work, they'd have laughed in your face, now it's common pratice.

you can make his setup for a few dollars (average as it may be) if it doesn't work you've lost the money that you would have spent on posibly a couple cartons of beer, or dinner for two at a 3 star restruant. it's hardly enough to hurt those "feeling the pinch"

and what reason does he have to bullshit about it? it's not like he is trying to sell the stuff for living.


when you can %100 disprove it, come and show me.

100% disprove my banna peel diff first

[chimpboy]

when you can %100 disprove it, come and show me.

If you think about it, that is not the test you apply to stuff in your day-to-day life. You wouldn't last long if it was.

[-Scott-]

You have no more proof of it not working. Your whole story is bassed on "i think" not "i've done" a few years ago if you tried to tell some that LPG setup on a deisel could work, they'd have laughed in your face, now it's common pratice.

When you've ruled out all other possibilities then all that is left, no matter how unlikely, is the answer.

As chimpboy pointed out, there is not credible evidence that a system like this works. If it actually did something useful there would be credible scientific studies proving it, and there would be commercial kits on the market backed by the same studies.

Do not compare diesel/LPG fumigation with this. About the only thing the two systems have in common is an internal combustion engine, and your attempt to compare the two merely highlights your failure to understand the physics behind these "hydrobooster" systems.

[ISUZUROVER]

You have no more proof of it not working. Your whole story is bassed on "i think" not "i've done" a few years ago if you tried to tell some that LPG setup on a deisel could work, they'd have laughed in your face, now it's common pratice.

you can make his setup for a few dollars (average as it may be) if it doesn't work you've lost the money that you would have spent on posibly a couple cartons of beer, or dinner for two at a 3 star restruant. it's hardly enough to hurt those "feeling the pinch"

and what reason does he have to bullshit about it? it's not like he is trying to sell the stuff for living.


when you can %100 disprove it, come and show me.

Oh Please - can I sell you some Blinker Fluid as well??? A couple of Hyclones??? Electric turbo???

The outrageous claims made by these systems break the law of conservation of energy. Until you can diprove that then please STFU.

Rudolph diesel built the diesel engine to run on just about anything available. Go back to 1896 and I'm sure he wouldn't have laughed at you (for suggesting dieselgas).

If you really believe this works then go build one and prove us wrong. But do the before and after power and fuel consumption tests on a Dyno so you actually have some real proof.

[tweak'e]

Do not compare diesel/LPG fumigation with this. About the only thing the two systems have in common is an internal combustion engine, and your attempt to compare the two merely highlights your failure to understand the physics behind these "hydrobooster" systems.

while i think the systems are total BS (lots of claims but never any real info) part of the idea is correct.
it is the same as diesel/LPG, only it uses hydrogen/oxygen mix instead of LPG. now if you had bottled hydrogen the system would save you fuel just like LPG systems do. instead of diesel motor burning 80% fuel it now burns 95% fuel.
however they claim that the extra 15% of fuel thats burnt (that normal would go out the exhaust) generates more than enough power to split the water into the gas.
with a very poorly running motor that may actually be true. if you have a worn motor low on compression, poor timing etc, poor injectors etc that is only burning 50% of fuel then there is a big gain to be had and enough power made to convert the water.
however any normal motor that wouldn't be the case.

the other catch is what does it actually do in the motor. hydrogen is very prone to preignition and can burn well even when very lean. it may be a case these motors are basically preigniting. most motors will use less gas if you crank the timing right up but they also do not last long.

you would have to use very small amounts of hydrogen otherwise it will burn at its own rate and the motor will simply knock to hell and back, assuming it doesn't preignite and backfire up the intake.
keep the amount of hydrogen small enough it will be too lean to ignite on its own but then, going by the LPG systems, you won't have enough to promote better burning and get the claimed benefits.

hydrogen is a really poor fuel for IC motors.

in theory if the motor didn't burn fuel well to start with and you used just the right amount of power to split the water and poured in just the right amount of gas, it might actually work. however this would require fairly accurate gas metering and power control of the electrolysis ( plus temp control, safety systems etc). that would all be rather expencive.
would it be any better/cheaper/easier than just fixing the motor, upgradeing the vechile or doing other mods ?? i doubt it.

[KiwiBacon]

instead of diesel motor burning 80% fuel it now burns 95% fuel.

These claims are possibly the dumbest I have heard. To put 20% of your diesel out the exhaust results in a hell of a lot of smoke. Quite simply that doesn't happen unless you've got an engine on it's death bed.

the other catch is what does it actually do in the motor. hydrogen is very prone to preignition and can burn well even when very lean. it may be a case these motors are basically preigniting. most motors will use less gas if you crank the timing right up but they also do not last long.

There you've nailed it. Adding a gas which pre-ignites at the temps found in a petrol or diesel engine results in much faster combustion. Essentially advancing the timing which results in slightly higher efficiency and a massive amount more loading on the motor.
The snake gas generators sold for petrol EFI cars include kits to fool the ECU into running lean. Again not good for your engine at all but may save you some fuel.

Of course these snake gas generators aren't producing much hydrogen at all, they're mostly just boiling water.

[bazzle]

Think about this.
To make anything move it requires energy.
Energy can be in any form.
To make another source of fuel you need energy.
So all fuels are an energy source or made from another energy source.
The only way one can give better economy is IF it is converted more efficiently.

Bazzle

[Ben]

[V8Patrol]

Two old guys (retired mechanics ) about an hours drive from me have done a car........

Whilst its not 100% dedicated hydrogen is has certainly increased their milage from a single tank of ULP ( about 5 times the distance !! )

Biggest issue for them has been the volume of water they need to carry.... about 3 times the volume of water to the size of the petrol tank !!!

AC power works better in the electrolisis stage than DC does, they are using a 130amp alt thats now putting out AC instead of DC amps


As a non-beliver in this HH0 stuff I have to say.........

perhaps there is some truth to it all


Google time = Browns gas

[Gwagensteve]

There's so may laws of physics being bent or broken here its funny.

5 times the distance?

Let's say that before the car was getting 10l/100km... now they're getting 2L/100km... from water cracked into hydrogen by electrolysis form the alternator?

BMW have been running cars on 100% hydrogen for 20 years and even at 100% hydrogen with $millions spent in engineering, their engines are still way down on power and range compared to a petrol engine, and they're not trying to generate it as they drive.

If you could really supply 80% of a cars fuel needs with a 130A alternator and water, it would have been done many, many years ago. Electrolysis isn't a new technology.

I get about 1.8kw generated by a 130A alternator at 14 volts. There's some very tricky smoke an mirrors here if you think you can liberate enough hydrogen out of water with 1.8KW of electrolysis to generate lets say, 30kw of power when burnt. The physics just don't add up.

Ultimately, physics being physics, it's going to take more power to liberate the hydrogen from the water than the hydrogen will liberate when burnt. that's the major stumbling block of hydrogen as a fuel. If we are willing to accept nuclear power as environmentally responsible, then we can generate all the hydrogen we need with very little carbon emissions and almost eliminate our requirement for fossil fuels for transportation. It's easy.

Steve.

[KiwiBacon]

There's so may laws of physics being bent or broken here its funny.

5 times the distance?

They've turned their car from 25% efficient into 125% efficient. But not to worry, big oil will pay to shut them up soon and they'll disappear before offering proof.

BTW, it sounds like Brown was just as fraudulant as his gas. Smells like manure.

http://www.phact.org/e/bgas.htm

One name keeps popping up with all this crap. Dennis Lee.
Google that name and see what you find. L. Ron Hubbard would be proud of the deception here.

[ISUZUROVER]

There's so may laws of physics being bent or broken here its funny.

5 times the distance?

They've turned their car from 25% efficient into 125% efficient. But not to worry, big oil will pay to shut them up soon and they'll disappear before offering proof.

Well put guys!!!

All these guys have forgotten the immortal words of Scotty: "ye canna change the laws of physics"

And let's not get into the zero point energy people and the people who think that if you vibrate the water molecules at just the right frequency they split apart as if by magic.

[Guy]

There's so may laws of physics being bent or broken here its funny.

5 times the distance?

They've turned their car from 25% efficient into 125% efficient. But not to worry, big oil will pay to shut them up soon and they'll disappear before offering proof.

Well put guys!!!

All these guys have forgotten the immortal words of Scotty: "ye canna change the laws of physics"

And let's not get into the zero point energy people and the people who think that if you vibrate the water molecules at just the right frequency they split apart as if by magic.

I saw it on a movie .. it had Morgan Freeman in it .. Therefore it must be true .