Formula Suzuki Brainstorm

[greg]

Since it is becoming apparent that the people who you are trying to appeal to are those that already have their cars pumped up to a certain degree, i would propose that having two classes is definately going to be the easiest way to run it NAM.

i.e. Completely Open, and Restricted to certain mods...

that way you cater for both degrees of people, everyone can compete with their existing vehicles (regardless of modifications already performed on them), and if you don't have a whiz bang truck - you can still compete in the Restricted class.

too easy

If this is the path we chose to take - then rather than trying to come up with rules that won't see yourself being kicked out of a class due to wrong engine type, wrong suspension type etc - then lets work out what the restricted rules should be (knowing that anyone can compete in the open class)...

what do people think?

I know this will mean more rules, but i think it will be easier than banning the people who are going to set it all up from competing.

[redzook]

we are goin to struggle to run 1 class u wont have enough people to run 2 classes

[greg]

we are goin to struggle to run 1 class u wont have enough people to run 2 classes

This is half the point of having two classes though.

yes you are correct - there will be minimal numbers, but it also means that the lower entry class will allow everyday people, with low level cars to enter easily...

like having different classes in other sporting events - it allows more competitors of different levels of skill and equipment etc...

[redzook]

here is a few zuk pics not 33's though

[Guy]

I agree about the 50mm thing should be deleted but maintain leaves or coils depending on original factory style

Yeah that sounds good .. "origional factory style" ... "style" being the important bit ...

I was just tossing idea's about .. trying to get a reasonble idea of what the majority want and put it into a list \


Also i would not worry about the super modded trucks winning .. as you most of you will well know the further you depart from factory specs the more likely you are to break .. and a broken truck with no go is not going to win ..

[Guy]

here is a few zuk pics not 33's though

How about some Aussie trucks on Aussie tracks ..

[grimbo]

There are ways around different spec cars competing on the same tracks. if you get into different classes then you have to run different courses as your first option or this option which is something I have been wanting to do for a while.

Set out say 20 gates that must be driven in a certain direction, but with no bunting etc to define the line required. The gates are ranked from say 5 - 10 with 10 the hardest. Each car starts with a clean slate.

You are allowed a total of 10 regoes at the obstacles (so that could be 10 on the one obstacle or 1 at 10 different obstacles) if you use up your 10 regoes you are out and your points will be totalled at that point.

For stock cars you get 5 extra regoes and 4 double points The double points have to be nominated before driving, if you don't make it no points

you get the idea work on a sliding scale of bonus points and regoes til you get to the cars setup with the maximum mods.


Cars should be kept to the guidelines already mentioned.

[redzook]

ok i went through an got most of the rules

- Base vehicle SWB
- 1.3L carby only
- Sierra axles only
- Rockhoppers acceptable
- 34" tyres max As specifed on the tyre sidewall
- 5.12:1 R&P max
- All lockers okay
- Leaf suspension only
- SPOA okay
- 3/4 elliptical okay
- Standard steering box only
- High steer okay
- roll cage 4pt?
- No winching?
- No wheel spacers
- No beadlocks
- Maximum wb 85inch
- Stock fuel tank location
- Max 3 inch Bodylift
- Trackbar / panhards allowed

hows this sound to every 1?
anything more to add to the list?
take away anything from the list?

[droopypete]

COMEON lets get a time an place for round zero

I thought NAM already identified this coming saturday at Gemrbook for the road zero

Followed up with a bbq at droopy pete's place


edit: added bbq plan

Sounds good to me.
Peter.

[droopypete]

Is that where the wet T/Shirt comp will be

Might be a bit complicated to get going due to water restrictions - we'd better hold that after 7pm

No problem I have a pool .
Peter.

[droopypete]

Is that where the wet T/Shirt comp will be

Might be a bit complicated to get going due to water restrictions - we'd better hold that after 7pm

That depends on who is competing ... if Big Steve and Pete are in it .. we may need to get a permist from the council to use that much water
If it's me and you Gerg .. I am sure two small glasses of water would be fine ..

Guy, you are thinking of the wet speedo's comp maybe?
Peter.

[droopypete]

Gimbo said,
Quote,
Droopypete do you still have contacts within the mud pigs?
Unquote.

Yes but all the propertys are organised by the promoters, they would not be interested in a bunch of shmucks like us.

And while we are on the subject of the AFWDMRA, I was one of the original members, infact I was the first member, I was there in the early days drafting the first rule book, ( this whole thread is like dajavu to me).

We spent months writing the rules and then the club spent the next 5 years ripping them to bits, with self interest being the main motivation behind every amendment, it was a very devisive time, paddle tyres, methanol, tube frames, cup holders, super chargers, nitrious oxide, 4,6&8 cyl or 2L, 4L, 6L and above were all sugested and fought for with the passion and conviction of a life and death situation. it was one of the reasons I got out.

The point I am making is,
set your rules and stick to them,
make them hard and fast where they need to be, eg max tyre, engine capacity and so on,
make them loose were it dosent matter, eg tread style, engine internals, wide track/narrow track, 50mm/100mm it is not a big deal.

Leaving rules loose enough that a clever engineer can gain an advantage over his competition is how a sport advances, but tight enough so that it restricts cheque book racing (you can mever compleatly eliminate it ).
Peter.

[droopypete]

ok i went through an got most of the rules

- Base vehicle SWB
- 1.3L carby only
- Sierra axles only
- Rockhoppers acceptable
- 34" tyres max As specifed on the tyre sidewall
- 5.12:1 R&P max
- All lockers okay
- Leaf suspension only
- SPOA okay
- 3/4 elliptical okay
- Standard steering box only
- High steer okay
- roll cage 4pt?
- No winching?
- No wheel spacers
- No beadlocks
- Maximum wb 85inch
- Stock fuel tank location
- Max 3 inch Bodylift
- Trackbar / panhards allowed

hows this sound to every 1?
anything more to add to the list?
take away anything from the list?

Sounds good to me, I especialy liked the 4 point roll bar bit, everyone goes straight to the full CAMS 6 pointer with the wanker harness seat belts, these things would be essential if,
1, we were traveling at high speed,
2, our cars weighed more than 800KG.
If you picked the average patrol up by the wheels and dropped from 5 feet in the air, the car would colapse under its own mass (2500KG)
do the same thing with a zook and it my still colapse but it would not be from it's mass more like it's coke can panels that make it so light in the first place.
Peter.

[Guy]

Is that where the wet T/Shirt comp will be

Might be a bit complicated to get going due to water restrictions - we'd better hold that after 7pm

That depends on who is competing ... if Big Steve and Pete are in it .. we may need to get a permit from the council to use that much water
If it's me and you Gerg .. I am sure two small glasses of water would be fine ..

Guy, you are thinking of the wet speedo's comp maybe?
Peter.

Perhaps ...

[Beastmavster]

Is that where the wet T/Shirt comp will be

Might be a bit complicated to get going due to water restrictions - we'd better hold that after 7pm

That depends on who is competing ... if Big Steve and Pete are in it .. we may need to get a permit from the council to use that much water
If it's me and you Gerg .. I am sure two small glasses of water would be fine ..

Guy, you are thinking of the wet speedo's comp maybe?
Peter.

Perhaps ...

Ummmm.... howabout Vitaras with stock IFS get 1600 cc?

Still 31"s for all.

[Guy]

Anyone want to buy a set of 35 inch claws or trade for some 34's ..

Also one worked 1.6 for trade on a real good 1.3 ??

[greg]

Ummmm.... howabout Vitaras with stock IFS get 1600 cc?

Still 31"s for all.

Sorry mate - you'll need to down grade your engine to a 1.3L

[redzook]

Ummmm.... howabout Vitaras with stock IFS get 1600 cc?

Still 31"s for all.

Sorry mate - you'll need to down grade your engine to a 1.3L

and then buy a sierra

[greg]

Since you have a max wheelbase length, should a max width be set... that would allow you to remove the rules for wheel spacers so that people with narrow track sierras can even themselves up with the widetracks, but people with widetracks can't go any wider?

I know it's just splitting hairs - but it makes things more achievable to people with NT cars (which are of course - the cheaper option to be playing with)...

[Guy]

The max width is already limited by tyre size .. unless you can find some terra tyres that are like 33 tal by 20 wide .. or if they reallyu want to be wider .. why not run wide track diffs .. nothing to say they cant do that the rules simply say. - Sierra axles only

If they geta cheaper NT vehicle .. then they can spring for a set of WT diffs (most likely cheaper option than wheel spacers anyway)

[thaoldman]

Nam, if you are really serious about this idea than you might wish to speak to some of the guys from the NSW Suzuki club, in particular the president, David (or rc211e on this board).
We have used a similar classing system at a recent club event and i think it went well. We have talked together up here about a suzuki only event and believe that there would be enough interest once it was organised, but getting it together would be a long hard road.
PM me if you want me to send you David's mobile/email addy.

[Dozoor]

Hope you can do somthing here nam !

I think the tire size issue is one of the most important ,

I would like to see 31s as the limit , If your's are to big or you don't have a set i reckon you'll get some second hand for under $300

This is the most available second hand , you only need 7" rim and thats legal on your zook . The budget guys can even sqeeze a set onto there ,5.5s if they want.

Rim size- and offset Free ,
Tire size- Tire should fit within a 31" gauge.
Tires must be oz standard approved.
Wheel base- should be swb as factory, although it may be moved foward or back via suspension links - springs ,But must retian the factory wheelbase dimensions

Lift height- determined at chassis rails ,suspension configuration free
Must be 1.3 carby or 1ltr carby, but type and number of carbys and size free.

Gearbox free,

Transfer case or cases free.

Diffs as from factory SJ type , eg wide track , narrow track 1.3, Or even 1ltr diffs , Should somone want to fit one litre diffs to there wide or vice a versa this is acceptable.

diff ratios suzuki factory items that fit the housing used , eg vit 5'1s ok in 1.3 housings, lj gears in 1ltr housings ect.

Lsd and locking of diffs free.

Rear disk conversions ok. must have operable handbrake.

Vehicle body should be of factory appearance swb soft or hardtop, gaurds may be raduised
to allow clearance ,

Front and rear bumper bars are free.

Front parkers and rear tail light are free.

Been thru this before , As some guys have stated the ultimate goal would be to create a set of rules that are resonably open yet retian the original
looks of the vehicle to some extent .

With the addition of certian rules you can limit the check book style approach to some extent yet leave some room for creativity in the suspension and gearing area, although the hieght limit at the chassis rials creates the possability of still being competetive with an origanal style configuration .

I think it would be possible for a handy type dude to biuld a competitive vehicle within these rules for as low as $2500-3000.
Trying to be an entry level comp yet create rules that won't out some of the already built cars.
You could bring Jimnys, LJ,s and vits in under the same rules with certian changes,Fuel inj ect. for vehicle type.
The tire size,wheelbase and chassis hieght being the ultimate equalizer.

Just my Thoughts.
Larry.

[Dozoor]

[Squik]

I havent read through the whole thing yet, time doesnt allow, but what about Jimnys, would they qualify? ......my series 1 isnt even a twin cam.....just a 1.3

[N*A*M]

doesn't david read/post much on here?

please pm me his email address. i'm sure his advice would be most useful.

[grimbo]

I reckon factory configured Suzkis should be eligible. Ie LJs, Sierras (1 Litre -1.3 litre, NT or WT, SWB or LWB), Jimnys and Vitaras. Let them all battle it out I still reckon a 33" max tyre size tho

[Beastmavster]

I reckon factory configured Suzkis should be eligible. Ie LJs, Sierras (1 Litre -1.3 litre, NT or WT, SWB or LWB), Jimnys and Vitaras. Let them all battle it out I still reckon a 33" max tyre size tho

31" is the most sensible tyre limit.... cheapest size, allows the vehicle to run on that size rubber pretty cheap and usually legally.

By factory configured I assume that you mean that the vehicle must keep same suspension, engine and wheelbase config...so no extended wheelbases on shorties, no solid axles in Vitaras and no Vitara engines in 1 litres.


Would you also apply this to stop people putting widetrack axles in their NT LWB - otherwise LWB with WT axles will soon dominate the event, unless careful stage planning stopped them.

I like the idea of this as it allows some variations in the configurations.... eg seeing an IFS 1.6 Carby Vit against a 1.3 Widetrack versus a 1.3 injected Jimny... they're all going to want to take a slightly different line over some obstacles, even before we apply LWB variants.

Each has it's own strengths and weaknesses which the drivers will have to work around.... For instance the Vitara will have the best power due to the 1.6, but the worst suspension (IFS) and gearing. The EFI Coily and Jimny have fuel injection which should help on certain steep climbs and ledges, but have issues regarding aftermarket parts availability and transfer case issues.

I still think it'd be fun watching but the LWB 1.3 sierras will win. At least there will be more than one way to modify the vehicles if you have it open to a couple of different variants... that way the second round will have different configs than the guy who won the first round.

This is what makes nations cup so good and v8 supercars so crap.

[-Mick-]

Phew.... Read all 8 pages

I still think it'd be fun watching but the LWB 1.3 sierras will win.

Should be (and was intended me thinks) SWB only

This sounds pretty cool I think the last list of specs was pretty comprehensive too. Perhaps another way of approaching it would be to set a $ value at which you would like to see someone able to enter the comp. Should be for rig + parts only as the onus should be on built not bought.

ie a budget of 3k or a budget of 6k to get up and going would give way different rigs

[Dozoor]

If you check those rules out , most guys that have heavily moded rigs could just change there springs and tires and go compete, after the comp
they can replace there springs and tires in a few hours.
Is a bit like other motor sport where they actually have to run the exact same tire This makes it pretty hard to get a distinct advantage.

Grimbo , I run 32s and 35s , I won,t even look at a bog hole comp on 32s,
But If you wan,t the jimnys and vits in, then 31s would be the best chioce
Its pretty hard to fit anything bigger on a jimny without huge lift .
sure they can chop them up but ha , there still pretty valauble on the market,

Im not to worried about engine size or fuel injection , To be honest
In all the time ive competed the only place i have wanted more power is on the road, Once you gear the car right Get the carb right your laughing.

Rockhoppers are available for vits and jimnys.

Nam , I can see this being beneficial to zooks in general, The limitations
would see the original looking zook package being pushed to limit of its ability,If you havn,t already got in touch with David Pm me and i,ll get some info for you.
Larry.

Mj , By way of the chassis rial measurment of ride hieght ,this will keep both swb and lwb about even , eg : lwb will hang up on brake over clearance , yet be more stable on super steep stuff .

I still think it'd be fun watching but the LWB 1.3 sierras will win.

Im keen Id like to see that

[N*A*M]

great posts larry. plenty of brain food there.

i'm going to approach david via email on monday.