351 cleveland. Weak Spark.

[CanberraMav]

Ive got a 351c in my 60 series on straight LPG.

The spark ive been told is weak and is causing a splutter at low RPM's.

Ive had similar problems with my Patrol on straight LPG and I fixed it
With a Pertronix kit.

Because the 60 is going to tow a heavy load ie car trailer im not sure if ill get enough gains from the Pertronix and im thinking of going a MSD or similar.

Can anyone recommend any brands that don’t cost too much (ice for example $1000+).

Do you think ill get away with just the pertronix?

Motor is standard with towing cam.

I should mention at the moment it just has a points distributor.

[1MadEngineer]

make sure the wiring to the coil is adequate, get a crane ps91 coil and gap the plugs to 40thou.

[ozrunner]

Get rid of that points distributor

I'd suggest visiting a performance shop as they have replacement electronic distributors etc a lot cheaper than $1k. I'd go for a Mallory etc but stay away from Pro Comp.

I know nothing of Pertronix and they maybe great but compare costs against Mallory etc who have been doing this for years.

Also google search the US shops as I got a new Mallory Ford 5.0W TFi distributor for $350 delivered

.

[hotrod4x4]

for a basic motor, just grab a decent electronic dizzy with a strong coil.
it will give you much better spark over a points setup

don't forget there's alot of later factory electronics for the clevo's that would be cheap. The only difference between early and late dizzy is the shaft size, which you can run a sleeve to fix that issue.

[want33s]

I wouldn't touch Mallory with a 10 foot pole. Seen too many faulty ones.. The only thing worse than Mallory is ProComp.
I highly recommend MSD distributors especially the billet series. Not cheap though.

If your budget is tight, a Pertronix kit with a suitable coil will cost a lot less and make a big difference over points.
You don't say if your Clevo is a blue or a black. Distributors are slightly different. If its a blue, the best stock dissy is one out of an XC with the big seperate ignition module. They are a bit hard to find now so if you can't get onel ook on Ebay.com(USA) and find a Ford Duraspark unit with module out of a 429-460.
If its a black get one out of an XE.

Might be a good opportunity here... Get a decent electronic distributor and get it regraphed to suit your cam to maximise the power and torque.
Jas.

[CanberraMav]

Thanks for the info.

Ill check out Ebay in the US and see what I can find.

My motor is a blue block. I might price up a MSD ignition locally and see what the damage is.

[jessie928]

Thanks for the info.

Ill check out Ebay in the US and see what I can find.

My motor is a blue block. I might price up a MSD ignition locally and see what the damage is.

mate the falcons came with electronic distributors in the later models with 302/351 engines. just get one of these or a replica on ebay for under 200$.

JEs

[berad]

Get rid of that points distributor

I'd suggest visiting a performance shop as they have replacement electronic distributors etc a lot cheaper than $1k. I'd go for a Mallory etc but stay away from Pro Comp.

I know nothing of Pertronix and they maybe great but compare costs against Mallory etc who have been doing this for years.

Also google search the US shops as I got a new Mallory Ford 5.0W TFi distributor for $350 delivered

.

x2 for electronic dizzy

[CanberraMav]

Ive read a few comments about staying away from Pro comp now.

I have an electronic dizzy here but apparently it fits but will damage the cam?

Im going to price up MSD today.

I saw the $200 replica's etc but id rather do it properly the first time.

[want33s]

Ive read a few comments about staying away from Pro comp now.

I have an electronic dizzy here but apparently it fits but will damage the cam?

Im going to price up MSD today.

I saw the $200 replica's etc but id rather do it properly the first time.

The difference between blue and black Clevo's is the distributor.. The bottom of the shaft is different.
Blue motors are 0.531" whereas black motors are 0.500"
A blue dist. shaft can be turned down to fit a black but a black will be very sloppy in a blue and may damage the cam. They can be bushed but it involves machining the block too.
The cam will be fine if you turn the dissy down. The drive gear is the same externally just a different bore diameter.
Jas.

[CanberraMav]

Ive got a MSD package on its way.

Ill you know how it goes when i install it. Not exactly cheap but hopefully will make a huge difference.

Im getting really bad mileage at the moment as well. I think i got 190km out of 90lt of gas. It did spend a fair bit of time in the driveway idling etc but still really bad.

Ill put up new consumption figures as well when its installed. I think half the gas is passing through without getting burned.

J

[want33s]

My XA ute 351 runs a MSD Pro billet dual pickup dissy and a HVC coil with a 7AL2 ignition.
I don't know about fuel economy improvements cause on the rare occaisions I drive it, I drive it like its stolen. I reckon it goes better and it starts and idles much better.

If you want to maximise the power and economy get the dissy professionally setup (graphed) to suit your engine.
The MSD package comes with several different weight advance springs to do this.
I'd also think about fitting 1 or maybe twin GasResearch gas carbs. They can be bolted on in place of a 4 barrel.
Jas.

[CanberraMav]

Its currently got a Impco gas carb on it with a E type converter.

Im getting the MSD 8350. Apparently this is the best appilication for what i need. (says rocket ind).

Do you think running a GT40 coil with this will be OK?

I asked for HEI but this is what they reckon...... any opinions on this?

[want33s]

Its currently got a Impco gas carb on it with a E type converter.

Im getting the MSD 8350. Apparently this is the best appilication for what i need. (says rocket ind).

Do you think running a GT40 coil with this will be OK?

I asked for HEI but this is what they reckon...... any opinions on this?

I don't think a bosch unit is correct. A MSD Blaster coil might be right but I'm unsure.
Best to ask the tech guys at MSD. They really know their shit and are very helpful.
http://www.msdignition.com/1support.htm

[CanberraMav]

I actually did contact them but of coarse they will tell me that their product is better because blah bla.

I was going to get one of the Pertronix coils at one stage until someone said they are a gimmick and that a GT40 is as good as anything.

Anyone know anything about coils?

Ill post MSD's reply if i get one.

[PGS 4WD]

The HEI distributor does fit and wont damage the camshaft proivided you use the correct one(it may require modifying), there is an early an late block, the difference being the size of the hole the bottom of the distributor shaft goes into, one is slightly over 1/2 inch and one is slightly under. a 1/2 inch drill bit in the hole will tell you what you have.
The ICE ignition is far better (look into engine masters competition in the U.S.A. where the ICE ignition engine crap on the MSD) and its Australian made and designed.

Joel

[CanberraMav]

My setup is not really a high performance setup though so MSD even if its not as good as ICE will be way better than what i already have.

Do you know much about coils and whether its worth upgrading from the GT40?

Is the distributor im getting just a glorified electronic job or is it actually a HEI?

Im really not above all this electrical biz.

[brad-chevlux]

My setup is not really a high performance setup though so MSD even if its not as good as ICE will be way better than what i already have.

Do you know much about coils and whether its worth upgrading from the GT40?

Is the distributor im getting just a glorified electronic job or is it actually a HEI?

Im really not above all this electrical biz.

The dizzy you are getting is just an electronic job (HEI is just what the manufacturers call thier electronic setups)
all it stands for is High Energy Ignition.
The bonus is you can very easily change to advance curve.


Chuck the GT40 coil in the bin, go and buy and an MSD blaster 3
(pn. 8223) about $95. acutaly don't chuck it in the bin, leave it on so you can do a befor and after test of the spark output. You'll be supriesed at the difference.

[PGS 4WD]

The best coil performance will come from the one designed to work with your electronic igniton. A GT40 or GT40R are ponits coils designed with relatively high primary resistances so they don't draw too much current and burn points. The GT40R is designed to run at about 10v for use with a ballast resistor.

The problems with some of the cheaper Electronic systems is that the output is low, the modules can be unreliable (take a spare) and the advance weights wear on the pins which causes erratic timing and eventual failure of the mechanical advance.

Cheers

Joel

[want33s]

The dizzy you are getting is just an electronic job (HEI is just what the manufacturers call thier electronic setups)
all it stands for is High Energy Ignition.
The bonus is you can very easily change to advance curve.


Chuck the GT40 coil in the bin, go and buy and an MSD blaster 3
(pn. 8223) about $95. acutaly don't chuck it in the bin, leave it on so you can do a befor and after test of the spark output. You'll be supriesed at the difference.

HEI stands for Hall Effect Ignition....
http://autorepair.about.com/library/glo ... ef-291.htm

http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/Counterpoint3_1.pdf

MSD doesn't use HEI (with the shutter blade setup)..... it is magnetic.

Jas.

[PGS 4WD]

The dizzy you are getting is just an electronic job (HEI is just what the manufacturers call thier electronic setups)
all it stands for is High Energy Ignition.
The bonus is you can very easily change to advance curve.


Chuck the GT40 coil in the bin, go and buy and an MSD blaster 3
(pn. 8223) about $95. acutaly don't chuck it in the bin, leave it on so you can do a befor and after test of the spark output. You'll be supriesed at the difference.

HEI stands for Hall Effect Ignition....
http://autorepair.about.com/library/glo ... ef-291.htm

http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/pdf/Counterpoint3_1.pdf

MSD doesn't use HEI (with the shutter blade setup)..... it is magnetic.

Jas.

HEI stands for High Energy Ignition, it is a Bosch term used in regards to the ignition systems on VC to VL V8 and VC to some (VK carby) others had EST. Also used on XD to XF carby 4.2 and XD-XE 302 and 351 Clevo. The HEI system isn't a Hall effect but actually a reluctor that generates a voltage, open one and you will see the spikes on the reluctor wheel that generates an electric pulse to trigger the module. Hall effects generate a square wave and requires a voltage source input to operate.
There are some aftermarket systems available now that have a Hall Effect trigger but these require a different module to the traditional HEI

Cheers

Joel

[brad-chevlux]

either way, there is no point in upgrading from a points dizzy any type of electronic dizzy without upgrading the coil.

in this case, the blaster 3 is the coil to use with that msd dizzy

[CanberraMav]

MSD ignition in using blaster 2 coil.

World of difference. Heaps better through all rev ranges.

The switch wire for the thermo fans has been wired to the positive of the coil. The fans decided they would come on with the car and reds turned off

Does this mean im getting random power to the coil with the ignition off?

[want33s]

You could be yeah...
Sounds like some electrical dramas there but thats another story...
I would run the thermo off a temp switch in the top hose or at least through a relay hooked to the oil pressure switch so fan stops if there is no oil pressure and fan comes on when there is pressure.
Jas.

[brad-chevlux]

MSD ignition in using blaster 2 coil.

World of difference. Heaps better through all rev ranges.

The switch wire for the thermo fans has been wired to the positive of the coil. The fans decided they would come on with the car and reds turned off

Does this mean im getting random power to the coil with the ignition off?

grab your self an thermo switch from a 1990 modle ford laser,
drill and tap it into your thermostat housing and use it to earth switch a realy, that will have the fans running only when you need them.
It's a good idea to use an ignition switched power for the relay too.
something like the cig lighter wiring.


Never use the coil wiring to power anything but a coil.


How did you set the advance curve in the dizzy? or did you leaveit as it came? the curve for LPG is different to that for petrol.

[CanberraMav]

The guys that put the dizzy in for me went off the instructions on the box so should be all set up for the LPG.

The thermos i have are hooked up through a thermostat run into the top hose of the radiator. Ill take the accesories off the coil and run it to something else.

Its really weird because i have the thermos run through 2 relays. When they were wired completely off the battery and only controlled by thero switch the relays would stick on and and never turn off until you hit the relays. When i hooked them up to the positve on the ballast they were fine. When hooked up to positive on coil they turn on randomly when car is completely off.

Some weird stuff happening

[brad-chevlux]

The guys that put the dizzy in for me went off the instructions on the box so should be all set up for the LPG.

The thermos i have are hooked up through a thermostat run into the top hose of the radiator. Ill take the accesories off the coil and run it to something else.

Its really weird because i have the thermos run through 2 relays. When they were wired completely off the battery and only controlled by thero switch the relays would stick on and and never turn off until you hit the relays. When i hooked them up to the positve on the ballast they were fine. When hooked up to positive on coil they turn on randomly when car is completely off.

Some weird stuff happening

for LPG i'd have put the blue springs in, used the black advance stopper and set the base timing at about 15 degrees, giving a total mechanical advance of about 30degree. (each dizzy seems to be a little different, but only be one or two degrees)

depending on the dizzy, you may also have an adjustable vacuum advance aswell. but thats someting thats need to be played with over a month or two to get right

[CanberraMav]

I have no idea what springs they used in it but it it flattens out a bit in the higher revs compared to before.

Base timing is at about 8-10 degrees at the moment.

Have you setup a cleveland this way before?

Ive checked the box and there are 2 silver and 2 blue springs left over. There is also a red, silver and black stopper left over. Im not entirely sure what they provided in the first place. I might check the dizzy tomorrow if its not raining.

It runs no vacuum advance at all.

[brad-chevlux]

I have no idea what springs they used in it but it it flattens out a bit in the higher revs compared to before.

Base timing is at about 8-10 degrees at the moment.

Have you setup a cleveland this way before?

Ive checked the box and there are 2 silver and 2 blue springs left over. There is also a red, silver and black stopper left over. Im not entirely sure what they provided in the first place. I might check the dizzy tomorrow if its not raining.

It runs no vacuum advance at all.

they come from MSD with the blue stoper fitted, wich is the second biggest, just under the black one.

There are three types of spring, light silver, blue and heavy silver.
they come fitted with the two heavy silver ones. this gives a very slow advance curve. (this is msd making sure that people don't hurt thier engines)
the light silver ones are use a similar diameter wire as the blue ones, the heavy silver much larger. It will be quite obvious if the have taken the heavy springs out.


http://www.msdignition.com/pdf/8350_835 ... m23728.pdf

just incase you don't have the booklet that comes with it, the advance setup is one page 3.

[CanberraMav]

So given the parts list on the site im guessing i run:

Blue stopper.

2 x light silver springs.

According to the chart

8 degrees base timing plus 21 degrees with blue stopper so total of 29 degrees.

Is this setup not ideal for LPG?

Thanks for your help